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1938 Stock Tube Tours
On 18 Sep, 12:30, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Tue, 18 Sep 2007, Alex Ingram wrote: John Rowland wrote: alex_t wrote: OK, I can say to myself that I'm not really a trainspotter. I mean, I can appreciate nice wooden interior of the train, but the real goal of my participation was to have a glimpse at the running tunnels* [snip] But still - it is scary to realize such things about myself! It's okay, you're just a trackbasher. Them trainspotters are the weird ones... Having watched at least one person follow their folder of specially printed LU track diagrams in preference to looking out of the window I may have to disagree! My instant reaction to that was, "ooh, i want those". I mean, when you're in an unlit tunnel, how much does looking out of the window tell you? A good map is like a pair of X-ray specs! Or is there yet another designation for such folk? I don't know a specific term, but they come under the map loony (diagrammatic) classification. Mapspotters? Map nerds? You know, despite being one, i don't know what it's called. A cartoholic? And if you're trying to rid yourself of your obsession perhaps you need to attend sessions of Cartoholics Planonymous? Would a good session down in the map room be referred to as getting grid-faced? Probably not. I have to say that, as someone who's a map lover too and has a pretty solid sense of direction, I actually find it pretty liberating to occasionally be thrown into a location with no map and no idea of where the various compass points are. Not really something that happens to me much in London town though. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 21 Sep, 01:43, Tom Anderson wrote: On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, MIG wrote: I forgot to mention that they would also have been running from Moorgate to Drayton Park in 1966, on what is now part of First Capital Connect. As seen on the strip map in this photo from the tour: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/...86b55a4e_o.jpg I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to Drayton Park [...] This seems rather silly - having the line only go to Drayton Park makes it almost completely useless! How long did that situation last? Crumbs - according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would only have been useful as a local service from Essex Road, Highbury & Islington and Drayton Park into the City, and for people coming on the Victoria line from Finsbury Park or Blackhorse Road (the other stations have direct connections to Liverpool Street anyway). Luxury! What was the frequency like? With that kind of demand, i would guess low enough that people would be better off taking either a bus or the Northern from King's Cross instead. I've no idea how well loaded the Northern City line was when it was evicted from Finsbury Park and just ran Drayton Park to Moorgate. However I do remember reading a fairly detailed account of the Moorgate crash in 1975 which happened in the morning rush-hour, and it certainly gave the impression that the line was well used. Bear in mind that the line would have found a number of new passengers who would have started to make use of it from Highbury & Islington southwards when the Victoria line opened from Walthamstow Central to High & I in 1968 - I'd suggest the number of pax reaching it via this interchange may well have been substational. You reckon? You think that people at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters would have taken the Vic and changed at High & I for Moorgate, rather than hopping on a direct train to Liverpool Street? And that people at Finsbury Park would have done the same rather than taking a direct train to Broad Street (which, AIUI, still ran at this point)? Blackhorse Road is the only Vic station where changing to the GN&CR is the best route, i think. You can also get onto the GN&CR from the NLL at Highbury & Islington, but again, i think that line ran to Broad Street at that time. Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in, say, 1965? The link from the NLL to the GN - the Canonbury Curve - has existed since 1875. See http://www.nlrhs.org.uk/history.html It carried a number of suburban trains from the GN down to Broad Street via the Canonbury Curve (between Finsbury Park and Canonbury) then down via the closed line (though shortly to be mostly reopened as part of the ELLX) from Dalston Junction to Broad Street. Right, i didn't realise there was a GN service to Broad Street like that. What i hadn't realised is that, as John Band pointed out, there *was* a link from the GN to the GN&CR at that time, it just wasn't the one we have now. Some diesel trains continued on this route until the 1976 GN electrification, from whence customers could of course use direct GN trains that were routed through the Northern City tunnels to Moorgate (a stone's throw from Broad Street). Like i said! Before the 1976 changes, there was nonetheless a single line link between the LU depot at Drayton Park (adjacent to the station) and the GN line at Finsbury Park, and this was used for LU rolling stock transfers. And the GN to Broad Street trains, right? Or am i confused again? tom -- If it ain't broke, open it up and see what makes it so bloody special. