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[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
Right,
In this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma...roenclaves.xml about exclaves, there are two dodgy assertions. Firstly: "[Ely Place] is a little corner of Cambridgeshire, still enjoying freedom from entry by the Metropolitan Police, except by invitation of the Commissioners of Ely Place" I don't dispute that Ely Place was technically a part of Cambridgeshire for centuries (a joyously bonkers story), but another source states that "Cambridgeshire officially handed over jurisdiction of Ely Place to Camden Council sometime in the 1970's". Secondly: "according to EU regulations, all inter-EU mail has to go though a sorting office in Amsterdam." Which seems very, very unlikely indeed to be true. Anyone got any ideas about these? I'm asking on utl because it's frequented by the kind of person who i feel might know. tom -- Science is bound, by the everlasting vow of honour, to face fearlessly every problem which can be fairly presented to it. -- Lord Kelvin |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
Tom Anderson wrote:
Right, In this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma...roenclaves.xml about exclaves, there are two dodgy assertions. Firstly: "[Ely Place] is a little corner of Cambridgeshire, still enjoying freedom from entry by the Metropolitan Police, except by invitation of the Commissioners of Ely Place" I don't dispute that Ely Place was technically a part of Cambridgeshire for centuries (a joyously bonkers story), but another source states that "Cambridgeshire officially handed over jurisdiction of Ely Place to Camden Council sometime in the 1970's". Cambridgeshire council told me something broadly similar when I e-mailed them to ask a couple of years ago. Secondly: "according to EU regulations, all inter-EU mail has to go though a sorting office in Amsterdam." Which seems very, very unlikely indeed to be true. Anyone got any ideas about these? I'm asking on utl because it's frequented by the kind of person who i feel might know. A big company I used to work for sent outbound mail through some private company, which then sent all the post via (I think) Germany en route to its destination. We'd occasionally get phone calls from people puzzled by seeing German markings on the envelopes. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
Arthur Figgis wrote:
A big company I used to work for sent outbound mail through some private company, which then sent all the post via (I think) Germany en route to its destination. We'd occasionally get phone calls from people puzzled by seeing German markings on the envelopes. I frequently get mass mailings from American companies I do business with via Germany. -- Michael Hoffman |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:45:35 +0000, Arthur Figgis
wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: Right, In this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma...roenclaves.xml about exclaves, there are two dodgy assertions. Firstly: "[Ely Place] is a little corner of Cambridgeshire, still enjoying freedom from entry by the Metropolitan Police, except by invitation of the Commissioners of Ely Place" I don't dispute that Ely Place was technically a part of Cambridgeshire for centuries (a joyously bonkers story), but another source states that "Cambridgeshire officially handed over jurisdiction of Ely Place to Camden Council sometime in the 1970's". Cambridgeshire council told me something broadly similar when I e-mailed them to ask a couple of years ago. I used to work in Ye Olde Mitre, the pub in Ely Court (between Ely Place and Hatton Garden). AFAIK the Ely-Place-in-Cambs situation ended in 1965 with the creation of the GLC and current London Boroughs, although it was a good story which still survives in spite of its not being true anymore! At one time I believe the licence for the pub was issued by the Cambridgeshire magistrates. The connection with Cambridgeshire comes from the still-extant RC church of St Etheldreda's which came under the Bishops of Ely's control as it was the chapel attached to their London palace. A fascinating history is he http://www.stetheldreda.com/history.html -- Ken -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
On Jan 5, 2:39*pm, Michael Hoffman wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote: A big company I used to work for sent outbound mail through some private company, which then sent all the post via (I think) Germany en route to its destination. We'd occasionally get phone calls from people puzzled by seeing German markings on the envelopes. I frequently get mass mailings from American companies I do business with via Germany. -- Michael Hoffman DHL or TNT or some such is owned by Deutsche Post, so I imagine they fly all their stuff from the US to Europe in to Germany and then distribute it. Tim |
Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
TimB wrote:
On Jan 5, 2:39 pm, Michael Hoffman wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: A big company I used to work for sent outbound mail through some private company, which then sent all the post via (I think) Germany en route to its destination. We'd occasionally get phone calls from people puzzled by seeing German markings on the envelopes. I frequently get mass mailings from American companies I do business with via Germany. -- Michael Hoffman DHL or TNT or some such is owned by Deutsche Post, so I imagine they fly all their stuff from the US to Europe in to Germany and then distribute it. DHL is. The items actually get Deutsche Post stamps on them! -- Michael Hoffman |
Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
On 5 Jan, 18:23, Michael Hoffman wrote:
A big company I used to work for sent outbound mail through some private company, which then sent all the post via (I think) Germany en route to its destination. We'd occasionally get phone calls from people puzzled by seeing German markings on the envelopes. I frequently get mass mailings from American companies I do business with via Germany. DHL or TNT or some such is owned by Deutsche Post, so I imagine they fly all their stuff from the US to Europe in to Germany and then distribute it. DHL is. The items actually get Deutsche Post stamps on them! ....while TNT is owned by the Dutch post office. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 06:13:40 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote: ...while TNT is owned by the Dutch post office. And DPD actually stands for "Deutscher Paketdienst", not "Direct Parcel Distribution" or any of the other translations that are usually quoted. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
