London Overground line names
 

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:

(Moving slightly off-topic...) Indeed the "South London Line" the
official designation of the actual running lines (i.e. the tracks)
until (I think) the late 80's when they were partially renamed the
"Atlantic Lines", when a junction went in between Peckham Rye and
Denmark Hill (Crofton Rd Jn) which allowed trains to switch over from
the Chatham lines.

Is the Chatham line even the best way to get to Chatham? Is
some route via Dartford not faster?

The London Chatham & Dover Railway never went anywhere very fast, but
AFAIK it never went to Dartford.

No, but the South Eastern Railway did, via the North Kent line through
Dartford.

Although looking at some timetable type info, it looks like this line is
currently used for stopping services, so the answer to my question is
"no".

tom

--
I came here to chew gum and kick ass

London Overground line names
 

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the designation "outer South London Line"
(Victoria - Streatham Hill - Crystal Palace - LB) appears to have been
the creation of some Wikipedia contributors. I've never heard or read
the railways referring to that service by that name.

Ah, interesting.

The South London Line in my mind has always been the Victoria - LB via
Peckham Rye service.

And with a snappy name like that, why would it be anything else?

Maybe it could do with some rebranding, though.

OK, so we need a name for the South London Line, so (as they say) work
with me on this one. I will take partial inspiration from the Atlantic
lines name, and also be inspired by Kennington's somewhat kooky
Polynesian themed 'tiki bar' South London Pacific (http://
www.southlondonpacific.com/) because... just because.

So the line can have the name the South London Atlantic Line, and can
thus sport a South Atlantic theme. I'm thinking... er.. the Falklands,
so mosaics of Romping soldiers... one of the trains could be called
Goose Green, as there is a Goose Green in East Dulwich not far from
Peckham Rye station... er, it shouldn't all be about the war, so the
livery could be grazing Falklands sheep... or perhaps it should just
have a maritime theme, lots of naval ensigns and flag signals... the
trains could be decked out with ropes, and a rum bar, and pirates, and
the drivers would wear the captains uniform with the four gold rings,
and there could be hidden treasure...

The possibilities, as I'm sure you'll agree, are endless!

....

No comment.

Or, as an alternative, how about the "Frontline", which was the old
nickname of the nearby Railton Road. Said nickname is often attributed
to the times of the '81 riots, but it actually originates back in the
70's as part of the road at least was a slightly edgy place. No-one
calls it that now, though there is an off-licence that still goes by
that name!

That name's also been used for Amhurst Road in Hackney, for much the same
reasons. This would make that a good name for the extended ELL, if it ever
gets round to linking these two delightful neighbourhoods.

Perhaps if I send this post to a branding consultancy they'll give me a
job?

Sadly, i suspect the only branding that'd be likely to happen is a rude
word on your forehead.

tom

--
I came here to chew gum and kick ass

London Overground line names
 

Surely a lot of London's NR lines pretty much name themselves (the
Shenfield line, the Watford line, the Lea Valley line etc). It's only
those awkward chaps in south London where it gets complicated.

Shame really - I suspect if the lines had well recognized names people
would be a lot less afraid of south London than they are now. 'cept
for the gun crime, of course.

Jonn

London Overground line names
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

Or, as an alternative, how about the "Frontline", which was the old
nickname of the nearby Railton Road. Said nickname is often attributed
to the times of the '81 riots, but it actually originates back in the
70's as part of the road at least was a slightly edgy place. No-one
calls it that now, though there is an off-licence that still goes by
that name!

That name's also been used for Amhurst Road in Hackney, for much the same
reasons. This would make that a good name for the extended ELL, if it ever
gets round to linking these two delightful neighbourhoods.

Your anti-orbital rail prejudices bubbling up again Tom?! As well as
having a downer on Brixton and Hackney, it would seem...

Anyway I'm not going to get drawn into that one, but instead I will
point out that there hasn't been a stop on the SLL in Brixton since
the somewhat flimsy East Brixton station closed in 1976:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...on/index.shtml

There are occasional calls for a more central station to be built, but
it would be located on a high viaduct, above the existing Brixton
station which is itself on a viaduct, so it'd be mighty expensive - so
expensive that neither TfL nor Network Rail's draft South London RUS
consider it feasible. Brixton would be a useful place to have a
station especially when the frequent ELL service comes to the SLL, so
much so that I think rebuilding East Brixton station might not be such
a bad aspiration to have (not for the interchange possibilities but
simply for access).


Perhaps if I send this post to a branding consultancy they'll give me a
job?

Sadly, i suspect the only branding that'd be likely to happen is a rude
word on your forehead.

tom

So you've tried this approach in the past too?

