I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Sunday was COLD and very wet.

After waiting over 10 minutes at a bus stop close to home, the 302
driver (Metroline) tells me there is no ramp on the bus. As we are
freezing and I can do a few steps, I climb onto the bus.

On our return, we opt to take the 32 (Metroline again) north from
Kilburn as there was no Jubilee Line beyond Wembley Park.

I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors. At Cricklewood Bus Garage, we were instructed to alight and
join another bus, which was driven by the same driver. Again, there was
neither offer of a ramp or any mention of one. The same was true when we
alighted at Burnt Oak.

Do we have to demand a ramp?
My partner looks young and fit.

I've not had this problem when my I'm out with my septuagenarian mother.

I suspect the drivers are reluctant to deploy the ramps...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

On Nov 20, 9:52 pm, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:
Sunday was COLD and very wet.

After waiting over 10 minutes at a bus stop close to home, the 302
driver (Metroline) tells me there is no ramp on the bus.

I can only speak about a bus route near to me, the 152.
About 5 years ago this was called a wheelchair-friendly route; in fact
there were two buses out of about 10 that had 'the ramp'.
In general people were unlucky in catching those elusive wheelchair-
friendly buses, but they were there!
It was a bit snidey at the time, but I think nearly all the 152 buses
are WF now.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Offramp typed


On Nov 20, 9:52 pm, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:
Sunday was COLD and very wet.

After waiting over 10 minutes at a bus stop close to home, the 302
driver (Metroline) tells me there is no ramp on the bus.

I can only speak about a bus route near to me, the 152.
About 5 years ago this was called a wheelchair-friendly route; in fact
there were two buses out of about 10 that had 'the ramp'.
In general people were unlucky in catching those elusive wheelchair-
friendly buses, but they were there!
It was a bit snidey at the time, but I think nearly all the 152 buses
are WF now.

According to TfL's website, ALL buses are now supposed to be wheelchair
accessible, apart from the 'heritage' Routemasters...

....unless I misread the website.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

In article ,
(Helen Deborah Vecht) wrote:

Sunday was COLD and very wet.

After waiting over 10 minutes at a bus stop close to home, the 302
driver (Metroline) tells me there is no ramp on the bus. As we are
freezing and I can do a few steps, I climb onto the bus.

On our return, we opt to take the 32 (Metroline again) north from
Kilburn as there was no Jubilee Line beyond Wembley Park.

I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did
not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors. At Cricklewood Bus Garage, we were instructed to alight
and
join another bus, which was driven by the same driver. Again, there was
neither offer of a ramp or any mention of one. The same was true when
we
alighted at Burnt Oak.

Do we have to demand a ramp?
My partner looks young and fit.

I've not had this problem when my I'm out with my septuagenarian
mother.

I suspect the drivers are reluctant to deploy the ramps...

Complain to TfL? If they don't give you a satisfactory response, then try
the Disability Rights people.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

Taking a small tangent - I was told recently, that upon successfully
boarding a bus, a wheelchair user was confronted with a mother and pram
in the designated space. The mother indicated that she felt her needs
were greater before eventually but reluctantly giving way.

While it is true that 'mothers and prams' were not provided for in the
past, we seem to have come to the opposite extreme where the space
offered to them now (with the disabled priority proviso) is seen as an
inalienable right to be constantly exploited to the full. What passes
for a 'pram' or 'buggy' these days is nothing short of a mini,
all-terrain vehicle with a wide wheelbase and armour plating, capable of
carrying at least two children, their toys du jour, the week's shopping
and a couple of spare car batteries. More often than not, they are fully
loaded, batteries et al. ready for all eventualities like a change of
nappy or a thermonuclear war.

There is generally a sense of irresistible force meeting immovable
object when two prams compete for the same space on a bus. The resulting
diplomatic efforts, sometimes entertaining in themselves, usually block
the aisle, exit or both. Oh joy.

I can recall the days when a mother fully laden with shopping, two small
children and a pram, could, without a moment's hesitation, deftly lift
one child out of the pram and over the shoulder, fold the pram and board
the bus whilst holding the shopping and the toddler. Alas such skills
and dexterity have been lost to the world and the notion of actually
folding the modern 'pram' is now only a theoretical possibility if not
outright heresy.

