How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

Anglia Railways ran a train from the GEML (can't remember where) to
Reading or something, ISTR; that went via the NLL.

*gogols*

London Crosslink, that was it. Chelmsford (or Ipswich, according to some
sources) to Basingstoke, apparently; i would have assumed it was
Basingstoke via Reading, but from the sound of this (from a press
release):

It went via Feltham and Staines. How? I've turned up mentions of Richmond,
too; can you come down the NLL into Richmond and carry onto the Windsor
lines?


I think it ran directly from South Acton to Brentford, via Kew East and Old
Kew Junctions (bypassing west of Kew Bridge in other words). It would have
been the only passenger service over what is normally considered a freight
only line.

Joe Brown's London rail atlas reckons the connection at Richmond has been
lifted since 1972...

Paul S

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

In message , at
17:43:35 on Thu, 21 Feb 2008, Tom Anderson
remarked:
Anglia Railways ran a train from the GEML (can't remember where) to
Reading or something, ISTR; that went via the NLL.

Yes, but that was later, and didn't go via Birmingham, Harwich or even
Edinburgh!!

It failed, imho, because it was too slow - compared to travelling via
Liverpool St and Waterloo [as you say later it was Basingstoke, not
Reading].
--
Roland Perry

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

"Tom Anderson" wrote in message
h.li...

Anglia Railways ran a train from the GEML (can't remember where) to
Reading or something, ISTR; that went via the NLL.

*gogols*

London Crosslink, that was it. Chelmsford (or Ipswich, according to
some sources) to Basingstoke, apparently; i would have assumed it was
Basingstoke via Reading, but from the sound of this (from a press
release):

It went via Feltham and Staines. How? I've turned up mentions of
Richmond, too; can you come down the NLL into Richmond and carry onto
the Windsor lines?


I think it ran directly from South Acton to Brentford, via Kew East
and Old Kew Junctions (bypassing west of Kew Bridge in other words).
It would have been the only passenger service over what is normally
considered a freight only line.

Joe Brown's London rail atlas reckons the connection at Richmond has
been lifted since 1972...

There is still a connection between Platform 3 at Richmond and the Up
Windsor line however I think it is only for ECS movements.

Peter Smyth

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Roland Perry" wrote

Edinburgh to Harwich features in the index, and Table 18, of my 1974/5
timetable.

Although there are no especially long distance through trains, but
connections to Edinburgh are shown. The route is via Ely and
Peterborough.

There had for many years been an overnight through train from Colchester to
Glasgow Queen Street via Peterborough and the ECML.

However, the history of the Harwich to Glasgow and Edinburgh train is more
recent (and I can't put dates on it without delving into the archive). When
BR decided to cease using the Settle & Carlisle for through trains from
Nottingham to Scotland the Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh trains were
altered to start back from Nottingham. By then the Harwich to Manchester had
been diverted away from its historic route via Lincoln and Retford to run
via Peterborough, Grantham and Nottingham, and was plugged into the
Nottingham and Manchester to Scotland pattern. Presumably Nottingham and
Sheffield to Scotland patronage did not live up to expectations (it was
after all quicker to go via the ECML) so the through trains were dropped.
However, there was presumably some residual patronage between Harwich,
Birmingham and Manchester; the NLL was getting AC electrification for
freight, so it was decided to keep the Harwich to Glasgow and Edinburgh
through train, but run it via the NLL and Birmingham, as part of the
Cross-Country Birmingham to Scotland service pattern. It lasted, IIRC, for a
few years. At least in the 1987-88 timetable it had no passenger stop in
Greater London, running without an intermediate stop between Shenfield and
Watford Junction.

Peter

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

Lüko Willms wrote:
Am Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:47:31 UTC, schrieb
(Neil Williams) auf uk.railway :

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:47:58 +0100, "L=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=ko Willms"
wrote:

No, check it out in Berlin or Hamburg or Munich ... that can be very
costly.

Doesn't stop a lot of people doing it.

True, today I witnessed a young women being caught, and who was
scared into giving here real address when the controllers told here
that the cops might come to her place if the address she had given
were wrong.

