There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional
services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once
....

i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a

The cynic in me wonders what would be in it for FCC to improve the service
in this way. They already blame overcrowding on a their customers holding
flexible tickets and the same argument could be made here - they would make
little extra income from the traffic. They'd probably also leave the
stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife.

Sad they can't seem to see the bigger picture, and whilst Ken might see
beyond this and pay for the services, I bet he'd end up paying forever...

Cheers,
Dave

On Oct 4, 2:00 pm, DaveP wrote:
They'd probably also leave the stations unstaffed and ticketless travel would be rife.

3 of the 5 stations are LUL run and don't have any obvious FCC staff,
and unlike King's Cross they do have barriers. The RUS puts the cost
of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at £170,000/year, mainly
for extra staff to keep the line open. It also suggests Saturday
running might be needed to free space at KX.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

The RUS puts the cost of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at
£170,000/year, mainly for extra staff to keep the line open.

Aha. Assuming passengers buy singles costing an average of 2.50 each
(Moorgate - Finsbury Park is 2.10, Moorgate - New Southgate is 3.10, so
this is ballpark right), that would need 68 000 passengers (ticket sales,
anyway) to break even. Over 52 weeks, that's 1308 people a week. That
sounds like quite a lot, but plausible.

tom

--
Tubes are the foul subterranean entrails of the London beast, stuffed
with the day's foetid offerings. -- Tokugawa

On Oct 4, 3:43 pm, Tom Anderson wrote:
Aha. Assuming passengers buy singles costing an average of 2.50 each
(Moorgate - Finsbury Park is 2.10, Moorgate - New Southgate is 3.10, so
this is ballpark right), that would need 68 000 passengers (ticket sales,
anyway) to break even. Over 52 weeks, that's 1308 people a week. That
sounds like quite a lot, but plausible.

The RUS actually has a full analysis:

Costs (Present Value)
Investment Cost 0.0
Operating Cost 1.7
Revenue -0.3
Other Government Impacts 0.0
Total costs 1.4
Benefi ts (Present Value)
Rail users benefi ts 0.5
Non users benefi ts 0.0
Total quantifi ed benefi ts 0.5
NPV -1.0
Quantifi ed BCR 0.3

Those are £millions over 10 years for the weeknight service only. So
they reckon it'll increase revenue by about £600/week, and values the
convenience gained at £1,000/week.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

The RUS puts the cost of running all weeknight trains to Moorgate at
£170,000/year, mainly for extra staff to keep the line open.

Aha. Assuming passengers buy singles costing an average of 2.50 each
(Moorgate - Finsbury Park is 2.10, Moorgate - New Southgate is 3.10, so
this is ballpark right), that would need 68 000 passengers (ticket sales,
anyway) to break even. Over 52 weeks, that's 1308 people a week. That
sounds like quite a lot, but plausible.


But not as straightforward surely? What you are looking for is 68000 extra
passengers making new journies, a slightly more difficult requirement. What
proportion of your potential users are already travelling by another route,
or have already travelled earlier? And because the route is joint ticketed
with LU as far as Finsbury Park, FCC won't get all the revenue anyway...

Paul

On 4 Oct, 14:00, DaveP wrote:

Sad they can't seem to see the bigger picture, and whilst Ken might see
beyond this and pay for the services, I bet he'd end up paying forever...

First are very pro-active on protecting revenue on the trains, which
is why they do set up regular late night on-train checks and gateline
checks at night (right up to the last train). I've seen many people
panic when they're suddenly presented with RPIs that usually go
straight to the first class compartments. It seems to work though, as
I've followed them through a late night train and there are actually
now relatively few people not carrying valid tickets. It goes to show
that if you can make people think there's a slightly higher than
average chance of being caught, they won't chance it.

FCC seemed keen to run later trains, and I'm sure that if they worked
with TfL as part of the 'bigger picture' on late night travel in and
around London, they could possibly get some subsidy but it wouldn't
have to cost that much. Most money would come from fares - and these
trains aren't exactly running half empty even on a Monday or Tuesday
night.

Jonathan

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, DaveP wrote:

There's a mechanism by which Ken can specify and pay for additional
services on NR routes in the London area. I wonder if, probably once
...

i think it would be very successful, and might convince FCC that such a

The cynic in me wonders what would be in it for FCC to improve the
service in this way. They already blame overcrowding on a their
customers holding flexible tickets and the same argument could be made
here - they would make little extra income from the traffic.

Bear in mind that most of the additional traffic, i think, will come from
people out and about in the City - Shoreditch - Islington area going home,
not commuters coming home later. I doubt many of the revellers have
seasons on that line. They might have travelcards, in which case FCC's
share of the travelcard pie would go up. Most of them are probably PAYG
users, in which case FCC would be selling them tickets. Either way, more
money for FCC.

They'd probably also leave the stations unstaffed and ticketless travel
would be rife.

Moorgate, Old Street, Essex Road and Highbury & Islington are underground,
so section 12 applies - they couldn't be run unstaffed. And as U points
out, three of those are currently run by LU anyway, with no FCC presence
needed. Drayton Park could be run unstaffed, but not many people are going
to be getting on there, as it's more of a destination than an origin, so
fare losses would be minimal.

tom

--
Tubes are the foul subterranean entrails of the London beast, stuffed
with the day's foetid offerings. -- Tokugawa