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Old LT Garages
Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to
track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 1) The original Kingston garage in Richmond Road. Where on Richmond Road was it? 2) The ex-Metroline garage somewhere on Victoria Road, between Gypsy Corner and Old Oak Lane (Not to be confused with the PRESENT depot on Atlas Road just off the northern end of Victoria Road) 3) The depot at Hornchurch. Strictly speaking, this was NOT in Hornchurch, but on Hornchurch Road, west of Hornchurch proper. I suspect that it was on the north side of Hornchurch Road a couple of hundred yards east of Roneo Corner. Could anyone confirm/correct my guess? 4) Where are the Mitcham Belle Darts garaged? There is no way they can get into the yard at 223 Streatham Road. I have found a Mitcham Belle depot, just south of Beddington Lane Tram stop, but it looked deserted. 5) Where was Riverside Garage? I thought it was somewhere on the one-way system surrounding the current bus station, but a photograph I saw said it was on Talgarth Road. 6) Where was Hammersmith depot? I am talking about the former trolleybus & BEA coach garage. Was it in Great Church Lane? 7) Exactly where on Shrubland Road was Dalston Depot? I have walked the full length of it, and there is no evidence that there was a depot here. For some reason the street name “Ivydene Avenue” comes to mind, but that name does not appear in my A-to-Z. 8) Sovereign Buses had a depot somewhere in Borehamwood, in the days when it was called BTS (BT survives as a depot code for vehicles allocated to Edgware). Where was this depot in Borehamwood? 9) I know that the former Seven Kings depot was on the south side of the main road between Seven Kings and Goodmayes railway stations. Am I right in assuming that it was opposite Blythswood Road? 10) There is a "new" operator around Debden called “DOCKLANDS MINIBUSES” with a “legal-lettering” address of St. Marys Road (?) in Upminster. The address turns out to be the office of an accountant specialising in tax-avoidance (or something similar)! Where are the vehicles garaged? 11) The depot that effectively replaced Loughton appears to be Debden, with codes DB and DD. Where is it? Someone told me that it is in Langston Road, but when I went there, I could only find a lorry park where there were some buses parked. Surely this cannot be it? 12) The original Uxbridge depot (before the present one next to the tube station) was in Denham Road. Exactly where? 13) Am I correct in assuming that the site of the Sidcup Garage (at Foots Cray) is now occupied by a LIDL store (who have also built stores on the sites of Hackney(H), Hanwell(HL) and Rye Lane Peckham (RL) Thanks in advance |
Old LT Garages
Nick Hewitt wrote:
Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 5) Where was Riverside Garage? I thought it was somewhere on the one-way system surrounding the current bus station, but a photograph I saw said it was on Talgarth Road. It was, There was an entrance in Talgarth Road and the exit round the corner. Here are some photos:- http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg01.jpg http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg02.jpg http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg03.jpg |
Old LT Garages
In message , Piccadilly.Pilot
writes 5) Where was Riverside Garage? I thought it was somewhere on the one-way system surrounding the current bus station, but a photograph I saw said it was on Talgarth Road. It was, There was an entrance in Talgarth Road Not exactly. The entrance was in Great Church Street, below the Hammersmith Flyover. I'm not sure whether the latter can still be called Talgarth Road once it merges into the flyover, but the bus garage was undoubtedly situated at ground level, just to the east of the exit from the current Hammersmith Bus Station. and the exit round the corner. Here are some photos:- http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg01.jpg That photo shows the exit in Queen Caroline Street. The building is still there (just), now converted to Smollensky's restaurant. When coming off the A4 from the west it is the one brick building in a sea of glass and concrete that is almost directly in front of you as you enter the Hammersmith one-way system - although what you see is the back of the original building (read on). It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge 16th-century Butterwick House. The latter was demolished in 1836 and the District Railway eventually built its Hammersmith terminus in the grounds. Bradmore House itself survived and still looked pristine in photos of the early 20th century. Then, in an act of breathtaking vandalism, the London General Omnibus Company purchased the Georgian building in 1913, removed its innards in order to create a garage and knocked holes large enough to take double-deckers in the back (the west side) of each of its wings. These can be seen