In message , Ken
writes On Sat, 05 Jan 2008 11:45:35 +0000, Arthur Figgis wrote: Tom Anderson wrote: Right, In this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ma.../2003/01/04/et enclaves.xml about exclaves, there are two dodgy assertions. Firstly: "[Ely Place] is a little corner of Cambridgeshire, still enjoying freedom from entry by the Metropolitan Police, except by invitation of the Commissioners of Ely Place" I don't dispute that Ely Place was technically a part of Cambridgeshire for centuries (a joyously bonkers story), but another source states that "Cambridgeshire officially handed over jurisdiction of Ely Place to Camden Council sometime in the 1970's". Cambridgeshire council told me something broadly similar when I e-mailed them to ask a couple of years ago. I used to work in Ye Olde Mitre, the pub in Ely Court (between Ely Place and Hatton Garden). AFAIK the Ely-Place-in-Cambs situation ended in 1965 with the creation of the GLC and current London Boroughs, although it was a good story which still survives in spite of its not being true anymore! At one time I believe the licence for the pub was issued by the Cambridgeshire magistrates. The connection with Cambridgeshire comes from the still-extant RC church of St Etheldreda's which came under the Bishops of Ely's control as it was the chapel attached to their London palace. A fascinating history is he http://www.stetheldreda.com/history.html Sort of. It wasn't the creation of the (new) London Boroughs in 1965 that brought the jurisdiction to en end; that had effectively already happened years before. However, Ely Place remains an administratively unusual corner of London, remarkably famous for not being part of something than for being part of it. To try to add to what's already been said....... The site was that of a London home of the Bishops of Ely from at least the late 13th century. They were one of a number of Bishops who exercised "!temporal" (secular, if you like) as well as spiritual power within their area. Indeed, their "Liberty" around Ely eventually grew into a (virtually [it's a long story and this isn't the place to tell it]) separate county to Cambridgeshire. This area, the "Palatine of the Isle of Ely", included the Bishop's Palace in London, hence its administrative isolation from the City of London. The Bishops actually started to lose control of the area in the reign of Elizabeth I. She actually forced them out of part of it so that her Chancellor, Sir Christopher Hatton, could build a town house of his own there. (It is he who gives his name to the adjoining Hatton Garden.) They abandoned the rest in 1772 for a new home in Dover Street, off Piccadilly (the former name of a LU station; how's that for getting back on topic for utl?!). Ely House, the former Bishops' Palace, was then demolished and the whole area redeveloped. Ownership then passed to the Crown and any "real" connection with Ely ceased. However, it was still not administratively part of the City and for policing purposes existed in something of a limbo. Shades of Burgundy in "Passport to Pimlico". Therefore, a special Act of Parliament established commissioners and a Beadle to oversee law and order and - just to confirm the enclave as Not Being in The City - responsibility for paying for this and for licensing was vested in the Ely authorities. This had the side-effect of requiring the licence for the Mire inn to be issued in Ely. (These are the "Commissioners of Ely Place" mentioned in the Telegraph article.) In more recent times, a member of the Ely police force was attached to the City of London Police. In effect, Ely just paid a nominal sum to the City of London Police for this. Even this finished around 1903 (I can't find an on-line mention of a date for this; I'm using notes from my Blue Badge course). The Telegraph article has muddled up a few things. One is that although exempt from the writ of the Metropolitan Police.......it would be, as it's in the City. What they;re trying to say is "exempt from the writ of the City of London Police". The other is them talking about things being historically run from Cambridgeshire. They mean The Isle of Ely, which was a separate County from c1107 until 1965. Anyway, for all that Ely Place is still exempt from the authority of the City Corporation and therefore of the Lord Mayor. One of those delightful little "quirks" of London life. Hope this helps a bit. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
In message , Ian Jelf
writes The Telegraph article has muddled up a few things. One is that although exempt from the writ of the Metropolitan Police.......it would be, as it's in the City. That'll be news to the London Borough of Camden, then, since they seem to think that Ely Place is in their borough: http://www3.camden.gov.uk/templates/...teBaseURL#/udp Anyway, for all that Ely Place is still exempt from the authority of the City Corporation and therefore of the Lord Mayor. I believe that most parts of the London Borough of Camden are similarly exempt :) The city boundary runs along Charterhouse Street - Ely place is just north of it, in Camden (and therefore in the Metropolitan Police District). -- Paul Terry |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
In message , Paul Terry