ESB

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushers may not
 

Some pram-pushers are aggressively territorial :-(
We've had trouble getting through the bus, wheelchair folded, when the
aisle is blocked by a buggy-pusher. Quite often, it's difficult to
assert our needs without 'offending ethnicity'.

Few will/can fold their all-terrain buggies (though I can understand
those who don't wish to wake a sleeping babe) especially when encumbered
with loads of shopping.

My wheelchair folds flat quickly and I can transfer to an ordinary seat.
However, I weigh *much* more than a small child, so lifting into a bus
is very different to boarding with a buggy.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but prampushersmay not
 

Ernst S Blofeld wrote:

I can recall the days when a mother fully laden with shopping, two small
children and a pram, could, without a moment's hesitation, deftly lift
one child out of the pram and over the shoulder, fold the pram and board
the bus whilst holding the shopping and the toddler.

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

E.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushers may not
 

In message of Wed, 21 Nov 2007
09:06:47 in uk.transport.london, Helen Deborah Vecht
writes
Some pram-pushers are aggressively territorial :-(
We've had trouble getting through the bus, wheelchair folded, when the
aisle is blocked by a buggy-pusher. Quite often, it's difficult to
assert our needs without 'offending ethnicity'.

Few will/can fold their all-terrain buggies (though I can understand
those who don't wish to wake a sleeping babe) especially when encumbered
with loads of shopping.

My wheelchair folds flat quickly and I can transfer to an ordinary seat.
However, I weigh *much* more than a small child, so lifting into a bus
is very different to boarding with a buggy.


I am outraged by your treatment and trust you will complain.
Unfortunately, you will probably get no more than a facile apology.

The following from
www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Getting_around_London.pdf may help:
"All of London's 8,000 buses are now low-floor, wheelchair accessible
vehicles. The ramps on all buses must be in full working order at all
times. Any bus with a defective ramp is taken out of service, so you are
assured of full accessibility at all times." Please assert YOUR rights;
MY council tax pays for them.

The following from
www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-07-sept.pdf
seems relevant: "13.2.2. Wheelchair users have priority over everyone
else for use of the wheelchair space, since this
is the only place in which they can travel safely. If someone in a
wheelchair wishes to board, and the wheelchair space is occupied by
standing passengers or buggies, standing passengers will be asked by the
driver to make room if possible, and buggy users will be asked to fold
them and put them in the luggage space or keep them by their side."

PLEASE tool yourself to get your rights. I may need those rights and
your work will help. When I board an underground train and see someone
in severe need of a seat, I find the following, spoken loudly, works: "A
lady/gentleman needs a seat here!". Murphy's Law means the person often
refuses the seat because he/she is leaving at the next station. Murphy
also causes some people to offer me a seat on assessing my age and
fitness. ;)
--
Walter Briscoe

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

In message of Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00
in uk.transport.london, eastender writes
Ernst S Blofeld wrote:

I can recall the days when a mother fully laden with shopping, two small
children and a pram, could, without a moment's hesitation, deftly lift
one child out of the pram and over the shoulder, fold the pram and board
the bus whilst holding the shopping and the toddler.

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

E.

I suggest your technology may be inappropriate.

You may find the following helpful from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage-07-sept.pdf
"13.2.5. If you are using a double buggy you can board through the
centre doors of a dual-door bus but, before doing so, you must first get
permission from the bus driver. If you have not already done so, you
must immediately go to the front of the bus after boarding to show your
ticket or pass, touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader or to
pay your fare."

I never had your need when my children were young - 2 30 months apart -
but do not recall taking a buggy on public transport with one adult.
Buses only catered for able-bodied passengers 18 years ago. ;)
--
Walter Briscoe

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."

--
jhk

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but prampushersmay not
 

Walter Briscoe wrote:

"13.2.5. If you are using a double buggy you can board through the
centre doors of a dual-door bus but, before doing so, you must first get
permission from the bus driver. '

Some drivers are just bloody minded. When they do let you on they can also
drive off before you can get to the front and pay the fare.