London Overground line names
 

On Nov 27, 11:11 am, Mizter T wrote:

There are occasional calls for a more central station to be built, but
it would be located on a high viaduct, above the existing Brixton
station which is itself on a viaduct, so it'd be mighty expensive - so
expensive that neither TfL nor Network Rail's draft South London RUS
consider it feasible. Brixton would be a useful place to have a
station especially when the frequent ELL service comes to the SLL, so
much so that I think rebuilding East Brixton station might not be such
a bad aspiration to have (not for the interchange possibilities but
simply for access).



That's not a bad idea. It'd bring the SLL to Brixton, and provide on-
street interchange with both Brixton and Loughborough Junction. And
presumably it wouldn't cost the earth. Has this been considered at
all?

Jonn

London Overground line names
 

On 27 Nov, 11:21, wrote:
On Nov 27, 11:11 am, Mizter T wrote:



There are occasional calls for a more central station to be built, but
it would be located on a high viaduct, above the existing Brixton
station which is itself on a viaduct, so it'd be mighty expensive - so
expensive that neither TfL nor Network Rail's draft South London RUS
consider it feasible. Brixton would be a useful place to have a
station especially when the frequent ELL service comes to the SLL, so
much so that I think rebuilding East Brixton station might not be such
a bad aspiration to have (not for the interchange possibilities but
simply for access).

That's not a bad idea. It'd bring the SLL to Brixton, and provide on-
street interchange with both Brixton and Loughborough Junction. And
presumably it wouldn't cost the earth. Has this been considered at
all?

Jonn


I've never even heard of it being floated as an idea. As far as I can
see there aren't any new buildings there that would inhibit a new
station on that site. I don't think the interchange potential should
be overstated however - it's the kind of thing I'd happily make use
of, but I don't think my attitude would be shared by that many fellow
passengers!

London Overground line names
 

On Nov 27, 12:01 pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 27 Nov, 11:21, wrote:



On Nov 27, 11:11 am, Mizter T wrote:

There are occasional calls for a more central station to be built, but
it would be located on a high viaduct, above the existing Brixton
station which is itself on a viaduct, so it'd be mighty expensive - so
expensive that neither TfL nor Network Rail's draft South London RUS
consider it feasible. Brixton would be a useful place to have a
station especially when the frequent ELL service comes to the SLL, so
much so that I think rebuilding East Brixton station might not be such
a bad aspiration to have (not for the interchange possibilities but
simply for access).

That's not a bad idea. It'd bring the SLL to Brixton, and provide on-
street interchange with both Brixton and Loughborough Junction. And
presumably it wouldn't cost the earth. Has this been considered at
all?

Jonn

I've never even heard of it being floated as an idea. As far as I can
see there aren't any new buildings there that would inhibit a new
station on that site. I don't think the interchange potential should
be overstated however - it's the kind of thing I'd happily make use
of, but I don't think my attitude would be shared by that many fellow
passengers!


Well, not, but a lot of the stations on the orbital lines are
unfortunately like that. I think the map needs a way of showing that
interchange is possible but not for the faint hearted - see also
Walthamstow, Hackney, Camden etc.

Jonn

London Overground line names
 

On 27 Nov, 12:06, wrote:
On Nov 27, 12:01 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 27 Nov, 11:21, wrote:

On Nov 27, 11:11 am, Mizter T wrote:

There are occasional calls for a more central station to be built, but
it would be located on a high viaduct, above the existing Brixton
station which is itself on a viaduct, so it'd be mighty expensive - so
expensive that neither TfL nor Network Rail's draft South London RUS
consider it feasible. Brixton would be a useful place to have a
station especially when the frequent ELL service comes to the SLL, so
much so that I think rebuilding East Brixton station might not be such
a bad aspiration to have (not for the interchange possibilities but
simply for access).

That's not a bad idea. It'd bring the SLL to Brixton, and provide on-
street interchange with both Brixton and Loughborough Junction. And
presumably it wouldn't cost the earth. Has this been considered at
all?

Jonn

I've never even heard of it being floated as an idea. As far as I can
see there aren't any new buildings there that would inhibit a new
station on that site. I don't think the interchange potential should
be overstated however - it's the kind of thing I'd happily make use
of, but I don't think my attitude would be shared by that many fellow
passengers!

Well, not, but a lot of the stations on the orbital lines are
unfortunately like that. I think the map needs a way of showing that
interchange is possible but not for the faint hearted - see also
Walthamstow, Hackney, Camden etc.