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On 21 Sep, 19:23, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote: On 21 Sep, 01:43, Tom Anderson wrote: On Thu, 20 Sep 2007, MIG wrote: I forgot to mention that they would also have been running from Moorgate to Drayton Park in 1966, on what is now part of First Capital Connect. As seen on the strip map in this photo from the tour: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/...86b55a4e_o.jpg I hadn't realised there was a time when that bit of line only ran to Drayton Park [...] This seems rather silly - having the line only go to Drayton Park makes it almost completely useless! How long did that situation last? Crumbs - according to CULG, from 1964 to 1976! It would only have been useful as a local service from Essex Road, Highbury & Islington and Drayton Park into the City, and for people coming on the Victoria line from Finsbury Park or Blackhorse Road (the other stations have direct connections to Liverpool Street anyway). Luxury! What was the frequency like? With that kind of demand, i would guess low enough that people would be better off taking either a bus or the Northern from King's Cross instead. I've no idea how well loaded the Northern City line was when it was evicted from Finsbury Park and just ran Drayton Park to Moorgate. However I do remember reading a fairly detailed account of the Moorgate crash in 1975 which happened in the morning rush-hour, and it certainly gave the impression that the line was well used. Bear in mind that the line would have found a number of new passengers who would have started to make use of it from Highbury & Islington southwards when the Victoria line opened from Walthamstow Central to High & I in 1968 - I'd suggest the number of pax reaching it via this interchange may well have been substational. You reckon? You think that people at Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters would have taken the Vic and changed at High & I for Moorgate, rather than hopping on a direct train to Liverpool Street? And that people at Finsbury Park would have done the same rather than taking a direct train to Broad Street (which, AIUI, still ran at this point)? Blackhorse Road is the only Vic station where changing to the GN&CR is the best route, i think. You're right, I'm an idiot! People coming from the north of the Vic line would've been best taking the BR train to Liverpool Street. This route would just have been a useful back-up if the alarm clock didn't work. I guess a few lazy people might have used it to get to Old Street without the walk. But that would be lazy. You can also get onto the GN&CR from the NLL at Highbury & Islington, but again, i think that line ran to Broad Street at that time. Yes, again you be correct - the North London Line ran from Richmond to Broad Street. (A less direct route bit I can't imagine the journey time was much different.) The line may have remained useful for those coming off longer-distance trains at Finsbury Park who used to use the GN&CR direct from there - the journey would have involved taking the Vic then a change at High & I (cross-platform interchange) then on to the GN&CR. Though one wonders if they might have just stayed on to KX and taken the Northern line into the City. So it would seem that, from 1964 at least, the GN&CR (aka the Northern City line) would mostly been a bit of interest to local passengers. Certainly some reports suggest it was a bit of a backwater even before it got cut back from Finsbury Park (after all, if it'd been a crucial link it wouldn't have been evicted from FP) - it only really came into its own from '76 onwards, fulfilling it's originally intended purpose. Did the link from the NLL to the GN not exist before the Moorgate line was plumbed in? What did the railways round that area look like in, say, 1965? The link from the NLL to the GN - the Canonbury Curve - has existed since 1875. See http://www.nlrhs.org.uk/history.html It carried a number of suburban trains from the GN down to Broad Street via the Canonbury Curve (between Finsbury Park and Canonbury) then down via the closed line (though shortly to be mostly reopened as part of the ELLX) from Dalston Junction to Broad Street. Right, i didn't realise there was a GN service to Broad Street like that. I really don't know much about it, though I get the impression it wasn't a significant service at all so wasn't a great option for pax from Finsbury Park to the City. Perhaps someone else knows a bit more about this? What i hadn't realised is that, as John Band pointed out, there *was* a link from the GN to the GN&CR at that time, it just wasn't the one we have now. Yes. What I've read suggests the setup would not have been remotely suitable for running a proper service up to the GN though. Some diesel trains continued on this route until the 1976 GN electrification, from whence customers could of course use direct GN trains that were routed through the Northern City tunnels to Moorgate (a stone's throw from Broad Street). Like i said! Before the 1976 changes, there was nonetheless a single line link between the LU depot at Drayton Park (adjacent to the station) and the GN line at Finsbury Park, and this was used for LU rolling stock transfers. And the GN to Broad Street trains, right? Or am i confused again? tom As I mention above, there were apparently GN to Broad St trains via the Canonbury Curve and the NLL calling at Finsbury Park but the impression I get is that the service wasn't substantial. I'm very willing to be corrected. And... I've just remembered something else that's crucial to all this talk, d'oh! Pre-'76 many of the GN suburban trains in fact went on from Kings Cross to Moorgate via the widened lines - the southbound trains went to the York Road platform at KX (accessed from the street at York Way rather than the main station) before descending into the York curve tunnel to gain access to the "widened lines" to Moorgate - i.e. what is now the Thameslink route. Northbound they traversed the now closed Hotel curve (in a tunnel) to come up at a suburban platform on the western side of KX. All these platforms have disappeared now and the tunnels are blocked off. Forgetting this crucial fact was pretty stupid of me, as that was a critical feature of the electrification scheme - Moorgate was still to be a GN destination but would merely be accessed by another route (the GN&CR rather than the widened lines). |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sep 22, 1:56 am, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article om, (Mizter T) wrote: One thing I've never been able to locate is exactly where are the blocked off tunnel portals north of Drayton Park are, i.e. the start of the disused tunnels that lead up to Finsbury Park. They should be pretty well on the platform ends at Drayton Park. It's a while since I've been that way in daylight, but they were clearly visibile as you approached Finsbury Park from Drayton Park when the "Great Northern Electrics" started running to Finsbury Park and beyond in the late 1970s. I don't know if more recent developments have obscured them. I used to go to Finsbury Park on Sundays by that route, but they only run Mondays to Fridays now. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message .com,