E.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

In message of Wed, 21 Nov
2007 13:13:39 in uk.transport.london, Jarle H Knudsen
writes
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."


Interesting! "Conditions of Carriage" is more authoritative.
I suggest someone who cares may want to raise the matter at
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/contact/default.asp?type=tfl which is
usefully accessed from http://www.tfl.gov.uk/contact/default.aspx.
--
Walter Briscoe

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushers may not
 

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 11:35:04AM +0000, Walter Briscoe wrote:

"All of London's 8,000 buses are now low-floor, wheelchair accessible
vehicles. The ramps on all buses must be in full working order at all
times. Any bus with a defective ramp is taken out of service, so you are
assured of full accessibility at all times."

That's just crazy. So given the choice of inconveniencing a tiny number
of people (wheelchair users unable to use that bus if it remains in
service until the end of the day before being fixed overnight) versus
inconveniencing a huge number of people (that is, everyone unable to use
a bus that isn't in service) they've chosen to inconvenience everyone.
This helps neither those disabled people wanting to use the bus nor the
cause of accessibility - it just makes normal people ****ed off at how
accessibility inconveniences them.

--
David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist

THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE
PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS
STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Not familiar with your area.
I've seen a solo wheelchair user happily* travelling on the 111, so it
can be done!

(* Looking less miserable than the rest of us bus travellers, at
least)

On 20 Nov, 21:52, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
....
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors. At Cricklewood Bus Garage, we were instructed to alight and
join another bus, which was driven by the same driver. Again, there was
neither offer of a ramp or any mention of one. The same was true when we
alighted at Burnt Oak.

Do we have to demand a ramp?

I've no idea what the official guidance is, but I'm pretty sure I've
seen marked bell-pushes on the outside of some buses, suggesting
that you're expected to request the ramp. At the first stop, was it
obvious you wanted to board that particular bus ? (sounds harsh, but
if
it serves several routes and there was a rush of other passengers
then
he may simply not have realised. After that he's got a bit less of an
excuse!).

All the on-board wheelchair bays seem to have a special blue
bell-push with a wheelchair symbol; it would seem a good idea to
always use that as a matter of course, so that even friendly
drivers know to pull in to the stop such that they can deploy the
ramp.

My partner looks young and fit.

You lucky thing - maybe the driver just wanted a closer look :)

....
I suspect the drivers are reluctant to deploy the ramps...

Quite likely :( - it *seems* to take ages even when the ramp works,
and if it fails then it really can take several minutes by the time
the
driver's got out and applied his boot to it a couple of times. :(
It probably depends on the depot to some extent - if the local routes
have the ramps regularly used, the drivers are more likely to trust
them.

I agree that you should raise this with TfL but in practice I suspect
the best thing would be to always ask for the ramp, at the earliest
opportunity.

Hth

Henry

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

An elderly man at my local stop carries a screwdriver with him which
he offers to the driver each time to felicitate with folding over the
ramp. The drivers seem to be alot more friendly to him than the other
wheelchair users I see

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:13:39 +0100, Jarle H Knudsen
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender wrote:

Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.

"Getting around London" states:

"Buggies that are too wide to be wheeled into the bus
via the front door must be folded. Buggy users are not
allowed to board through the centre doors of
dual-door buses."

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:59:02 -0800 (PST), JL
wrote:

An elderly man at my local stop carries a screwdriver with him which
he offers to the driver each time to felicitate with folding over the
ramp. The drivers seem to be alot more friendly to him than the other
wheelchair users I see

Are you in London though? Ramps on London buses are nearly always at
the centre doors [1] and are powered. I can't think of one instance
where I've seen manual ramp deployment in London - it's often the norm
outside of London where single door buses predominate (even with double
decks).

[1] the stunningly obvious exception being smaller buses with single
doors at the front.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushers may not
 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:04:55 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

That behaviour is not acceptable. Provision of working ramps is, I
believe, a contractual condition for all London bus routes. I would
strongly suggest you complain to London Buses Customer Services centre.