in photo 2 (below) that you found. Later most of the front (east side) was removed in order to provide access through the former front garden of the house to the new, larger garage just round the corner (photo 3). It was all renamed Riverside Garage in 1950. The "restoration" of Bradmore House as part of the Broadway Centre in the 1990s was a nice gesture - but as much because it relieves the vast and undistinguished bulk of the rest, rather than as a real restoration as such. A little of the rear (west) facade was saved - click the link at http://www.lambsbricks.com/nav/info_projects_03.htm - but most of it is totally new construction in the style of the original. http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg02.jpg That's a clearer picture of the same. http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg03.jpg That's the entrance in Great Church Street - the Hammersmith Flyover extension of Talgarth Road is seen passing overhead, so its very close. -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
In message , Nick
Hewitt writes 5) Where was Riverside Garage? I thought it was somewhere on the one-way system surrounding the current bus station, but a photograph I saw said it was on Talgarth Road. It was in Great Church Street which is indeed on the present one-way system. It was just to the east of the exit from the new Hammersmith Bus Station (see other post). 6) Where was Hammersmith depot? I am talking about the former trolleybus & BEA coach garage. Was it in Great Church Lane? No, it was certainly not the same garage as Riverside - I think the bus garage was renamed as "Riverside" in order to avoid confusion between the two. I'm almost certain that the trolleybus depot was in Shepherd's Bush Road, next to the old Osram Lamp Factory (now Tesco) facing Brook Green, and backing onto more LT land (the Hammersmith & City line depot). There's a picture at http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm (scroll down to the bottom left). -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
"Nick Hewitt" wrote: Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- (snip) 3) The depot at Hornchurch. Strictly speaking, this was NOT in Hornchurch, but on Hornchurch Road, west of Hornchurch proper. I suspect that it was on the north side of Hornchurch Road a couple of hundred yards east of Roneo Corner. Could anyone confirm/correct my guess? The garage was on the south side of Hornchurch Road, roughly opposite the junction with Hyland Way. It was separated from the junction with Candover Road by a small parade of shops, which remain, though the garage site has been redeveloped as housing. Also, though the garage was well out of town, that location does carry a Hornchurch, rather than Romford, postal address, and is much closer to the former. I wonder how the garage got the RD code? Romford Garage, of course, carrying the NS code and being known to this day as North Street. Chris |
Old LT Garages
In message , Nick
Hewitt writes Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 1) The original Kingston garage in Richmond Road. Where on Richmond Road was it? I wouldn't be surprised if this is simply the garage in Clarence Street that closed only recently when the new bus station opened around the corner in Cromwell Road. What is now called Clarence Street is shown as the southernmost part of Richmond Road in my 1948 A-Z map of the area. -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
"Nick Hewitt" wrote in message om... Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 10) There is a "new" operator around Debden called “DOCKLANDS MINIBUSES” with a “legal-lettering” address of St. Marys Road (?) in Upminster. The address turns out to be the office of an accountant specialising in tax-avoidance (or something similar)! Where are the vehicles garaged? Quixley St - E14 |
Old LT Garages
"Nick Hewitt" wrote in message om... Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 1) The original Kingston garage in Richmond Road. Where on Richmond Road was it? This is the garage that closed in 2000 and is now a cinema complex. Richmond Road was renamed Clarence Road at some point 2) The ex-Metroline garage somewhere on Victoria Road, between Gypsy Corner and Old Oak Lane (Not to be confused with the PRESENT depot on Atlas Road just off the northern end of Victoria Road) The old R & I tours garage? It was on the one way system just off the A40. It closed in 2000 and I believe is being redeveloped. 4) Where are the Mitcham Belle Darts garaged? There is no way they can get into the yard at 223 Streatham Road. I have found a Mitcham Belle depot, just south of Beddington Lane Tram stop, but it looked deserted. The buses are at the DETR depot on Redhouse Road Croydon 7) Exactly where on Shrubland Road was Dalston Depot? I have walked the full length of it, and there is no evidence that there was a depot here. For some reason the street name “Ivydene Avenue” comes to mind, but that name does not appear in my A-to-Z. Was on Iveydene Road. I believe the whole area has been redeveloped totally. 