On Dec 26, 5:42*am, (Adrian the Rock) wrote:

The other extension to Crossrail that seems fairly obvious to me is to
extend the trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington up the
former GW&GC joint line. *Bring the Old Oak - Northolt East line back
into proper use, rebuild the main line platforms at Greenford, making
this the first stop out of Padd, then run all-stations to Princes
Risboro and Aylesbury (some trains probably terminating at High
Wycombe). *But this is clearly too extensive to be sensible to include
in the initial project.

Adie

There are two issues with this idea. Firstly it would mean an
expensive electrification of the route to Aylesbury by way of Prices
Risborough.

Secondly, there is the Birmingham service to consider. It would
either have to remain a DMU operation with many miles under the wire,
or would have to terminate at Risborough or High Wycombe.

Adrian

"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in message
...
On Dec 26, 5:42 am, (Adrian the Rock) wrote:

The other extension to Crossrail that seems fairly obvious to me is to
extend the trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington up the
former GW&GC joint line. Bring the Old Oak - Northolt East line back
into proper use, rebuild the main line platforms at Greenford, making
this the first stop out of Padd, then run all-stations to Princes
Risboro and Aylesbury (some trains probably terminating at High
Wycombe). But this is clearly too extensive to be sensible to include
in the initial project.

Adie

There are two issues with this idea. Firstly it would mean an
expensive electrification of the route to Aylesbury by way of Prices
Risborough.

Provided it is done at the time that life expire stock is to be replaced,
electrification is usually a lower cost option over the total life of the
new stock, however expensive the actual conversion.

Secondly, there is the Birmingham service to consider. It would
either have to remain a DMU operation with many miles under the wire,

Well this wouldn't be the first time. Cross country runs "under the wire"
all the way from Birmingham to Manchester and York to Edinburgh, which is
much further than this piddly little bit of track to PR.

tim

In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

According to Barker & Robbins (A History of London Transport), the
Gunnersbury branch was authorised in 1913.

So before it was decided to take over the route from Hammersmith, on
which regular services ceased in 1916, instead.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in
message

...
On Dec 26, 5:42 am, (Adrian the Rock) wrote:

The other extension to Crossrail that seems fairly obvious to me is
to
extend the trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington up the
former GW&GC joint line. Bring the Old Oak - Northolt East line back
into proper use, rebuild the main line platforms at Greenford, making
this the first stop out of Padd, then run all-stations to Princes
Risboro and Aylesbury (some trains probably terminating at High
Wycombe). But this is clearly too extensive to be sensible to include
in the initial project.

There are two issues with this idea. Firstly it would mean an
expensive electrification of the route to Aylesbury by way of
Prices Risborough.

Provided it is done at the time that life expire stock is to be
replaced, electrification is usually a lower cost option over the
total life of the new stock, however expensive the actual
conversion.

Secondly, there is the Birmingham service to consider. It would
either have to remain a DMU operation with many miles under the
wire,

Well this wouldn't be the first time. Cross country runs "under
the wire" all the way from Birmingham to Manchester and York to
Edinburgh, which is much further than this piddly little bit of
track to PR.

How much longer though? Aren't some of those routes being handed over to
VWC?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in
message

...
On Dec 26, 5:42 am, (Adrian the Rock) wrote:

The other extension to Crossrail that seems fairly obvious to me is
to
extend the trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington up the
former GW&GC joint line. Bring the Old Oak - Northolt East line back
into proper use, rebuild the main line platforms at Greenford, making
this the first stop out of Padd, then run all-stations to Princes
Risboro and Aylesbury (some trains probably terminating at High
Wycombe). But this is clearly too extensive to be sensible to include
in the initial project.

There are two issues with this idea. Firstly it would mean an
expensive electrification of the route to Aylesbury by way of
Prices Risborough.

Provided it is done at the time that life expire stock is to be
replaced, electrification is usually a lower cost option over the
total life of the new stock, however expensive the actual
conversion.

Secondly, there is the Birmingham service to consider. It would
either have to remain a DMU operation with many miles under the
wire,

Well this wouldn't be the first time. Cross country runs "under
the wire" all the way from Birmingham to Manchester and York to
Edinburgh, which is much further than this piddly little bit of
track to PR.

How much longer though? Aren't some of those routes being handed over to
VWC?


Not the Manchester services, VWC have already taken over Birmingham to
Edinburgh/Glasgow via WCML, but are still using their 'pro rata' share of
theVoyagers, rather than Pendolinos [normally].

Birmingham to Man Picc stayed with (Arriva)XC. The next planned change, Dec
2008, is just to make the XC network more inflexible, with for example
nearly all Bournemouth trains heading for Manchester and all from Reading
heading for Newcastle...

Paul S

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(tim.....) wrote:

"Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS" wrote in
message

...
On Dec 26, 5:42 am, (Adrian the Rock) wrote:

The other extension to Crossrail that seems fairly obvious to me is
to
extend the trains currently planned to terminate at Paddington up the
former GW&GC joint line. Bring the Old Oak - Northolt East line back
into proper use, rebuild the main line platforms at Greenford, making
this the first stop out of Padd, then run all-stations to Princes
Risboro and Aylesbury (some trains probably terminating at High
Wycombe). But this is clearly too extensive to be sensible to include
in the initial project.