Mizter T writes I really don't know much about it, though I get the impression it wasn't a significant service at all so wasn't a great option for pax from Finsbury Park to the City. Perhaps someone else knows a bit more about this? Before the war, something like eight trains in the morning peak from High Barnet to Broad Street via Finsbury Park, and six from Enfield Chase (or Gordon Hill) to Broad Street via Finsbury Park. Both services were much more limited in the central part of the day. -- Paul Terry |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message . com, John
B writes I guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky) that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster, since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish people rather than its design capacity of 800ish... If my memory serves me correctly (questionable) the Northern City line as it was known only used 4 car sets. -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message om, Mizter
T writes BBC On This Day article: http://preview.tinyurl.com/354bb I seem to remember that the driver was carrying a wad of cash to get a car for his daughter later that day, hardly cause for a driver committing suicide, however he was found with his hand still on the deadmans and in the full power position. -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sep 22, 2:42 pm, "Clive." wrote:
In message . com, John B writesI guess it was lucky (in so much as these things can ever be lucky) that the line wasn't much use at the time of the Moorgate disaster, since that meant the train was carrying its seated capacity of 300ish people rather than its design capacity of 800ish... If my memory serves me correctly (questionable) the Northern City line as it was known only used 4 car sets. The report in the previous link implies that is was made of two three- car sets, ie six altogether. The story (and also some other accounts I've read) suggests that a number of people were standing, although that could be a case of "I'll have an uncomfortable journey to save a few yards at the terminus". |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message . com, MIG
writes The report in the previous link implies that is was made of two three- car sets, ie six altogether. The story (and also some other accounts I've read) suggests that a number of people were standing, although that could be a case of "I'll have an uncomfortable journey to save a few yards at the terminus". As I remember my time on the Northern Line, trains were composed of four and three car sets, each three car set being composed of only one driving car and a panel driven (30000unit?) Now as all the driving cars were either "A" or "D" end and as the units were uniform it would suggest that all the 30000 units were either "A" or "D", I suspect "A". At that time, only "A" and "D" units could couple under normal circumstances. This is why I suspect press reports about six car trains. As I've said I suspect the trains were only four cars long and this came from seeing them in 16 foot tunnels and eight car platforms, but if you can provide me with more accurate information, I'll happily apologise and back down. -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes 6 car in the peaks. I think they may have used 3-car 38TS off-peak but with compressor rules by then they may have run 6 cars all day. Standard stock ran as 2 car off-peak, 6 car peak. Yes, I well remember the two compressor minimum rule, or out of service at the nearest point. However, a two car train implies a "A" and a "D" coupled together, neither of which carried compressors, what happened in these circumstances? -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes The Northern main line had 7 car trains, with M-T-T-M four car units This is definitely wrong. Each four car set comprised a driving motor, a non-driving motor, a trailer double compressor and a driving motor car. Your setup implies only four motor cars per train, but there were definitely five. I don't know where your info comes from, but I worked on them and I know I'm right. -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sep 22, 8:58 pm, "Clive." wrote:
In message , Colin Rosenstiel writesThe Northern main line had 7 car trains, with M-T-T-M four car units This is definitely wrong. Each four car set comprised a driving motor, a non-driving motor, a trailer double compressor and a driving motor car. Your setup implies only four motor cars per train, but there were definitely five. I don't know where your info comes from, but I worked on them and I know I'm right. -- Clive. That is true; the four-car units definitely had NDMs. The Northern and Bakerloo had seven-car trains which were nearly all DM-T-NDM-DM + DM-T-DM, in fact all were by the early to mid 1970s, which I can remember properly. The UNDMs had all gone, and were relatively rare in the first place. I don't know when the last one ran. The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed. time passes I've just found another source suggesting that the Northern City line only had three-car units, and that six-car formations ran from the opening of the Victoria Line in 1968, which fits with the report. Presumably traffic increased with people changing and Highbury and Islington. Also that the last UNDMs were withdrawn in 1974, as were the last converted 1927 coaches that had been formed into 1938 stock. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sep 23, 2:02 pm, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article om, (MIG) wrote: The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed. Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the remains of the aborted 9 car train experiment. There were no 1949 stock cars with full driving cabs, though. They were the first cars to be withdrawn because they were non-standard. I've just found another source suggesting that the Northern City line only had three-car units, and that six-car formations ran from the opening of the Victoria Line in 1968, which fits with the report. Presumably traffic increased with people changing and Highbury and Islington. It will be because of the requirement that trains had to have at least two compressors that dictated 6 car trains all the time. The implication, not spelled out, was that three-car units were transferred in 1966, and ran in pairs from 1968. Maybe they had double compressors or maybe the implication is wrong. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes It will be because of the requirement that trains had to have at least two compressors that dictated 6 car trains all the time. Why? Each compressor car carried two compressors, therefore any unit could operate as it's own train. Remember the ordinary 4 car 62 stock sets on the Epping to Ongar route? -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes The trailers mainly had one compressor, though, didn't they? No, I think they all carried two compressors, but I'll happily be proved wrong. -- Clive. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sep 22, 5:40 pm, "Clive." wrote:
As I remember my time on the Northern Line, trains were composed of four and three car sets, each three car set being composed of only one driving car and a panel driven (30000unit?) Now as all the driving cars were either "A" or "D" end and as the units were uniform it would suggest that all the 30000 units were either "A" or "D", I suspect "A". At that time, only "A" and "D" units could couple under normal circumstances. This is why I suspect press reports about six car trains. As I've said I suspect the trains were only four cars long and this came from seeing them in 16 foot tunnels and eight car platforms, but if you can provide me with more accurate information, I'll happily apologise and back down. -- Clive. From 1970 the Northern City fleet was maintaind by Neasden and had a segregated fleet of 3 car 1938 stock units (they had to be segregated as they had Northern Line maps). These ran as six car trains on the branch. The cars involved in the Moorgate collision were DM 11175, Trailer 012263, DM 10175, DM 11115, T 012167 and DM 10115. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article om, (MIG) wrote: The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed. Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the remains of the aborted 9 car train experiment. 9 cars? What? Where? When? How? tom -- Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs, are *utterly meaningless*. -- Dehnadi and Bornat |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote:
On 21 Sep, 19:23, Tom Anderson wrote: On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Mizter T wrote: Bear in mind that the line would have found a number of new passengers who would have started to make use of it from Highbury & Islington southwards when the Victoria line opened You reckon? People coming from the north of the Vic line would've been best taking the BR train to Liverpool Street. [...] the North London Line ran from Richmond to Broad Street. (A less direct route bit I can't imagine the journey time was much different.) So it would seem that, from 1964 at least, the GN&CR (aka the Northern City line) would mostly been a bit of interest to local passengers. Certainly some reports suggest it was a bit of a backwater even before it got cut back from Finsbury Park (after all, if it'd been a crucial link it wouldn't have been evicted from FP) - it only really came into its own from '76 onwards, fulfilling it's originally intended purpose. That's what i would have thought. And yet ... What i hadn't realised is that, as John Band pointed out, there *was* a link from the GN to the GN&CR at that time, it just wasn't the one we have now. Yes. What I've read suggests the setup would not have been remotely suitable for running a proper service up to the GN though. Evidently. Enough to put something like 8 tph through in the peaks, though, from what Paul Terry says (depending on how long the morning peak is!). And... I've just remembered something else that's crucial to all this talk, d'oh! Pre-'76 many of the GN suburban trains in fact went on from Kings Cross to Moorgate via the widened lines Aha! Good point. All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses? Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route? tom -- Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs, are *utterly meaningless*. -- Dehnadi and Bornat |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
Tom Anderson wrote:
Evidently. Enough to put something like 8 tph through in the peaks, though, from what Paul Terry says (depending on how long the morning peak is!). Those are via the Canonbury Curve to Broad St, not the GN&CR, although I've no idea how good the Canonbury Curve's connection to the GN was at the time. All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses? Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route? With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route from the north end of the Victoria into the City, and changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the Piccadilly and KX-bound suburbans. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On 24 Sep, 13:22, Mr Thant
