On 22 Dec, 19:50, wrote:
It is a legal requirement that new works and any sort of upgrade must
be DDA compliant (hence, for example, the tendency not to "refurbish"
rolling stock, which would require DDA compliance, but to "refresh"),
so something will have to be done to make the stations DDA compliant,
which with the exception of New Cross and Canada Water, they are
presently not. And Wapping, in particular, is very, very cramped, so
it would be very difficult to carry out these sorts of works and
maintain access to the station.

My understanding is the works planned fall under "refreshment" type
rules and hence no new lifts etc will be provided at existing
stations. The various future maps consistently show them as remaining
non-accessible:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/pdf/tube_map2010.pdf
http://www.campaignforcrossrail.com/...fL_trnsprt.pdf

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

On 22 Dec, 20:16, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 22 Dec, 19:50, wrote:

It is a legal requirement that new works and any sort of upgrade must
be DDA compliant (hence, for example, the tendency not to "refurbish"
rolling stock, which would require DDA compliance, but to "refresh"),
so something will have to be done to make the stations DDA compliant,
which with the exception of New Cross and Canada Water, they are
presently not. And Wapping, in particular, is very, very cramped, so
it would be very difficult to carry out these sorts of works and
maintain access to the station.

My understanding is the works planned fall under "refreshment" type
rules and hence no new lifts etc will be provided at existing
stations. The various future maps consistently show them as remaining
non-accessible:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/pdf/tube...ve_tfL_trnsprt...

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

I'm not even sure that it's true that major works do need to be lift-
accessible. I thought the requirement was that a company had to make
reasonable efforts - if the cost was grossly disproportionate to the
benefits I thought a full-accessibility scheme was not required.
Anyway, as Mr Thant says, I don't think there's much work at all
happening at either Wapping or Rotherhithe stations - the bricks and
mortar of the stations (so I thought) will remain completely
unchanged. I'm sure signage will be replaced, and I imagine things
will be cleaned, but neither of these changes would be sufficient to
count as a refurb.

Tom

On 22 Dec, 21:29, Tom Page wrote:
On 22 Dec, 20:16, Mr Thant
wrote:


On 22 Dec, 19:50, wrote:

It is a legal requirement that new works and any sort of upgrade must
be DDA compliant (hence, for example, the tendency not to "refurbish"
rolling stock, which would require DDA compliance, but to "refresh"),
so something will have to be done to make the stations DDA compliant,
which with the exception of New Cross and Canada Water, they are
presently not. And Wapping, in particular, is very, very cramped, so
it would be very difficult to carry out these sorts of works and
maintain access to the station.

My understanding is the works planned fall under "refreshment" type
rules and hence no new lifts etc will be provided at existing
stations. The various future maps consistently show them as remaining
non-accessible:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/pdf/tube...www.campaignfo......

U

--http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

I'm not even sure that it's true that major works do need to be lift-
accessible. I thought the requirement was that a company had to make
reasonable efforts - if the cost was grossly disproportionate to the
benefits I thought a full-accessibility scheme was not required.
Anyway, as Mr Thant says, I don't think there's much work at all
happening at either Wapping or Rotherhithe stations - the bricks and
mortar of the stations (so I thought) will remain completely
unchanged. I'm sure signage will be replaced, and I imagine things
will be cleaned, but neither of these changes would be sufficient to
count as a refurb.

Tom


That's certainly my understanding. All this talk of the DDA is, I
think, a complete red-herring.

AIUI the issue at Rotherhithe and Wapping has been with safety as
opposed to accessibility (that's accessibility in the DDA sense, i.e.
for those whose mobility is impaired).

Both stations operated with a derogation order (or some such similar
bureaucratic device) from the Railway Inspectorate as they fell short
of the normal safety standards for underground stations. I believe the
specific issue was that there was no secondary exit or means of escape
from these stations (perhaps a particularly important issue given that
the existing starircases were a bit steep). This derogation order
could be revoked at any time should the Inspectorate have felt the
situation was dangerous enough to merit doing so.

So Wapping and Rotherhithe were originally not confirmed to be
stations on the new extended ELL. Then interestingly there was an
announcement that they would be included in ELLX phase 1, but their
future under ELLX phase 2 was uncertain. I don't quite understand the
logic behind this. Perhaps this was because the number of people using
these stations, or (and maybe this makes more sense) the number of
passengers aboard the ELLX trains that past through these stations,
was predicted to rise once phase 2 was completed (an bear in mind that
at this time the extension through to Highbury & Islington was part of
phase 2).

Then in August 2004 the Mayor announced that both Wapping and
Rotherhithe were to remain open:
http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...releaseid=4162

I'm sure I read somewhere of talk that keeping these stations open was
possible because new emergency exits (i.e. alternative staircases)
will be constructed at them both. I think I can see how this could be
done at Rotherhithe - by adding some stairs at the far end of the
platforms that would exit onto the pavement of the Rotherhithe tunnel
approach road, but I'm less sure of how it might be done at Wapping.

Perhaps my my understanding of the situation is a bit wonky - but I am
very certain that the DDA doesn't require TfL to install lifts at
these stations. Remember - when the ELLX opens, they will not be new
stations, they will simply be old stations that were temporarily
closed for a period. Legally as well as practically speaking, the East
London Line has not been permanently closed, it is temprarily closed
whilst it is extended. The only part of it that has been permanently
closed is Shoreditch station, and that happened last year.