There are two issues with this idea. Firstly it would mean an
expensive electrification of the route to Aylesbury by way of
Prices Risborough.

Provided it is done at the time that life expire stock is to be
replaced, electrification is usually a lower cost option over the
total life of the new stock, however expensive the actual
conversion.

Secondly, there is the Birmingham service to consider. It would
either have to remain a DMU operation with many miles under the
wire,

Well this wouldn't be the first time. Cross country runs "under
the wire" all the way from Birmingham to Manchester and York to
Edinburgh, which is much further than this piddly little bit of
track to PR.

How much longer though?

Do you mean in time?

Surely that's irrelevent. The principle has been established for the past
10 (ish) years.

Aren't some of those routes being handed over to
VWC?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

According to Barker & Robbins (A History of London Transport), the
Gunnersbury branch was authorised in 1913.

So before it was decided to take over the route from Hammersmith, on
which regular services ceased in 1916, instead.

Yes, Barker & Robbins say that a short tunnel to link Shepherd's Bush
(Central Railway) to the old LSWR route via Hammersmith Grove Road was
authorised in 1920, but that never came to anything either. The LSWR
tracks were later incorporated into the 1932 scheme which extended the
Piccadilly west of Hammersmith. Actually, the 1920 map already shows an
extension of the Piccadilly to Ravenscourt Park.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

"tim....." writes:

Well this wouldn't be the first time. Cross country runs "under the wire"
all the way from Birmingham to Manchester and York to Edinburgh, which is
much further than this piddly little bit of track to PR.

Which they did not used to do. I remember just after the Leamington Spa
to Coventry line was re-opened to passenger traffic that trains between
the South Coast and Liverpool/Manchester used to swap between Diesel and
Electric traction at Coventry (as well as often changing locos at
Reading rather than the pre-voyager practice of the same loco having to
run round)

On Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Richard J. wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 28 Dec 2007, Mr Thant wrote:

On 28 Dec, 09:57, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
Could they not just transfer that bit back to the District line
using a few more of the new S stock to provide the traction, and
up the Picc frequency to Heathrow?

But then you'd have to take trains away from the other District
branches, or find more capacity further east. Rumour is that the
District Ealing Broadway and Piccadilly Uxbridge branches will
swap over at some point, but I don't think this plan has any official
status.

New to me.

There's been a plan hanging around for decades now for a couple of
miles of tunnel from Shepherd's Bush to Turnham Green, by means of
which the Central line could take over the Richmond branch of the
District.

It even made the Tube Map in (I think) 1920, with a branch of the Central
London Railway from Shepherd's Bush to Gunnersbury shown as "under
construction", though it never was AFAIK. According to this map poster,
which is on show at the Museum Depot during open weekends, stations were
planned at Goldhawk Road, Stamford Brook Common,

Is that (the common) he

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51.4...&t=h&z=17&om=1

? I can't actually find anything marked with that name on any maps!

If it is, i'm a little surprised it was quite that far west - i would have
thought Seven Stars Corner (Addenswick Rd x Goldhawk Rd) would have been a
better location. Seems not!

Turnham Green (next to the existing station), Turnham Green (near the
green) and Gunnersbury. The Central extension from Wood Lane to Ealing
Broadway is also shown as "under construction", and it was opened later
in 1920.

It seems strange that they wanted to keep the route in tunnel all the way
to Gunnersbury; the current track layout means you can surface at Turnham
Green and go from there (via Chiswick Park, ish) without getting in
anyone's way. Maybe it wasn't always like that, or they thought a stop at
the Green itself was more useful.

There's a photo of the map at http://rjnews.fotopic.net/p47472218.html

Splendid! Although that map's geography is a bit suspect with respect to
the exact positions of roads and stations and things.

tom

--
unconstrained by any considerations of humanity or decency

"Tom Anderson" wrote

It seems strange that they wanted to keep the route in tunnel all the way
to Gunnersbury; the current track layout means you can surface at Turnham
Green and go from there (via Chiswick Park, ish) without getting in
anyone's way. Maybe it wasn't always like that, or they thought a stop at
the Green itself was more useful.

The situation in 1920 was that the District had been electrified by 1905 to
Wimbledon, Richmond, Hounslow Barracks (later renamed West), Ealing
Broadway, and South Harrow. This used the LSWR between Hammersmith (Studland
Road Junction) and Turnham Green, though this section had been quadrupled in
1905, with the District having sole use of the southern electrified pair.
The LSWR service, which used the northern pair, ran from Addison Road (now
Olympia) via Hammersmith Grove Road to Richmond, and was withdrawn in 1916,
leaving this pair of lines derelict (but still in the ownership of the
LSWR).

This meant that the District was congested west of Earls Court, so the
proposal to extend the Central Line to Richmond would have provided relief.
In the event, the LSWR service was never reinstated. In 1932 tracks between
Hammersmith and Turnham Green were rearranged, quadrupling was extended to
Northfields, and the Piccadilly was extended to take over the Hounslow and
South Harrow (extended to Rayners Lane and over the Met to Uxbridge) lines.
Even then, Studland Road Junction to Turnham Green remained in SR ownership,
leased to the District (as part of the Underground group, soon to be
absorbed into the London Passenger Transport Board).

Peter