Taking a small tangent - I was told recently, that upon successfully
boarding a bus, a wheelchair user was confronted with a mother and pram
in the designated space. The mother indicated that she felt her needs
were greater before eventually but reluctantly giving way.

I have not seen a direct "confrontation" of this nature but I have seen
and experienced the inalienable right of mothers and buggy to generally
crash and bash their way through, over and past people who happen to be
"in their way". Or, in other words, happen to be somewhere in the front
2/3s of the lower deck of a London bus.

There is generally a sense of irresistible force meeting immovable
object when two prams compete for the same space on a bus. The resulting
diplomatic efforts, sometimes entertaining in themselves, usually block
the aisle, exit or both. Oh joy.

While I have no issue with provision of wheelchair spaces on buses I
find the policy framework and enforcement with regard to buggies is just
plain wrong. Drivers are placed in a ridiculous situation of trying to
police a situation which has no clear rules and no associated publicity.
I am fed up with having to stand or being evicted from seats or from
being bashed in to by people with buggies. As buses get busier and
busier the situation is becoming more and more problematic and
expectations are out of step with the physical ability to provide
adequate space. There are also times when the amount of crowding and
congestion is, in my opinion, creating a serious safety hazard in the
event of a crash or fire.

I'll stop now because I can feel myself getting cross.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:01:43 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.

Which makes far more sense, as if (like most German buses) you design
around anything other than people boarding at the centre, you can fit
in more seats forward of the centre doors which are more practical for
those who can walk but not far. You can also reinstate the centre
handrail, which makes it far easier for such people to board, and
allows both alighting and boarding at the front, while avoiding the
long walk past wheelchair/buggy areas that is present on the
all-too-common[1] UK single-doored full-size bus.

The German Merc O405 and Citaro layout (similar to the layout used on
the RV1 non-bendy Citaros, except that those don't have the centre
pole at the front like most German ones do) is about as practical as
it gets.

[1] In the UK outside London, that is. Funnily enough, no other
country I can think of has copied that particular nonsense.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:04:55 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

That behaviour is not acceptable. Provision of working ramps is, I
believe, a contractual condition for all London bus routes. I would
strongly suggest you complain to London Buses Customer Services centre.

Taking a small tangent - I was told recently, that upon successfully
boarding a bus, a wheelchair user was confronted with a mother and pram
in the designated space. The mother indicated that she felt her needs
were greater before eventually but reluctantly giving way.

I have not seen a direct "confrontation" of this nature but I have seen
and experienced the inalienable right of mothers and buggy to generally
crash and bash their way through, over and past people who happen to be
"in their way". Or, in other words, happen to be somewhere in the front
2/3s of the lower deck of a London bus.

There is generally a sense of irresistible force meeting immovable
object when two prams compete for the same space on a bus. The resulting
diplomatic efforts, sometimes entertaining in themselves, usually block
the aisle, exit or both. Oh joy.

While I have no issue with provision of wheelchair spaces on buses I
find the policy framework and enforcement with regard to buggies is just
plain wrong. Drivers are placed in a ridiculous situation of trying to
police a situation which has no clear rules and no associated publicity.
I am fed up with having to stand or being evicted from seats or from
being bashed in to by people with buggies. As buses get busier and
busier the situation is becoming more and more problematic and
expectations are out of step with the physical ability to provide
adequate space. There are also times when the amount of crowding and
congestion is, in my opinion, creating a serious safety hazard in the
event of a crash or fire.


A few months ago I got market researched by telephone on behalf of TfL,
asking how I would rank priorities for who should use the wheelchair
spaces (are they actually called that, or is it multi-purpose space or
something?).

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Henry typed


Not familiar with your area.
I've seen a solo wheelchair user happily* travelling on the 111, so it
can be done!

(* Looking less miserable than the rest of us bus travellers, at
least)

Solo wheelchairs have much bigger wheels than mine..

On 20 Nov, 21:52, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
....
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.
Do we have to demand a ramp?

I've no idea what the official guidance is, but I'm pretty sure I've
seen marked bell-pushes on the outside of some buses, suggesting
that you're expected to request the ramp. At the first stop, was it
obvious you wanted to board that particular bus ? (sounds harsh, but
if
it serves several routes and there was a rush of other passengers
then
he may simply not have realised. After that he's got a bit less of an
excuse!).

