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Old August 24th 07, 06:36 AM posted to uk.transport.london
Bob Bob is offline
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

Tube station revamp on the cards if route is split in two

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/08230...082307_17.html

quote
Congestion fears as transport chiefs investigate changes to ageing
Northern Line

CAMDEN Town Tube station is being eyed up for redevelopment again - as
Transport for London finalise plans to split the Northern Line into
two separate routes.
Planners believe creating two distinct services would allow more
trains to run every hour.
The strategy follows a series of private meetings at TfL over the
summer which has seen the plans discussed at the highest level.
Its success, however, hinges on Camden Town underground station - the
congested stop where the two parts of the Northern Line overlap -
being redeveloped.
A draft document reveals how one branch would run from Edgware to
Kennington, while another would go from High Barnet through to
Morden.
TfL believe this would allow them to increase capacity from around 20
trains per hour to as many as 30.
John Prescott, the former deputy prime minister, threw out plans to
redevelop Camden Town station in 2005.
Transport chiefs had wanted to seize land surrounding the station to
build a seven-storey tower of shops and flats. Market traders who
would have lost their stalls, the neighbouring Electric Ballroom
nightclub, residents and Camden Council opposed the plan.
A TfL spokesman said: "We would need to refurbish the station to make
it (split the Northern Line) possible, and that would cost a lot of
money. This is a long-term aspiration. We think this would be a good
thing for the Northern Line."
He added that the current station lay-out could not cope with the
extra traffic and that TfL were currently looking into how feasible
the plans were.
The spokesman added: "The Northern Line is one of the most challenging
on the network in terms of its age, how much it is used and its
design."
Critics say splitting the line is unworkable and will lead to
dangerous numbers of people changing at Camden Town.
Conservative Greater London Authority member for Camden and Barnet
Brian Coleman said: "This will lead to trouble at Camden Town. It will
take at least five to 10 years to redevelop the station and I have
heard TfL want to do this as soon as possible. It will make Camden
Town unbearably busy, and people do not want to be forced into
changing at Camden Town."
He added: "It is a cover for reducing the service. The service was run
like this in the past and they changed it to increase trains. Why
would it work the other way round?"
Andrew Bosi, of transport pressure group Friends of Capital Transport,
said the jury was out on whether it would improve the service.
He said: "The sticking point is congestion. When they wanted to
increase the size of the Tube station there before they were too
greedy - they wanted to take half of Camden with them.
"However, if they do plan to have more people changing there, they
will have to work out a way of making sure the station can cope."

unquote

Maybe an ELL extension beyond Finsbury Park could prove useful after
all?


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Old August 24th 07, 07:14 AM posted to uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On Aug 24, 7:36 am, Bob wrote:
Tube station revamp on the cards if route is split in two

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/08230...082307_17.html

quote
Congestion fears as transport chiefs investigate changes to ageing
Northern Line

CAMDEN Town Tube station is being eyed up for redevelopment again - as
Transport for London finalise plans to split the Northern Line into
two separate routes.
Planners believe creating two distinct services would allow more
trains to run every hour.
The strategy follows a series of private meetings at TfL over the
summer which has seen the plans discussed at the highest level.
Its success, however, hinges on Camden Town underground station - the
congested stop where the two parts of the Northern Line overlap -
being redeveloped.
A draft document reveals how one branch would run from Edgware to
Kennington, while another would go from High Barnet through to
Morden.
TfL believe this would allow them to increase capacity from around 20
trains per hour to as many as 30.
John Prescott, the former deputy prime minister, threw out plans to
redevelop Camden Town station in 2005.
Transport chiefs had wanted to seize land surrounding the station to
build a seven-storey tower of shops and flats. Market traders who
would have lost their stalls, the neighbouring Electric Ballroom
nightclub, residents and Camden Council opposed the plan.
A TfL spokesman said: "We would need to refurbish the station to make
it (split the Northern Line) possible, and that would cost a lot of
money. This is a long-term aspiration. We think this would be a good
thing for the Northern Line."
He added that the current station lay-out could not cope with the
extra traffic and that TfL were currently looking into how feasible
the plans were.
The spokesman added: "The Northern Line is one of the most challenging
on the network in terms of its age, how much it is used and its
design."
Critics say splitting the line is unworkable and will lead to
dangerous numbers of people changing at Camden Town.
Conservative Greater London Authority member for Camden and Barnet
Brian Coleman said: "This will lead to trouble at Camden Town. It will
take at least five to 10 years to redevelop the station and I have
heard TfL want to do this as soon as possible. It will make Camden
Town unbearably busy, and people do not want to be forced into
changing at Camden Town."
He added: "It is a cover for reducing the service. The service was run
like this in the past and they changed it to increase trains. Why
would it work the other way round?"
Andrew Bosi, of transport pressure group Friends of Capital Transport,
said the jury was out on whether it would improve the service.
He said: "The sticking point is congestion. When they wanted to
increase the size of the Tube station there before they were too
greedy - they wanted to take half of Camden with them.
"However, if they do plan to have more people changing there, they
will have to work out a way of making sure the station can cope."

unquote

Maybe an ELL extension beyond Finsbury Park could prove useful after
all?