Jonn


"Not for the faint hearted" makes it sound a bit like attempting to
interchange at these places would be a herculean task, which is
perhaps somewhat OTT for what is just a walk down a street! Indeed,
perhaps lots of people would be a little less faint-hearted if they
did have such a stroll a bit more often!

But yes, I agree with what your broad notion - there are loads of "non-
interchange interchanges" as it were. I guess it's difficult
representing such information on a rail map (or more properly a
diagram) without it getting messy, but then again the real world is
messy. It might well plant some ideas in the minds of people
unfamiliar with certain areas and help them to discover better routes
around town.

However in the case East Brixton many of the potential interchanges
could be done far more conveniently elsewhere, AFAICS there are really
only a limited number of journeys where an interchange at East Brixton
to Brixton or Loughborough Jn would really be worthwhile (and these
might just as well be completed by some bus/train combo). The selling
point of a new East Brixton station couldn't really be that it'd be
some amazingly useful interchange, but I think it could be useful for
access to and from the area.

London Overground line names
 

On 27 Nov, 13:57, Mizter T wrote:
On 27 Nov, 12:06, wrote:





On Nov 27, 12:01 pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 27 Nov, 11:21, wrote:

On Nov 27, 11:11 am, Mizter T wrote:

There are occasional calls for a more central station to be built, but
it would be located on a high viaduct, above the existing Brixton
station which is itself on a viaduct, so it'd be mighty expensive - so
expensive that neither TfL nor Network Rail's draft South London RUS
consider it feasible. Brixton would be a useful place to have a
station especially when the frequent ELL service comes to the SLL, so
much so that I think rebuilding East Brixton station might not be such
a bad aspiration to have (not for the interchange possibilities but
simply for access).

That's not a bad idea. It'd bring the SLL to Brixton, and provide on-
street interchange with both Brixton and Loughborough Junction. And
presumably it wouldn't cost the earth. Has this been considered at
all?

Jonn

I've never even heard of it being floated as an idea. As far as I can
see there aren't any new buildings there that would inhibit a new
station on that site. I don't think the interchange potential should
be overstated however - it's the kind of thing I'd happily make use
of, but I don't think my attitude would be shared by that many fellow
passengers!

Well, not, but a lot of the stations on the orbital lines are
unfortunately like that. I think the map needs a way of showing that
interchange is possible but not for the faint hearted - see also
Walthamstow, Hackney, Camden etc.

Jonn

"Not for the faint hearted" makes it sound a bit like attempting to
interchange at these places would be a herculean task, which is
perhaps somewhat OTT for what is just a walk down a street! Indeed,
perhaps lots of people would be a little less faint-hearted if they
did have such a stroll a bit more often!

But yes, I agree with what your broad notion - there are loads of "non-
interchange interchanges" as it were. I guess it's difficult
representing such information on a rail map (or more properly a
diagram) without it getting messy, but then again the real world is
messy. It might well plant some ideas in the minds of people
unfamiliar with certain areas and help them to discover better routes
around town.

However in the case East Brixton many of the potential interchanges
could be done far more conveniently elsewhere, AFAICS there are really
only a limited number of journeys where an interchange at East Brixton
to Brixton or Loughborough Jn would really be worthwhile (and these
might just as well be completed by some bus/train combo). The selling
point of a new East Brixton station couldn't really be that it'd be
some amazingly useful interchange, but I think it could be useful for
access to and from the area

It would be handy for people in Lewisham and Peckham to be able to go
to Brixton by train (and get off), as you say, not to interchange.

I don't really understand all the need for line names at the same time
that a lot of people (wrongly) argue against route codes. All the
lines are there, but routes actually run in different timetables vary
a lot. The maps never catch up (even if they are correct in the first
place), but the route codes are mostly available to be used.

There are currently two regular routes from London Bridge to Victoria,
but in the recent past the "outer" route was to go via Peckham,
Streatham, Wimbledon, Sutton, Selhurst, Balham etc, ie a partial
figure of eight.

I've also seen trains doing a simple Forest Hill, West Croydon,
Sutton, Wimbledon, Balham route, but I can't remember if it was
regular or an engineering diversion. The maps always show it to be
impossible.

London Overground line names
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

I anticipate achieving the former completely, and making a good fist of
the latter - if it's as good as the way the existing London Connections
map deals with the District and Metropolitan lines (said map suggests you
can get trains from Amersham to Northwood and Richmond to Edgware Road),
i'll be happy.

Doesn't the current map show Wimbleware trains running through Earl's Court
separately and connecting to the Wimbledon branch to the south? The tube map
certainly doesn't show Richmond to Edgeware Road as a possible direct
service.