8) Sovereign Buses had a depot somewhere in Borehamwood, in the days when it was called BTS (BT survives as a depot code for vehicles allocated to Edgware). Where was this depot in Borehamwood? By the station. Again the area has been redeveloped removing all trace of previous use. 11) The depot that effectively replaced Loughton appears to be Debden, with codes DB and DD. Where is it? Someone told me that it is in Langston Road, but when I went there, I could only find a lorry park where there were some buses parked. Surely this cannot be it? Wrong. Loughton closed in May 1986 due to various tendering losses. The yard (lorry park as you say ) that Arriva Shires park the buses for their tendered services in is a fairly recent addition. 12) The original Uxbridge depot (before the present one next to the tube station) was in Denham Road. Exactly where? Funnily I drove along Denham Road yesterday and couldn't see any sign of the old depot. I believe it was about a mile or so out of town 13) Am I correct in assuming that the site of the Sidcup Garage (at Foots Cray) is now occupied by a LIDL store (who have also built stores on the sites of Hackney(H), Hanwell(HL) and Rye Lane Peckham (RL) Yes Hope this helps Paul |
Old LT Garages
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , Nick Hewitt writes 5) Where was Riverside Garage? I thought it was somewhere on the one-way system surrounding the current bus station, but a photograph I saw said it was on Talgarth Road. It was in Great Church Street which is indeed on the present one-way system. It was just to the east of the exit from the new Hammersmith Bus Station (see other post). 6) Where was Hammersmith depot? I am talking about the former trolleybus & BEA coach garage. Was it in Great Church Lane? No, it was certainly not the same garage as Riverside - I think the bus garage was renamed as "Riverside" in order to avoid confusion between the two. I'm almost certain that the trolleybus depot was in Shepherd's Bush Road, next to the old Osram Lamp Factory (now Tesco) facing Brook Green, and backing onto more LT land (the Hammersmith & City line depot). There's a picture at http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm (scroll down to the bottom left). Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station. They were all demolished when the current Hammersmith one-way system was developed. The road now called Butterwick covers much of the land where these buildings stood. Rob Griffith |
Old LT Garages
In message , rob
writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... I'm almost certain that the trolleybus depot was in Shepherd's Bush Road, next to the old Osram Lamp Factory (now Tesco) facing Brook Green, and backing onto more LT land (the Hammersmith & City line depot). There's a picture at http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm (scroll down to the bottom left). Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station. Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle of the Broadway. It occurs to me that what is now the Hammersmith one-way system has had a trolleybus depot on its north side, bus garages on the south and west sides, the old Butterwick bus station on the east side and now the new bus station in the middle. Quite a record! -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , rob writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... I'm almost certain that the trolleybus depot was in Shepherd's Bush Road, next to the old Osram Lamp Factory (now Tesco) facing Brook Green, and backing onto more LT land (the Hammersmith & City line depot). There's a picture at http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm (scroll down to the bottom left). Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station. Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle of the Broadway. It occurs to me that what is now the Hammersmith one-way system has had a trolleybus depot on its north side, bus garages on the south and west sides, the old Butterwick bus station on the east side and now the new bus station in the middle. Quite a record! I think you may be getting confused over roads here. The current Hammersmith one-way system includes Hammersmith Broadway (leading to Hammersmith Rd) at its northern side; Butter at its eastern side; Tailgate Road/Flyover at its southern side and Queen Caroline St at its western side. The old trolley bus depot (later BEA Coach base) was located where Butter now is, I.e. on the eastern side. Thus it backed on to the District/Pick. railway lines. After it was demolished, the road was widened and the old Butter bus station was built. It too went as part of the redevelopment of the whole area and the replacement bus station built above the new shopping centre. Rob Griffith |
Old LT Garages
In message , rob
writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , rob writes Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station. Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle of the Broadway. I think you may be getting confused over roads here. Not so much getting confused as making a wrong assumption. I presumed you to mean that the trolleybus depot was at A, but you are saying that it was B: ---------------------------------------- Broadway ^ --------------- ^ -------- ------- X ^ | | District X A | | & Picc. X | | Station X | | X B | | | | C | The old trolley bus depot (later BEA Coach base) was located where Butter now is, I.e. on the eastern side. Thus it backed on to the District/Pick. railway lines. OK, but what I cannot understand is that before the one-way system was constructed, the road that is now Butterwick (marked C above) is shown on all the maps I have of the area (including the 1948 A-Z) as a narrow dead-end alleyway called Foreman Court. Now, the photo that I mentioned shows the garage in 1960, and that could well be Butterwick that the trolley is turning into. But surely the garage pre-dates the one-way system by some years, in which case how would there have been access down Foreman Court? Incidentally, I notice that the photo shows what appears to be a police lamp to the right of the trolleybus garage - is that a clue or a red herring? -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
... That photo shows the exit in Queen Caroline Street. The building is still there (just), now converted to Smollensky's restaurant. When coming off the A4 from the west it is the one brick building in a sea of glass and concrete that is almost directly in front of you as you enter the Hammersmith one-way system - although what you see is the back of the original building (read on). It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge 16th-century Butterwick House. The latter was demolished in 1836 and the District Railway eventually built its Hammersmith terminus in the grounds. Bradmore House itself survived and still looked pristine in photos of the early 20th century. Then, in an act of breathtaking vandalism, the London General Omnibus Company purchased the Georgian building in 1913, removed its innards in order to create a garage and knocked holes large enough to take double-deckers in the back (the west side) of each of its wings. These can be seen in photo 2 (below) that you found. Later most of the front (east side) was removed in order to provide access through the former front garden of the house to the new, larger garage just round the corner (photo 3). It was all renamed Riverside Garage in 1950. The "restoration" of Bradmore House as part of the Broadway Centre in the 1990s was a nice gesture - but as much because it relieves the vast and undistinguished bulk of the rest, rather than as a real restoration as such. A little of the rear (west) facade was saved - click the link at http://www.lambsbricks.com/nav/info_projects_03.htm - but most of it is totally new construction in the style of the original. Fascinating. I remember it as a Post Office and had no idea of its transport connections. Some recent (taken today) pictures of what's left of Bradmore House are he http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house1.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house2.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house3.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house4.jpg Robin |
Old LT Garages
In message , Robin Cox
writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge 16th-century Butterwick House. (snip) Fascinating. I remember it as a Post Office and had no idea of its transport connections. And nor did I when I lived in Hammersmith (just off Brook Green) nearly 30 years ago - in those days the inner part of the one-way system was a mixture of hopeless dereliction combined with distant glimpses of the 1940s (remember the tar-stained Clarendon?). I still think the Broadway Centre is a monument to much that is worst in local-authority planning - 50 years of indolence followed by a rush to create a maximum-revenue cliff-face of mediocre buildings encompassing a bus station that was too cramped from the outset. The fact that there is decent architecture only yards away (The Ark, St Paul's Church, Hammersmith Bridge, the RIBA-plaudited Surgery and much more) only serves to highlight by contrast the vacuity of the final plan for the Broadway Centre. Some recent (taken today) pictures of what's left of Bradmore House are he http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house1.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house2.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house3.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house4.jpg I don't know how you managed to get such traffic-free photos on the Hammersmith one-way - house2.jpg in particular seems to capture something of the original! -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