But if the address she gave was wrong, how would they find her again?


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 21 Feb, 19:43, Arthur Figgis wrote:
Lüko Willms wrote:
Am Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:47:31 UTC, schrieb
(Neil Williams) auf uk.railway :

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:47:58 +0100, "L=?ISO-8859-1?B?/A==?=ko Willms"
wrote:

No, check it out in Berlin or Hamburg or Munich ... that can be very
costly.

Doesn't stop a lot of people doing it.

True, today I witnessed a young women being caught, and who was
scared into giving here real address when the controllers told here
that the cops might come to her place if the address she had given
were wrong.

But if the address she gave was wrong, how would they find her again?



Impossible - in Germany, one does not give ze wrong address to ze
authorities...

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 15:57:14 on Thu, 21
Feb 2008, John Rowland remarked:
On 21 Feb, 09:13, Martin Edwards wrote:
At one time there was a train from Scotland to Harwich which used
the North London Line but did not stop at a London terminus. They
cancelled it because too many people used it.

Err, cite?

[happy to believe that there was a train and that it was cancelled]

Sorry, I really can't remember, but I took it from Birmingham to
Chelmsford several times. There was a great view of the "Scrubs".

I believe this is the train which was discussed on That's Life. BR wanted
to
get rid of it, but they weren't allowed to, because too many people used
it.
So they omitted it from all public timetables for a few years, but carried
on running it. When this caused usage to plummet, they were then allowed to
get rid of it. This would be approx 1980.

Edinburgh to Harwich features in the index, and Table 18, of my 1974/5
timetable.

Although there are no especially long distance through trains, but
connections to Edinburgh are shown. The route is via Ely and Peterborough.

Anglia Railways ran a train from the GEML (can't remember where) to
Reading or something, ISTR; that went via the NLL.

*gogols*

London Crosslink, that was it. Chelmsford (or Ipswich, according to some
sources) to Basingstoke, apparently; i would have assumed it was
Basingstoke via Reading, but from the sound of this (from a press
release):

(press release and other stuff snipped)

Anyway, it didn't do well. It wasn't well advertised, and it was also
rather slow, due to the congestion and all that - it interacted with the
GEML, the NLL and the Windsor lines, so it must have been a nightmare to
run reliably.

Still, being able to catch a direct train from High & I to Feltham would
have been handy!


Day release?

I never used the Crossrail service at the time, but I've since read
with great interest many threads concerning it from the archives of
utl and uk.railway.

In London it stopped at Stratford, High & I, Camden Road, West
Hampstead, Brentford and Feltham (though Brentford was a later
addition, and I'm not sure all trains stopped there). By all accounts
a very erratic timetable, certainly not a clock-face one - perhaps
best summed up as 'every two hours or so', trains that took an age to
get around the NLL going at a snail's pace because they were stuck
behind the frequent Silverlink stopping services...

However (and I'm really pleased because I looked for this before and
failed to find it) the Crossrail service came as a pleasant surprise
to a few NLL commuters travelling between West Hampstead, Highbury and
Stratford - as 'underachiever' said at the time...

"A seat. A buffet! fantastic."

Indeed - however good the new London Overground trains might be, I
don't think they can top that!

That's from a July 2002 post on the utl/uk.railway thread about the
withdrawal of Crosslink, and can be read he
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....4c25e0859ec927


Though thinking of cross-London journeys one can still find a buffet
on the Arriva CrossCountry services between East Croydon and
Kensington Olympia, though there's only something like two a day each
way and they stop running this coming December. Perhaps I should
endeavour to take one for that journey and get a coffee on board!

And - whilst it's not quite the same thing, well not really the same
thing at all really - all this talk of buffets on London trains
reminds me of a recent-ish journey I made with a friend on a late
night SLL train back from town to mystery location x in south London -
the stock was one of the old Brighton Express units that had been
swankyfied by Connex and subsequently downgraded to working services
through suburbia, and we sat on the transverse seats in the distinctly
closed and, for reasons unknown, completely unlit buffet area with our
own round table in front of us looking out in the darkness northwards
across the illuminated skyline of the London night... 'twas magical, I
tell thee!