writes In message , Ian Jelf writes The Telegraph article has muddled up a few things. One is that although exempt from the writ of the Metropolitan Police.......it would be, as it's in the City. That'll be news to the London Borough of Camden, then, since they seem to think that Ely Place is in their borough: http://www3.camden.gov.uk/templates/...lb_no=380#appM ainSiteBaseURL#/udp Anyway, for all that Ely Place is still exempt from the authority of the City Corporation and therefore of the Lord Mayor. I believe that most parts of the London Borough of Camden are similarly exempt :) The city boundary runs along Charterhouse Street - Ely place is just north of it, in Camden (and therefore in the Metropolitan Police District). Now I *know* this is going to look like back-pedaling on my part grin but as all my notes refer to Ely Place's exemption from City (and Mayoral) jurisdiction, I wonder if this is one of those places where the City boundary has moved slightly since mediaeval times? After all ,there would have been nothing "special" about it being outside the jurisdiction of the City if it wasn't "within" it. If it had always been outside the City, then any "exemptions" would have referred to it being outside the jurisdiction of Middlesex (pre 1888) or the County of London (post 1888). I have been genuinely surprised by the lack of online information about this subject. Anyone have any earlier boundary maps to hand? Sorry for any inaccuracies posted, anyway. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
In message , Ian Jelf
writes Now I *know* this is going to look like back-pedaling on my part grin but as all my notes refer to Ely Place's exemption from City (and Mayoral) jurisdiction, I wonder if this is one of those places where the City boundary has moved slightly since mediaeval times? Always possible, although most ward boundaries have not moved greatly. What I think may be more significant is that most senior bishops set-up their London residences outside the city: Canterbury in Lambeth, Durham and Norwich in the Strand, Winchester in Southwark, Ely just north of Farringdon ... -- Paul Terry |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
Ian Jelf wrote:
In message , Paul Terry writes [...] The city boundary runs along Charterhouse Street - Ely place is just north of it, in Camden (and therefore in the Metropolitan Police District). Now I *know* this is going to look like back-pedaling on my part grin but as all my notes refer to Ely Place's exemption from City (and Mayoral) jurisdiction, I wonder if this is one of those places where the City boundary has moved slightly since mediaeval times? After all ,there would have been nothing "special" about it being outside the jurisdiction of the City if it wasn't "within" it. If it had always been outside the City, then any "exemptions" would have referred to it being outside the jurisdiction of Middlesex (pre 1888) or the County of London (post 1888). I have been genuinely surprised by the lack of online information about this subject. Anyone have any earlier boundary maps to hand? 1956: City boundary still shown as running across the southern end of Ely Place (Bartholomew street atlas) At http://www.zigguratonline.com/clerkenwellhisto.html : "In medieval times, the Bishop of Ely was a powerful man. He built his palace just outside the City of London, at nearby Ely Place." At http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=63117 there's a digest of historical mentions of Ely Place which includes: "Ely Court: outside the City boundary (Bacon, 1912)." and "Six messuages and forty acres of land in Ely (in) London, the suburb of London and the parish of St. Andrew Holeburn to be alienated to the prior and convent of Ely, 1335-9 (Cal. P.R. Ed. III. 1334-8, p. 107)." At http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/M...w/churches.htm : "Holborn, St.Andrew, Holborn Viaduct [mediæval - pre-Conquest -before 951] parish originally partly within the City jurisdiction, partly in Middlesex." -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
In message , Richard
J. writes 1956: City boundary still shown as running across the southern end of Ely Place (Bartholomew street atlas) At http://www.zigguratonline.com/clerkenwellhisto.html : "In medieval times, the Bishop of Ely was a powerful man. He built his palace just outside the City of London, at nearby Ely Place." At http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=63117 there's a digest of historical mentions of Ely Place which includes: "Ely Court: outside the City boundary (Bacon, 1912)." and "Six messuages and forty acres of land in Ely (in) London, the suburb of London and the parish of St. Andrew Holeburn to be alienated to the prior and convent of Ely, 1335-9 (Cal. P.R. Ed. III. 1334-8, p. 107)." At http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/M...w/churches.htm : "Holborn, St.Andrew, Holborn Viaduct [mediæval - pre-Conquest -before 951] parish originally partly within the City jurisdiction, partly in Middlesex." So apart from that last item, nothing to suggest a former presence in (or "within") the City. I've since had a look at the London Encyclopaedia (p266-7). This makes the statement that Ely place "does not form part of the City of London and is exempt from the authority of the Lord Mayor" (I think this might have been the original source for the lecture on which my notes were based. I also have a possibly erroneous mental image of an "Ely Place" street sign in the City Corporation style, white with a black border and with the city coat of arms at the side. Methinks a trip to have a look is overdue! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
This is all great stuff and I'd like to thank all the contributors so
far. I am overdue for a trip to the Old Mitre anyway so I might try and pop down next week. |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article , (Ian Jelf) wrote: I also have a possibly erroneous mental image of an "Ely Place" street sign in the City Corporation style, white with a black border and with the city coat of arms at the side. I think so. I expect 'll be in that area on the evening of 16 January next week but I'm not sure what one might see in the dark. Not a lot from Charterhouse Street, and Ely Place itself will probably be locked. |
[OT] Ely Place, Cambridgeshire and mail sorting in Amsterdam
In article ,
(John Rowland) wrote: Colin Rosenstiel wrote: In article , (Ian Jelf) wrote: I also have a possibly erroneous mental image of an "Ely Place" street sign in the City Corporation style, white with a black border and with the city coat of arms at the side. I think so. I expect 'll be in that area on the evening of 16 January next week but I'm not sure what one might see in the dark. Not a lot from Charterhouse Street, and Ely Place itself will probably be locked. I was thinking of street name plates. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
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