In the dark and p***ing rain, sitting in a chair facing traffic at 8pm
on a Sunday night, there are few buses and it's normal to want to stay
within sight of the driver. He could see I was in the chair.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Paul Corfield wrote:
Ramps on London buses are nearly always at the centre doors [1] and are
powered.

About a month ago, I was waiting for a 521 at London Bridge station along with
a few others, including a young chap in a wheelchair. When the bus arrived,
the driver did his best to get the ramp out to the kerb, but it kept
slipping off because the bendy bus was too unwieldy for him to be able to
get it close enough to the slightly curved kerb.

In the end, a couple of other passengers helped the chap out by carrying him
(in his chair) onto the bus. (The driver was just getting out of his cab as
this happened, presumably to offer similar assistance; it just happened that
others got there first.)

So even when the driver _is_ willing to put quite some effort into extending
the ramp, it seems it's not always possible.

Kake

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes
In the dark and p***ing rain, sitting in a chair facing traffic at 8pm
on a Sunday night, there are few buses and it's normal to want to stay
within sight of the driver. He could see I was in the chair.

Many people wait by the bus stop and don't necessarily want that
particular bus. Sometimes one does need to ask (even) for the obvious.
What's obvious to one isn't always obvious to another.


--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmaynot
 

Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:01:43 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote:

That rule has been superceded by the one permitting entry via the centre
doors. With certain vehicles - e.g. the Dennis Darts used on route 212 -
the very narrow aisle means the majority of buggies end up using the
centre doors rather than the front.

Which makes far more sense, as if (like most German buses) you design
around anything other than people boarding at the centre, you can fit
in more seats forward of the centre doors which are more practical for
those who can walk but not far. You can also reinstate the centre
handrail, which makes it far easier for such people to board, and
allows both alighting and boarding at the front, while avoiding the
long walk past wheelchair/buggy areas that is present on the
all-too-common[1] UK single-doored full-size bus.

The German Merc O405 and Citaro layout (similar to the layout used on
the RV1 non-bendy Citaros, except that those don't have the centre
pole at the front like most German ones do) is about as practical as
it gets.

[1] In the UK outside London, that is. Funnily enough, no other
country I can think of has copied that particular nonsense.

Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada. When I
first visited continental Europe (I grew up variously in Canada and the
UK), I found the idea of boarding a bus other than at the front an odd
concept at first. I can see the logic of it, though, it just felt odd.

Robin

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0000, eastender
wrote:

Ernst S Blofeld wrote:

I can recall the days when a mother fully laden with shopping, two small
children and a pram, could, without a moment's hesitation, deftly lift
one child out of the pram and over the shoulder, fold the pram and board
the bus whilst holding the shopping and the toddler.

I wonder *how* small the children were. Lifting a baby onto her
shoulder would be a very different matter from hauling a lively 2.5
year-old out of a push-chair. Also, before low-floor buses were the
norm, somebody with a push-chair would know they'd have to fold it and
would do so at the stop before the bus arrived. That's a different
matter from folding a push-chair in a hurry because a bus arrives with
no space to wheel a push-chair. (This is *not* to condone refusal by
anybody with a push-chair to fold it when a wheelchair user needs the
space. The rules are very clear about this, that wheelchairs take
priority)


Oh yeah? We have two year old twins - there is no way you can get them
out a
double buggy and fold it up. Also, the side by side double buggy we have
won't fit at the front of the bus, and some drivers won't let you board at
the rear doors.



My impression is that before low-floor buses were the norm somebody in
your position simply wouldn't have used buses at all - at least not
with only one adult in charge

Martin

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram-pushersmay not
 

Martin Rich wrote:
Also, before low-floor buses were the norm, somebody with a
push-chair would know they'd have to fold it and would do so at the
stop before the bus arrived. That's a different matter from folding a
push-chair in a hurry because a bus arrives with no space to wheel a
push-chair.

You have demonstrated my point. In having been furnished with lower
floors and wider aisles (even if only as a side-effect of disabled
provision), the child minder no longer contemplates folding in advance
even when they have the time and space to do so. Previously it was a
necessity but now it is largely an optional act of consideration for
others that is rarely exercised.