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On Feb 19, 4:27*pm, Mizter T wrote:
Adrian wrote:
On Feb 19, 2:25pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Feb, 21:10, Adrian Auer-Hudson
wrote:

On Feb 19, 9:20 am, Mizter T wrote:

On 19 Feb, 16:38, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"John B" wrote

Euston is the only sensible destination for a north/south HSL, in
simple geography and engineering terms. A link to HS1 to allow NoL
trains (which might be viable at 350km/h) would be sensible. Maybe a
travelator to KXSP...

Exactly. A branch from Heathrow to the HSL (in the Denham area, if the
Chiltern corridor is used) would make sense (as suggested by Greengauge),
but running the HSL from Euston/St Pancras to Birmingham via Heathrow is
likely to be too slow, and certain to be too expensive, to be worthwhile.

Peter

Additionally, if space is tight at Euston then the whole station could
be rebuilt with longer platforms at the current level stretching to
buffer stops just north of Euston Road (or at least north of the
course of the Met & Circle lines) and with the station concourse being
on the next level up above the platforms. A mighty expensive project
of course, plus the main Underground concourse might well be in the
way of all this subsurface shenanigans, but that's not an insuperable
problem.

For local distribution of arrivals Euston Square station needs to be
moved. Or, Euston Square should be linked to the mainline and tube
stations by a travelator.

Adrian

Urban groups added for wider readership.

Well, if anyone on utl or misc.transport.urban-transit is reading this
then I they won't be aware of the context - which basically came from
a pretty pie-in-the-sky discussion of where a London terminus/through
station for a new British north-south high speed line would be
located. Euston appears to be the most realistic suggestion, if a new
HSL ever actually got built (and that is a very big if!). However in a
further reply to my post Peter Masson pointed out that the platforms
at Euston station as they stand could likely handle any new long
trains just fine, so my suggestion that Euston might have to be
completely rebuilt (never really intended to be that serious) would in
fact not even have to enter onto the drawing board.

Points taken.

I didn't mean to be quite as harsh as I came across! I'm just a little
wary of being labelled as a fantasist - nothing wrong with flights of
fancy per se on usenet of course, I just like to ensure they get
appropriately flagged up!

All that said, I'm guessing that the current 60's modernist station
buildings at Euston won't last forever - indeed I would make the
(perhaps quite wrong) assumption that it wasn't aren't built to last
in quite the manner that St Pancras or Paddington was. And of course a
significant part of the logic behind the 'new' Euston of the 60's was
that it should handle parcels traffic effortlessly, hence the
expansive parcels deck high above the platforms. The parcels handling
function of Euston is now totally dead (at least I'm pretty sure it
is!).

It is this large parcels deck, floating above the platforms, that made
me think a new two level passenger railway station at Euston would be
possible - the site would appear to lend itself to such a proposition.



Which would be just as well really, as any new high speed line has
less and less chance of ever even being considered the more
ostentatious plans for it get.

Sort of: Part of the attraction of HS1 was/is its breadth of vision.
Local upgrades form a small part of the overall budget. *But I agree
that rebuilding Euston would be a tall order.

I was really thinking about whether the platforms would be long enough
for a new breed of high speed trains - and the north-south high speed
line proposition has the HS2 moniker these days, as HS1 is already
with us in the form of the CTRL.



However linking up Euston Square with the rest of Euston might not be
a bad ting to aim for in the long run, as has been discussed here many
times before - and in the unlikely event that a high speed line into
Euston ever got the go ahead then it should definitely be on the
cards. In the meantime, passengers transferring between these stations
can enjoy the fresh air of the Euston Road!

Oh yes, all that fresh CO2. *:-)

In terms of your lungs I think the extra CO2 is the least of your
worries! There's some tasty pollutants out there, breath in deep!



The stations on the northern half of the circle may have made sense in
the 1860s. *They are inconvenient today. *And, said side of the Circle
misses interchange possibilities at almost every opportunity. *The
biggest omission IMHO is not having a station in front of Euston. *It
would be an expensive mistake to rectify.