wrote: All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses? Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route? With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route from the north end of the Victoria into the City, and changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the Piccadilly and KX-bound suburbans. But the best route from the north end of the Victoria into the city would have been from Walthamstow, Seven Sisters or Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street. Thinking about it, I suspect you're right that the double-x-platform change from the Piccadilly would have accounted for most of the GN&C's traffic. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Mr Thant wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: Evidently. Enough to put something like 8 tph through in the peaks, though, from what Paul Terry says (depending on how long the morning peak is!). Those are via the Canonbury Curve to Broad St, not the GN&CR, although I've no idea how good the Canonbury Curve's connection to the GN was at the time. The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction. You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR movement. All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses? Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route? With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route from the north end of the Victoria into the City, Better than a direct train? Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters are all on branches of what we now call the West Anglia line, along which trains run directly to Liverpool Street. and changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the Piccadilly and KX-bound suburbans. I hadn't thought of the Piccadilly. Picc to Vic to GN&CR is two changes, but they're both cross-platform, and the Vic is frequent, so this would indeed be a good route. Even though there were direct trains to Broad Street from Finsbury Park high level, it might have been more convenient to take the indirect Vic - GN&CR route. Given that that route's a roughly straight line, whereas the Broad Street trains go via Dalston, it might even have been quicker For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines, so for anyone on those, no changes were necessary. For those not on those trains, going all the way to KX and taking the Northern or Metropolitan lines into the City would have been easier and maybe even quicker than the Vic - GN&CR route. If they were insistent on changing at FP, then even a Broad Street train would be a quicker and easier change, being at the same level (possibly even same-platform, depending on how the platforms were wired). Changing onto a City-bound tube line at KX would also have been an option for people coming in on the Picc. It's not as direct, but it's one less change. I imagine it would have been a competitive route. tom -- You may laugh. But me, I feel the chill wind of futurity down my spine... -- Mr Snips |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote: On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote: In article om, (MIG) wrote: The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed. Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the remains of the aborted 9 car train experiment. 9 cars? What? Where? When? How? Read any good book on Northern Line history. The 1938 stock book I quoted from last night described the experiment as "something that seemed like a good idea at the time" with the implication that the author thought they were stark staring bonkers to have tried it! It made more sense with Standard stock which wasted a lot of passenger space on control equipment compartments but the complications introduced made the idea unreasonable for 1938TS. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
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1938 Stock Tube Tours
"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction. You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR movement. When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the GNCR was not there. For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was /from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16. Platform 14 if you are being exact... Paul |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction. You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR movement. When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the GNCR was not there. So where did trains go north of the curve? For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was /from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16. Ah, my apologies. tom -- Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs - formal logical proofs that particular computations are possible, expressed in a formal system called a programming language - are utterly meaningless. To write a computer program you have to come to terms with this, to accept that whatever you might want the program to mean, the machine will blindly follow its meaningless rules and come to some meaningless conclusion. -- Dehnadi and Bornat |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
"Paul Scott" wrote in message ... "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction. You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR movement. When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the GNCR was not there. For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was /from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16. Platform 14 if you are being exact... Wikipedia says 16... but of course the platforms have subsequently been renumbered to eliminate the previous gaps (3 & 9 didn't exist when I first used Kings Cross.) |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