While much is to do with the self-centred 'society' we live in, and
misplaced parental instincts, the trend towards purchasing large,
all-terrain 'toddler tractors' doesn't help.

ESB

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushers may not
 

"Ernst S Blofeld" wrote in message
...
While it is true that 'mothers and prams' were not provided for in the
past, we seem to have come to the opposite extreme where the space offered
to them now (with the disabled priority proviso) is seen as an inalienable
right to be constantly exploited to the full. What passes for a 'pram' or
'buggy' these days is nothing short of a mini, all-terrain vehicle with a
wide wheelbase and armour plating, capable of carrying at least two
children, their toys du jour, the week's shopping and a couple of spare
car batteries. More often than not, they are fully loaded, batteries et
al. ready for all eventualities like a change of nappy or a thermonuclear
war.

I believe that the correct term for such vehicles is "Pavement Panzer"...
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushers may not
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007 04:04:55 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
I sat in the chair waiting for the bus. When it came, the driver did not
offer use of the ramp and my partner struggled to push me through the
front doors.

That behaviour is not acceptable. Provision of working ramps is, I
believe, a contractual condition for all London bus routes. I would
strongly suggest you complain to London Buses Customer Services centre.

Interestingly, my brother recently spent 8 months as a bus driver, working
for Arriva out of Enfield garage. We were speaking about this the other day
(following me seeing a wheelchair user not be able to get on two consecutive
123s at TPL due to dud ramps) and he said that although what you say is
perfectly correct, he was routinely "encouraged" by his manager to take a
bus with a defective ramp into service.
--
Cheers, Steve.
Change jealous to sad to reply.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:33 +0000, "R.C. Payne"
wrote:
Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada. When I
first visited continental Europe (I grew up variously in Canada and the
UK), I found the idea of boarding a bus other than at the front an odd
concept at first. I can see the logic of it, though, it just felt odd.

I wonder whether the Anglo-Saxon (as they say in France) way of doing
it isn't in fact *more* common throughout Europe.

It's certainly the case on buses everywhere I've been in Spain,
Portugal, Belgium and is becoming the norm again in France, thanks to
anti-social types.

Some places (Paris) make an exception and allow boarding anywhere on
bendies, some (Barcelona) make you get on at the front.

Some places tolerate you getting off at the front but try to put you
off the idea, some won't let you at all.

Some Teutonic places allow boarding anywhere except after some time in
the evening (2000, 2100) after which you have to get on at the front.
Although there are a lot of options, I'd pick this one as the most
sensible for London's artics, at least outside the central area. Maybe
with a few hundred thousand new revenue inspectors it could be
extended to other buses as well...

As I've drifted off-topic a bit, I'd support Neil's idea that
wheelchairs and prams (detest the "B" word!) get on in the middle for
easy access to the open space, and with a proper middle pole at the
front doors and seats right at the front for people with other
mobility difficulties.

Richard.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 11:29:33 +0000, "R.C. Payne"
wrote:

Restricting boarding to the front doors only is the standard mode of
operation in all places I have visited in the US and Canada.

I didn't mean that, I meant the practice throughout the UK (other than
London) of having only one door, it being used for both boarding and
alighting. It is a stupid practice that I don't think I've seen
anywhere outside the UK. Even German minibuses have two sets of
doors.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but prampushersmay not
 

Here in Birmingham (where all buses have manually operated ramps),
passengers tend to be very centralised in their destinations. Between
my house and the centre (about 30 stops), only about 2 of those are
major points for getting off. In the city centre, everyone gets on and
off at one stop*. Therefore, the bus is pretty much like a bucket
filling up with water, and emptying at the last minute. If two doors
are provided, the chances are loading/unloading times will not be
increased.

In London on the other hand, I can picture buses being a bucket of
water with a hole in the bottom. Passengers will get on everywhere,
and off everywhere (tube stations, railway stations, bus interchanges,
etc). Therefore it helps to have the extra door to improve efficiency.
London is very decentralised, Birmingham is not, therefore those extra
6 seats that we can fit in on our Birmingham buses are more cost
effective than an extra door.

