In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On 4 Jan, 00:39, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,

(Clive.) wrote:
It is unfair that London pensioners should be able to use the
public transport in other cities (buses) but non-Londoners cannot
make use of the tube which is standard PT in London, as pensioners
down there can.

Blame the Government. They have made the silly rules on this free bus
scheme.

Are they really such silly rules? Would you let all English pensioners
use the railway network across England for example?

TBH, I wouldn't give free travel. It encourages wasteful journeys and
distorts modal splits. I would give discounts to reflect that they are
filling empty off-peak seats and better pensions so that pensioners can
make their own choices.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On 4 Jan, 00:39, (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote:
In article ,


Blame the Government. They have made the silly rules on this free bus
scheme.

Are they really such silly rules? Would you let all English pensioners
use the railway network across England for example?

TBH, I wouldn't give free travel. It encourages wasteful journeys and
distorts modal splits. I would give discounts to reflect that they are
filling empty off-peak seats and better pensions so that pensioners can
make their own choices.


There's a real possibility that the free bus travel will wipe out daytime
train travel by the over 60s in some rural areas. I'm sure one of the
regional rail companies has already found this. South Wales perhaps?

By the way, how do TfL calculate/reimburse the travel costs of Freedom Pass
holders on National Rail in the London area?

Paul S

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:32:28 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

There's a real possibility that the free bus travel will wipe out daytime
train travel by the over 60s in some rural areas. I'm sure one of the
regional rail companies has already found this. South Wales perhaps?

Before the current scheme went live, Stagecoach were planning to
increase capacity on some south coast services, on the expectation
that there would be a transfer from paid-for rail to free bus. The 700
service between Brighton and Portsmouth has seen considerable
enhancement in frequency.

Just how much transfer there has been between modes does not seem to
have been studied, or if it has, the results have not been published.

Personally, on the odd occasions when I wish to go to Brighton, I now
walk to the end of the lane and catch the bus, rather than drive to
the Park and Ride, or catch the train, having driven to the station
and paid to park.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

In message , Paul Scott
writes

By the way, how do TfL calculate/reimburse the travel costs of Freedom
Pass holders on National Rail in the London area?

It's worth pointing out that 60+ residents in the West Midlands get
local train travel, too, as do those in some (but not all) other PTE
areas.

As the new scheme is for free *bus* travel, this is all it gives. Some
local authorities will continue to finance extra benefits such as
train/metro travel but these are funded locally and are not part of the
national scheme.

I am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age. A bit like a more useful
version of the traditional retirement clock, if that's not too fanciful.

I do however, see some *very* problematic consequences of this in some
areas for demographic reasons; Blackpool and Torquay spring to mind.
(Notwithstanding the above, will the scheme give free bus travel in
Blackpool to "visiting" 60+ people but exclude the trams?)

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Ian Jelf
writes
I am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age.
I find this very offensive. I've paid full tax and N.I. All my life,
why should I now be a second class citizen to a "Londoner"?
--
Clive.

Clive. wrote:
In message , Ian Jelf
writes
I am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age.
I find this very offensive. I've paid full tax and N.I. All my
life, why should I now be a second class citizen to a "Londoner"?

Because your council has not opted to fund free travel on local trains
for you, whereas those in London have. It's called local democracy. It
means your council tax is lower. Some people might regard that as an
advantage.

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

In message , Clive.
writes
In message , Ian Jelf
writes
I am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age.
I find this very offensive.
I wasn't intending to offend you and I can't see how I have by saying
that I believe in a free local travel system.

I've paid full tax and N.I. All my life, why should I now be a
second class citizen to a "Londoner"?
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

On 4 Jan, 23:52, "Clive." wrote:
In message , Ian Jelf
writesI am a believer in free local travel for older people, not as a
poverty-relieving measure but as a tangible "gift" from society to
someone who has attained a certain age.

I find this very offensive. I've paid full tax and N.I. All my life,
why should I now be a second class citizen to a "Londoner"?
--
Clive.

Because you don't live in London. Each of the London Borough councils
pay for this benefit for the residents of their borough. If you came
to live in London then you'd get free travel. Simple.

In message , Ian Jelf
writes

I do however, see some *very* problematic consequences of this in some
areas for demographic reasons; Blackpool and Torquay spring to mind.
(Notwithstanding the above, will the scheme give free bus travel in
Blackpool to "visiting" 60+ people but exclude the trams?)

Blackpool's scheme doesn't include trams, hence them now running route 1
(following the trams), initially to cover for winter engineering works,
but later because over 60s passes won't be valid on the trams.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:32:28 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

There's a real possibility that the free bus travel will wipe out daytime
train travel by the over 60s in some rural areas. I'm sure one of the
regional rail companies has already found this. South Wales perhaps?

Worse than that, it results in an effectively *subsidised* bus service
competing with the already-subsidised rail service, thus increasing
the required subsidy for the trains and thus proving a waste of money
and a contradiction to the concept of an integrated network.

The example I can think of is the Conwy Valley, where there is now a
local agreement to accept the bus passes, and the "competing" and
predatory bus service seems to now be suffering from a bit of a lack
of passengers.

Niel

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.