It seems to be a common response when a lot of people want to visit an
attraction, to demolish the attraction in order to build better
facilities for the visitors ...

They have been trying (and already doing) similar things in Greenwich.

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Old August 24th 07, 09:55 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On Aug 24, 8:14 am, MIG wrote:
It seems to be a common response when a lot of people want to visit an
attraction, to demolish the attraction in order to build better
facilities for the visitors ...

They have been trying (and already doing) similar things in Greenwich.


To be fair, the only things TfL are seeking to destroy in Camden is
the chavvy Stables market right by the station selling pirated CDs and
'Adihash' t-shirts, and one of the capital's least appealing music
venues. All the worthwhile things - i.e. Camden High Street, Camden
Lock, the Lock market, the Barfly, Jazz Cafe, etc - would be left
intact.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

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Old August 24th 07, 10:04 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On Aug 24, 7:36 am, Bob wrote:
Conservative Greater London Authority member for Camden and Barnet
Brian Coleman said:
"It is a cover for reducing the service. The service was run
like this in the past and they changed it to increase trains. Why
would it work the other way round?"


Hmm...

1) running the Northern Line as two separate lines would reduce delays
and enhance capacity, as shown both by operational experience and flow
modelling; the only reason this is not already done is because of the
Camden bottleneck.

2) TfL is very, very obviously doing its best within its budget to
maximise capacity and increase throughput across London's transport
network, and I'd defy anyone to produce evidence to the contrary

3) unless he means Yerkes' amalgamation of the C&SLR and the CCE&HR in
1924, which may be a little long ago to be representative, there is no
occasion when "the service was run like this in the past and they
changed it to increase trains".

....and people are thinking of making one of this lot the Mayor?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

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Old August 24th 07, 10:28 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

John B wrote:

To be fair, the only things TfL are seeking to destroy in Camden is
the chavvy Stables market right by the station


The Stables Market is on Chalk Farm Road, exactly halfway between Camden
Town and Chalk Farm stations.





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Old August 24th 07, 11:52 AM posted to uk.transport.london
Kev Kev is offline
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On Aug 24, 11:28 am, "John Rowland"
wrote:
John B wrote:

To be fair, the only things TfL are seeking to destroy in Camden is
the chavvy Stables market right by the station


The Stables Market is on Chalk Farm Road, exactly halfway between Camden
Town and Chalk Farm stations.


I have posted before about what I have considered to be the chronic
waste that is the ELLx and how this is sucking up funds when many
other benificial schemes that would affect far more people go
unfunded. More people will probably pass through Camden in a day than
will use the ELLx in a whole year but which scheme gets the money.

Kevin

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Old August 24th 07, 12:22 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On Aug 24, 12:52 pm, Kev wrote:
I have posted before about what I have considered to be the chronic
waste that is the ELLx and how this is sucking up funds when many
other benificial schemes that would affect far more people go
unfunded. More people will probably pass through Camden in a day than
will use the ELLx in a whole year but which scheme gets the money.


I think it's more about which scheme got planning permission.

Weirdly most of the facts in the posted article are lifted directly
from last year's Transport 2025 planning white paper - there's very
little new here. It'd be interesting to know what this "draft
document" amounts to.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

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Old August 24th 07, 12:42 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:55:06 -0700, John B wrote:

To be fair, the only things TfL are seeking to destroy in Camden is
the chavvy Stables market right by the station selling pirated CDs and
'Adihash' t-shirts, and one of the capital's least appealing music
venues.


That might be fair enough if the development was in some way
necessary, but the fact was that the "seven-storey tower of shops and
flats" was entirely gratuitous. It's surprising that they thought
their application had any chance of success.

And while some degree of ground-floor-level development may be
necessary to cater for entry/exit flows, the impending avalance of
interchange traffic that will need to be dealt with if the line is
split won't even be going anywhere near the surface.
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Old August 24th 07, 12:47 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On 24 Aug, 11:28, "John Rowland"
wrote:
To be fair, the only things TfL are seeking to destroy in Camden is
the chavvy Stables market right by the station


The Stables Market is on Chalk Farm Road, exactly halfway between Camden
Town and Chalk Farm stations.


doh, I meant Buck Street.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org


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Old August 24th 07, 12:48 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Camden Town revisited - many times, many,many times

On 24 Aug, 13:42, asdf wrote:
To be fair, the only things TfL are seeking to destroy in Camden is
the chavvy Stables market right by the station selling pirated CDs and
'Adihash' t-shirts, and one of the capital's least appealing music
venues.


That might be fair enough if the development was in some way
necessary, but the fact was that the "seven-storey tower of shops and
flats" was entirely gratuitous. It's surprising that they thought
their application had any chance of success.

And while some degree of ground-floor-level development may be
necessary to cater for entry/exit flows, the impending avalance of
interchange traffic that will need to be dealt with if the line is
split won't even be going anywhere near the surface.


Wasn't the point that, if TfL were allowed to build a tower of shops
and flats, as well as making that particular part of Camden less
scabby and unpleasant, it would also pay for the redevelopment works?
(see also: Liverpool Street, Charing Cross, etc)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org



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