Adrian

Apart from at Euston and Marylebone I don't really see what's missing
with regards to interchange opportunities on the northern (Met) half
of the circle. Euston is a big omission, I'll grant you that,
Marylebone less so. The platforms at Euston Square stretch from the
entrance eastwards - i.e. towards Euston, so there have been various
proposals mooted for that new passageways are built at the east end of
the platforms to lead directly into the Euston station Underground
complex. However even if the platforms weren't moved this would, as
you say, be a mighty expensive endeavour. Perhaps this might have to
wait until Euston gets rebuilt, if indeed that ever does happen as
such.

Starting at Paddington:

Neither the Circle nor Metropolitan platforms offer easy interchange
with the Bakerloo.

Edgware Road. The Bakerloo and Circle stations are separate. This
probably has zero impact on interchange. But, had the Bakerloo line
used the Circle line station there would have been no need for extra
staff. This is clearly not worth rectifying. It would take several
centuries of employee wages to cover the cost of a rebuild.

Marylebone. Many is the time I have arrived at Marylebone and then
walked to Baker Street for the Circle Line. Watkin's grip was not
tight enough. Baker Street should have been rebuilt in order to
accommodate the GC ML circa 1899!

Regents Park/Great Portland Street. Same issue as Edgware Road. TfL
pays to staff two stations.

Gower Street. Poor interchange with Euston Square.

Euston. Poor Interchange with Euston Square.

None of the above is earth shattering. It is mildly inconvenient.


Adrian

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 09:37:02 +0100, "Lüko Willms"
wrote:

Am Thu, 21 Feb 2008 00:01:28 UTC, schrieb Charles Ellson
auf uk.railway :

It was going to do so - the NoL Eurostar. It didn't happen because it
wouldn't have been economic without being able to also carry
Scotland-London and London-France passengers on the same trains.

If it never ran then there was no way of knowing what would actually
happen. Many new services which really have run have enjoyed better
than forecast figures.

It was the opinion of the Arthur D. Little report "Review of
regional Eurostar services: summary report"
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/europe/reviewofregionaleurostarserv3325

especially section 4 in the chapter linked below:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/europe/reviewofregionaleurostarserv3325?page=11#a1014


You can get whatever opinion you pay for.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 12:48:43 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

And - whilst it's not quite the same thing, well not really the same
thing at all really - all this talk of buffets on London trains
reminds me of a recent-ish journey I made with a friend on a late
night SLL train back from town to mystery location x in south London -
the stock was one of the old Brighton Express units that had been
swankyfied by Connex and subsequently downgraded to working services
through suburbia, and we sat on the transverse seats in the distinctly
closed and, for reasons unknown, completely unlit buffet area with our
own round table in front of us looking out in the darkness northwards
across the illuminated skyline of the London night... 'twas magical, I
tell thee!

Train travel by night is far more pleasant in the dark. It's one of
the reasons I mourn the passing of the WCML Mk2s and Mk3s, where there
would often be a coach with failed lighting which was able to provide
me with a relaxing darkened journey with a good view out. The very
ends of the vehicles in Pendolinos are better than nothing, but this
is one area where the road coach very clearly wins.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

London Crosslink, that was it. Chelmsford (or Ipswich, according to
some sources) to Basingstoke, apparently; i would have assumed it was
Basingstoke via Reading, but from the sound of this (from a press
release):

It went via Feltham and Staines. How? I've turned up mentions of
Richmond, too; can you come down the NLL into Richmond and carry onto
the Windsor lines?