"Robin Cox" wrote in message ... "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... That photo shows the exit in Queen Caroline Street. The building is still there (just), now converted to Smollensky's restaurant. When coming off the A4 from the west it is the one brick building in a sea of glass and concrete that is almost directly in front of you as you enter the Hammersmith one-way system - although what you see is the back of the original building (read on). It has an extraordinary history - worth recounting for those that don't know it. The garage was originally constructed in 1736 as Bradmore House, a Georgian manor house built in the grounds of the huge 16th-century Butterwick House. The latter was demolished in 1836 and the District Railway eventually built its Hammersmith terminus in the grounds. Bradmore House itself survived and still looked pristine in photos of the early 20th century. Then, in an act of breathtaking vandalism, the London General Omnibus Company purchased the Georgian building in 1913, removed its innards in order to create a garage and knocked holes large enough to take double-deckers in the back (the west side) of each of its wings. These can be seen in photo 2 (below) that you found. Later most of the front (east side) was removed in order to provide access through the former front garden of the house to the new, larger garage just round the corner (photo 3). It was all renamed Riverside Garage in 1950. The "restoration" of Bradmore House as part of the Broadway Centre in the 1990s was a nice gesture - but as much because it relieves the vast and undistinguished bulk of the rest, rather than as a real restoration as such. A little of the rear (west) facade was saved - click the link at http://www.lambsbricks.com/nav/info_projects_03.htm - but most of it is totally new construction in the style of the original. Fascinating. I remember it as a Post Office and had no idea of its transport connections. Some recent (taken today) pictures of what's left of Bradmore House are he http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house1.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house2.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house3.jpg http://www.robincox.pwp.blueyonder.c...ore_house4.jpg Robin The old Hammersmith Post Office was a bit further along from Bradmore House - see pic 1 in Piccadilly Pilot's earlier posting - its the tall building to the left. Robert Griffith |
Old LT Garages
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , rob writes In message , rob writes Afraid it wasn't! The old trolleybus depot and adjacent buildings were located on the east side of the District/Picc. tube station. Ah, thanks. Presumably the front was facing north onto the Broadway itself? Looking again at the photo I mentioned I can see that the traffic island would be one of those that used to run down the middle of the Broadway. I think you may be getting confused over roads here. Not so much getting confused as making a wrong assumption. I presumed you to mean that the trolleybus depot was at A, but you are saying that it was B: ---------------------------------------- Broadway ^ --------------- ^ -------- ------- X ^ | | District X A | | & Picc. X | | Station X | | X B | | | | C | The old trolley bus depot (later BEA Coach base) was located where Butter now is, I.e. on the eastern side. Thus it backed on to the District/Pick. railway lines. OK, but what I cannot understand is that before the one-way system was constructed, the road that is now Butterwick (marked C above) is shown on all the maps I have of the area (including the 1948 A-Z) as a narrow dead-end alleyway called Foreman Court. Now, the photo that I mentioned shows the garage in 1960, and that could well be Butterwick that the trolley is turning into. But surely the garage pre-dates the one-way system by some years, in which case how would there have been access down Foreman Court? Incidentally, I notice that the photo shows what appears to be a police lamp to the right of the trolleybus garage - is that a clue or a red herring? -- Paul Terry Foreman Court ran between the garage and the railway. Butterwick road was created when the garage and surrounding buildings were demolished. Prior to that all traffic travelled around what is now the one-way Queen Caroline St (to the west). I have re-checked and I stand slightly corrected in so far as the garage ran roughly north/south, I.e. parallel with Foreman Court/railway and its entrance was actually from Great Church St. I think therefore that the trolley you mention is turning into that Street. Unable to establish if the original Police Stn was also in that area. Hope this makes sense. Robert Griffith |
Old LT Garages