In article ,
(John Salmon) wrote: "Paul Scott" wrote in message ... "Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message ... In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction. You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR movement. When the Canonbury curve had a passenger service the connection to the GNCR was not there. For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines Actually for those /coming in/ they used York Curve. Hotel Curve was /from/ the Widened Lines to King's Cross platform 16. Platform 14 if you are being exact... Wikipedia says 16... but of course the platforms have subsequently been renumbered to eliminate the previous gaps (3 & 9 didn't exist when I first used Kings Cross.) Perzackerly. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Sep 24, 2:47 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Mr Thant wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: Evidently. Enough to put something like 8 tph through in the peaks, though, from what Paul Terry says (depending on how long the morning peak is!). Those are via the Canonbury Curve to Broad St, not the GN&CR, although I've no idea how good the Canonbury Curve's connection to the GN was at the time. The Canonbury Curve is between the GN&CR and the NLL. To get from Finsbury Park to Broad Street via it, you have to first get onto the GN&CR, then take the Curve to the NLL, and then turn south at Dalston Junction. You're only on the GN&CR for about two hundred metres, and you're never on the tube section, but you do still have to make the GN mainline - GN&CR movement. All of which does make it a bit surprising that there were 300 people on board at the time of the Moorgate disaster. I wonder where they'd come from. Were other lines out that day? Did lots of people come in off buses? Are we just completely wrong about this being a bad route? With the interchange at Highbury, it would have been be the best route from the north end of the Victoria into the City, Better than a direct train? Walthamstow Central, Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters are all on branches of what we now call the West Anglia line, along which trains run directly to Liverpool Street. and changing to the Victoria at Finsbury Park a decent route from the Piccadilly and KX-bound suburbans. I hadn't thought of the Piccadilly. Picc to Vic to GN&CR is two changes, but they're both cross-platform, and the Vic is frequent, so this would indeed be a good route. Even though there were direct trains to Broad Street from Finsbury Park high level, it might have been more convenient to take the indirect Vic - GN&CR route. Given that that route's a roughly straight line, whereas the Broad Street trains go via Dalston, it might even have been quicker For people coming in on mainline trains, though, i doubt it. Firstly, as MIG pointed out, at that point, some GN trains still took the Hotel Curve at KX and ran into the City along the Widened Lines, so for anyone on those, no changes were necessary. I don't think it was me, but I don't being associated with correct assertions (occasionally). One point that I think is important though is that Walthamstow Central wouldn't exactly have had a turn-up-and-go service, even in the peaks, so a frequent service with a cross-platform interchange (or two) might have been appealing, particularly for people working nearer to Moorgate or Old Street. Personally, my decision would have been influenced by likelihood of getting a seat, at least part of the way, and again starting at Walthamstow Central on the Victoria might have made that more likely. |
1938 Stock Tube Tours
On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Tom Anderson) wrote: On Sun, 23 Sep 2007, Colin Rosenstiel wrote: In article om, (MIG) wrote: The UNDMs were all from the extra build known as 1949 stock, rather than 1938 stock as such. I think that 1949 stock consisted of only UNDMs and trailers and allowed units to be reformed. Not so at all. Some of the UNDMs (22 out of 92) came from the remains of the aborted 9 car train experiment. 9 cars? What? Where? When? How? Read any good book on Northern Line history. If i ever lay my hands on one, i will. All i can glean from the web is that some of the later platforms were built to 9-car length, and there was a plan to run trains with 9 cars, with SDO (or whatever it was back then - a guard with a key, probably) keeping the rear two cars out of use in the 7-car older sections. I don't know which stations were built for 9 cars - i'm guessing the 1920s extensions, ie everything north of Golders Green and Highgate, and south of Clapham Common. I also don't know if the two rear cars would have been emptied before going into the 7-car section; i certainly hope so. The 1938 stock book I quoted from last night described the experiment as "something that seemed like a good idea at the time" with the implication that the author thought they were stark staring bonkers to have tried it! Ha! Sounds about right. Surely hardly any of the central network would have been 9-car, so where did they think the passengers in those rear two cars would be going? tom -- Formal logical proofs, and therefore programs - formal logical proofs that particular computations are possible, expressed in a formal system called a programming language - are utterly meaningless. To write a computer program you have to come to terms with this, to accept that whatever you might want the program to mean, the machine will blindly follow its meaningless rules and come to some meaningless conclusion. -- Dehnadi and Bornat |
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