(*Timing point so buses tend to wait for a while anyway.)

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

Steve Dulieu wrote:
I believe that the correct term for such vehicles is "Pavement Panzer"...

Excellent! Duly noted, thanks.

ESB

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram-pushers may not
 

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:00:46 +0000, Ernst S Blofeld
wrote:

You have demonstrated my point. In having been furnished with lower
floors and wider aisles (even if only as a side-effect of disabled
provision), the child minder no longer contemplates folding in advance
even when they have the time and space to do so. Previously it was a
necessity but now it is largely an optional act of consideration for
others that is rarely exercised.

Up to a point I agree with you , but I don't buy the idea that this is
symptomatic of some broader decline. In most circumstances now, it's
a perfectly rational decision for people with push-chairs not to fold
them when they get onto buses. An unintended consequence of this is
that people sometimes need to fold push-chairs in a hurry.

Martin

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Paul G typed


In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes
In the dark and p***ing rain, sitting in a chair facing traffic at 8pm
on a Sunday night, there are few buses and it's normal to want to stay
within sight of the driver. He could see I was in the chair.

Many people wait by the bus stop and don't necessarily want that
particular bus. Sometimes one does need to ask (even) for the obvious.
What's obvious to one isn't always obvious to another.


Two of us, (one in a wheelchair, one out) waving arms (with reflective
piping on all sleeves) at the only bus approaching a bus stop isn't
obvious to the driver? How else should we attract attention?

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

"Richard" wrote in message
...

I wonder whether the Anglo-Saxon (as they say in France) way of doing
it isn't in fact *more* common throughout Europe.

It's certainly the case on buses everywhere I've been in Spain,
Portugal, Belgium and is becoming the norm again in France, thanks to
anti-social types.

Some places (Paris) make an exception and allow boarding anywhere on
bendies, some (Barcelona) make you get on at the front.

Some places tolerate you getting off at the front but try to put you
off the idea, some won't let you at all.

Some Teutonic places allow boarding anywhere except after some time in
the evening (2000, 2100) after which you have to get on at the front.
Although there are a lot of options, I'd pick this one as the most
sensible for London's artics, at least outside the central area. Maybe
with a few hundred thousand new revenue inspectors it could be
extended to other buses as well...


You have to board some Amsterdam trams at the middle or rear doors, as I
recall.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible... but pram pushersmay not
 

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:21:36 GMT, wrote:

You have to board some Amsterdam trams at the middle or rear doors, as I
recall.

Front and middle. It was due to large-scale fare evasion. What they
did, rather curiously, was to build a conductor's office by the middle
doors.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes
Paul G typed


In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes
In the dark and p***ing rain, sitting in a chair facing traffic at 8pm
on a Sunday night, there are few buses and it's normal to want to stay
within sight of the driver. He could see I was in the chair.

Many people wait by the bus stop and don't necessarily want that
particular bus. Sometimes one does need to ask (even) for the obvious.
What's obvious to one isn't always obvious to another.


Two of us, (one in a wheelchair, one out) waving arms (with reflective
piping on all sleeves) at the only bus approaching a bus stop isn't
obvious to the driver? How else should we attract attention?

Ah! You didn't mention that in the original post. I would definitely
agree that that is sufficient form of attention seeking (although I can
think of more distracting things to do, I wouldn't necessarily think
them appropriate on a British street...).


--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

Paul G typed

Ah! You didn't mention that in the original post. I would definitely
agree that that is sufficient form of attention seeking (although I can
think of more distracting things to do, I wouldn't necessarily think
them appropriate on a British street...).

It was *far* too clod and wet for me to strip naked...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

I Thought the Buses were Wheelchair Accessible...
 

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

Paul G typed

Ah! You didn't mention that in the original post. I would definitely
agree that that is sufficient form of attention seeking (although I can
think of more distracting things to do, I wouldn't necessarily think
them appropriate on a British street...).

It was *far* too clod and wet for me to strip naked...

Also, unless you've got retroreflective nipples, this might not even have
been more distracting.

tom

--
20 Minutes into the Future