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... In message , rob writes "Paul Terry" wrote in message ... OK, but what I cannot understand is that before the one-way system was constructed, the road that is now Butterwick (marked C above) is shown on all the maps I have of the area (including the 1948 A-Z) as a narrow dead-end alleyway called Foreman Court. Now, the photo that I mentioned shows the garage in 1960, and that could well be Butterwick that the trolley is turning into. But surely the garage pre-dates the one-way system by some years, in which case how would there have been access down Foreman Court? Foreman Court ran between the garage and the railway. That makes sense to me. Butterwick road was created when the garage and surrounding buildings were demolished. So what is the trolleybus in the photo that I referenced turning into as it leaves the (not-demolished) depot? Prior to that all traffic travelled around what is now the one-way Queen Caroline St (to the west). But how did west-bound traffic get down to Queen Caroline Street? According to maps of the era there was no access from Hammersmith Road until after passing through the Broadway and turning left after the District/Piccadilly station. I have re-checked and I stand slightly corrected in so far as the garage ran roughly north/south, I.e. parallel with Foreman Court/railway and its entrance was actually from Great Church St. I'd be happy with the N-S alignment, but if its entrance was in Great Church Street, this would make it co-terminus with the bus garage that was re-named as Riverside in 1950 specifically in order to avoid confusion with the trolleybus depot somewhere else in Hammersmith - this is the very confusion that the OP had hoped to resolve. I now don't know now if we have helped or added to that confusion! The Great Church Street depot is shown at http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMbsgrg03.jpg and it seems to me very obvious that this is totally different from the bottom-left picture of the Hammersmith Trolleybus depot shown at http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm -- Paul Terry Riverside garage (Bradmore House) as shown in the above mentioned pic, had its entrance in Great Church St and its exit in Queen Caroline St. It was (and still is) to the west of the railway lines. Hammersmith Tram Depot, later the Trolleybus depot, was also located on Great Church St but, on the east side of the railway lines. Referring to the above mentioned pic, it was roughly where the modern building on the right hand side of the pic is. Not altogether surprising the two were close to each other bearing in mind their histories - one an old omnibus garage and the other a tram depot. As to the trolleybus pics, I guess they were taken showing the vehicles turning into Great Church St. Incidentally there is an excellent book giving the histories of all LT bus garages written by J Joyce published by Ian Allan. I can recommend it! End of advert. Robert Griffith |
Old LT Garages
rob wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message ... Foreman Court ran between the garage and the railway. Butterwick road was created when the garage and surrounding buildings were demolished. Prior to that all traffic travelled around what is now the one-way Queen Caroline St (to the west). I have re-checked and I stand slightly corrected in so far as the garage ran roughly north/south, I.e. parallel with Foreman Court/railway and its entrance was actually from Great Church St. I think therefore that the trolley you mention is turning into that Street. Unable to establish if the original Police Stn was also in that area. Hope this makes sense. Here's an extract from a late 50s/early 60 A-Z of the area. http://www.piccadillypilot.co.uk/hmbus/HMBdy.jpg |
Old LT Garages
"Nick Hewitt" wrote in message om... Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 1) The original Kingston garage in Richmond Road. Where on Richmond Road was it? I remember a bus garage by the railway station in what I think is called Wood Street. It was there when we went in hunt of some of the last RFs in (LT) service which would make it mid 70s. The entrance faced the railway line and the exit faced west so buses leaving would go past the entrance! there was some additional parking (bus) in a yard between Wood Str & the railway and the garage entrance I am thinking of had some sort of restriction on it, ban on DMS class or similar (either too wide or high) which would explain why it was disposed of snip 8) Sovereign Buses had a depot somewhere in Borehamwood, in the days when it was called BTS (BT survives as a depot code for vehicles allocated to Edgware). Where was this depot in Borehamwood? As someone else replied, it was beside the railway @ Elstree & Bwd. stn, on the Left going towards London and you could just about hamg over the fence to look into the yard (access would have been to carry on down the raod past the railway station /car yard). Interestingly they appeared to garage some of the central area RMs which had dedicated route livery (route 8 was it) which of course did not operate this far out. snip 12) The original Uxbridge depot (before the present one next to the tube station) was in Denham Road. Exactly where? This was outside the GLC border and also off any bus route it serviced (which at the time I believe made it unique. On the NE (RH) side of the A4020 towards the M40 junction, it was just past the canal/River bridges, about 1st or 2nd building IIRC. Somewhere I should have a London Bus Map of the previous Ken L. vintage showing this site snip IanB |
Old LT Garages
Incidentally, I notice that the photo shows what appears to be a police
lamp to the right of the trolleybus garage - is that a clue or a red herring? -- Paul Terry I don't think that is a Police lamp - it is too high up, too small (in my estimation of the scale) and Police lamps usually had (have) a Crown on the top. Marc. |
Old LT Garages
In message , Nick
Hewitt writes I had a rough idea where Riverside was, but I needed confirmation. I didn't know, until fairly recently, that there was a trolleybus depot in Hammersmith. Bearing this in mind, can I contribute something, simply from looking at the 2 photos on http://www.trolleybus.net/resume.htm 'numbered' CR217 and GB1. Aaargh! I hadn't spotted that first photo - CR217. I think that answers the question of location. The road on the left, from which all the traffic is turning is Butterwick, which I think was driven through the area in 1959/1960. Since trolley-route 630 was replaced by buses in July 1960, this almost certainly dates the photo to early summer 1960. The road with parked cars behind the trolleybus is Great Church Lane, and the car coming in from the right is emerging from the newly-widened Talgarth Road (the Hammersmith flyover had not then been built, so the new one-way system was still carrying all of the A4 traffic in 1960). So, the original suggestion of the garage being in Great Church Lane was correct. Rob was right in saying that it was to the east of the district/piccadilly station, but not in thinking that it backed onto the railway site. It was further east - just east of Butterwick, hence the reason why it survived demolition when Butterwick was knocked through, and went on after trolleybuses ceased as a garage for the BEA coach service for a few years in the early 60s. I think it must have eventually gone in the 1970s, when the blocks to the east side of Butterwick were redeveloped. This location also explains how trolleybuses gained access before the creation of Butterwick and the one-way system - down a short length of Great Church Street going east from the top of Fulham Palace Road. It seems extraordinary to think that the entire Hammersmith one-way system must have been rewired for a very complex overhead trolley system with numerous junctions, only to have the whole lot torn down a few months later when trolleybus operations ceased. Something else comes to mind. The trolleybus depot had the garage code HB. What would the letter B have stood for? Broadway? Butterwick? I agree with Rob - Broadway seems much more likely, even though the garage wasn't on the Broadway itself. The site was probably part of the grounds of the old Butterwick House, but that had been demolished in 1836 and I don't think the name was used again until resurrected for the new road in around 1960. I'm rather glad that I didn't ask for the exact locations of Fulham, Albany Street, Rochester Mews and Kilburn depots!!! God knows what sort of arguments THAT would have started. Oh, no great arguments at all - just a fascinating debate. I totally agree with Rob that this area, where I lived in the early 70s, has gone through so much change that it is very hard to reconstruct a picture of what it was like. Its been an interesting experience to try! Incidentally, this very point is exemplified by the photos at: http://www.la21.org.uk/traffic/photo.html These show the re-development of the very area that we have been discussing, albeit too small to see details of trolleybus routes and the HB garage. -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
Well, it has to be said that I got it wrong too! I thought Riverside
was on the corner of Talgarth Rd and Butterwick. I went to Hammersmith today (saturday) to try and sort this out once and for all. Ha-ha-bloody-ha! I followed up the lead in this thread about the Smolensky's Restaurant, and found it. I did see Riverside when it was open, but that was back in July 1970 and it flashed by while I was on a 9 bus going to Mortlake. I also went and bought "LONDON TRANSPORT BUS GARAGES" by John Aldridge. It describes HB as being in Great Church Lane, but I had it as being near Linacre Court. A lot of the book confirms my original thoughts, but confuses others - so, watch this space! Nick |
Old LT Garages
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Old LT Garages
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Old LT Garages
Barry Salter wrote the following in:
On 30 Aug 2003 11:53:05 -0700, (Nick Hewitt) wrote: Well, I went to Quixley Street today (Saturday) straight after Hammersmith (see above) and although the name "Docklands Minibuses2" was plastered all over the place, it looks like they have moved. I don't think they've been there for a year or so. Sorry. BT.com gives an address of Factory Road, E16, which is near the Tate & Lyle refinery by Silvertown Station (Silverlink Metro). Pretty near me. I'll have a look next time I'm in the area. -- message by Robin May, founder of International Boyism "Would Inspector Sands please go to the Operations Room immediately." Unofficially immune to hangovers. |
Old LT Garages
In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote: It seems extraordinary to think that the entire Hammersmith one-way system must have been rewired for a very complex overhead trolley system with numerous junctions, only to have the whole lot torn down a few months later when trolleybus operations ceased. It was more than a few months. I think Butterwick was either already there when I started school in Hammersmith Road in 1957 or was built shortly afterwards. I don't think it was as late as 1959/60. They did make some overhead alterations in Butterwick before abandonment but I can't now remember the details. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Old LT Garages
In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes In article , (Paul Terry) wrote: It seems extraordinary to think that the entire Hammersmith one-way system must have been rewired for a very complex overhead trolley system with numerous junctions, only to have the whole lot torn down a few months later when trolleybus operations ceased. It was more than a few months. I think Butterwick was either already there when I started school in Hammersmith Road in 1957 or was built shortly afterwards. I don't think it was as late as 1959/60. They did make some overhead alterations in Butterwick before abandonment but I can't now remember the details. Yes, trolleybuses first started using Butterwick on 13 July 1958 (I have at last managed to lay my hands on some decent reference material). However, according to Taylor's London Trolleybus Routes, "Between 1958 and 1960 the routes underwent continual wiring alterations at Hammersmith due to the construction of Hammersmith flyover". The latter was still being built in 1960, of course, and photos from that year show that much of the south side of the one-way system was far from complete, even though open for traffic. -- Paul Terry |
Old LT Garages
IanB wrote:
"Nick Hewitt" wrote in message Hi people. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. I am trying to track down a number of past & present ex-LT bus garages. They are :- 1) The original Kingston garage in Richmond Road. Where on Richmond Road was it? I remember a bus garage by the railway station in what I think is called Wood Street. It was there when we went in hunt of some of the last RFs in (LT) service which would make it mid 70s. The entrance faced the railway line and the exit faced west so buses leaving would go past the entrance! there was some additional parking (bus) in a yard between Wood Str & the railway and the garage entrance I am thinking of had some sort of restriction on it, ban on DMS class or similar (either too wide or high) which would explain why it was disposed of There may possibly have been an earlier garage, but in the 60s and 70s Kingston Garage had a wide exit on Clarence St and a narrow entrance on what seems to be Cromwell Road. Unusually, passengers could board buses within the bus garage. There was also a bus terminus in front (south) of the station, mainly for green buses, and I think some sort of overflow bus park by the railway east of the station - where the present bus station is. What you've forgotten is that in those days Clarence St was one way southbound, and Wood Street one way eastbound. Buses reached the garage from the west or north and departed south. Clarence St was very busy even then, and I've got film somewhere of an RF taking a very long time to push out into the traffic. Colin McKenzie |
Greetings from a newbie from West Sussex :)
Arrived at this thread through Google search and hope this post is in topic We have just acquired a Smith's Sectric Art Deco design clock that is inscribed:- PRESENTED TO L.W. BOYCE DEPOT ENGINEER BY HACKNEY T. BUS, R.S. STAFF AS A TOKEN OF APPRECIATION MAY 1949 Wonder if anyone who has posted here already would be able to explain more about the role of Depot Engineer and the qualifications required. What would his duties have been and what would be the staffing of the depot? Was this a hands on job or a professional administrative post. Would it have been a respected post and a career aspiration or target? The clock is in very good condition other than it requires a replacement motor or rewinding (or insertion of new quartz unit). We are wondering if it might be better appreciated by a museum or collector rather than staying with us merely to keep time! |
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