I feel so *old* hearing people talking about this lost service the way they
might talk about the Outer Circle. To me it seems like only yesterday the
service was introduced!

a.. In December 1999, the Shadow Strategic Rail Authority agreed to pay
approximately £2.8 million subsidy over the first three years of service.
The two-hourly Monday to Saturday service would start in May 2000, running
between Chelmsford or Colchester and Basingstoke via Stratford, Highbury &
Islington, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction, Feltham, Staines, Woking and
Farnborough. Anglia Railways stated "If the trains are popular the plan for
the future would be to run an hourly service with all trains starting from
Norwich/Ipswich at the East Anglia end and running through to Southampton at
the southern end"
a.. In May 2000, the service started operation, although Willesden Junction
was not served
a.. From May 2001, weekend trains served Camden Road, and Sunday trains and
certain weekday trains served Brentford

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

Am Thu, 21 Feb 2008 19:43:56 UTC, schrieb Arthur Figgis
auf uk.railway :

gripper against fare dodger:

True, today I witnessed a young women being caught, and who was
scared into giving here real address when the controllers told here
that the cops might come to her place if the address she had given
were wrong.

But if the address she gave was wrong, how would they find her again?

She panicked ... I did overhear only parts of the conversation, and
did not dare to intervene. I believe to have understood that their had
another address of her, which she identified as an old one, from where
the family had moved away. The grippers had been talking on the phone,
probably verifying name and address with the official register (in
Germany, in old authoritarian Prussian tradition, there is
"Meldepflicht", i.e. each and every person has to register with the
local community).


Cheers,
L.W.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:59:22 +0000, Neil Williams wrote

Train travel by night is far more pleasant in the dark. It's one of
the reasons I mourn the passing of the WCML Mk2s and Mk3s, where there
would often be a coach with failed lighting which was able to provide
me with a relaxing darkened journey with a good view out.

Mark 1 compartments with the 'bight/dim' switch, corridor blinds and
removable tungsten lightbulbs were the best for long distance nighttime
travel

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 21 Feb, 20:48, Mizter T wrote:

I never used the Crossrail service at the time, but I've since read
with great interest many threads concerning it from the archives of
utl and uk.railway.

In London it stopped at Stratford, High & I, Camden Road, West
Hampstead, Brentford and Feltham (though Brentford was a later
addition, and I'm not sure all trains stopped there).

Some trains also stopped at Romford.

Jonn

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 03:33, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

London Crosslink, that was it. Chelmsford (or Ipswich, according to
some sources) to Basingstoke, apparently; i would have assumed it was
Basingstoke via Reading, but from the sound of this (from a press
release):

It went via Feltham and Staines. How? I've turned up mentions of
Richmond, too; can you come down the NLL into Richmond and carry onto
the Windsor lines?

I feel so *old* hearing people talking about this lost service the way they
might talk about the Outer Circle. To me it seems like only yesterday the
service was introduced!


Anglia Crosslink... it's the stuff of legends now.



a.. In December 1999, the Shadow Strategic Rail Authority agreed to pay
approximately £2.8 million subsidy over the first three years of service..
The two-hourly Monday to Saturday service would start in May 2000, running
between Chelmsford or Colchester and Basingstoke via Stratford, Highbury &
Islington, West Hampstead, Willesden Junction, Feltham, Staines, Woking and
Farnborough. Anglia Railways stated "If the trains are popular the plan for
the future would be to run an hourly service with all trains starting from
Norwich/Ipswich at the East Anglia end and running through to Southampton at
the southern end"
a.. In May 2000, the service started operation, although Willesden Junction
was not served
a.. From May 2001, weekend trains served Camden Road, and Sunday trains and
certain weekday trains served Brentford


Thanks for outlining the service pattern, I couldn't quite discern it
from a quick search through past usenet threads. I presume that May
2001 is the date when the service started operating on a sunday too?
The weekend Camden Road stop was evidently designed for those heading
to the markets and other delights of Camden town.

It does sounds like it had some potential. However I think the planned
and much needed increase in frequency of NLL services puts paid to any
hope of running similar Crosslink-style trains in the future, which is
fair enough really - there is a blindingly obvious demand for more
capacity on the NLL, and no such blindingly obvious demand for direct
Staines to Basingstoke trains.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

In article ,
Neil Williams wrote:
On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:01:31 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

Why should there be ? If the train is providing a Scotland (or bits of
England between SCT and London)-France service then London is merely
an intermediate stop which is already served by other trains for
shorter journeys along the same way. The mentality that insists
"everything must stop in London" is one of the impediments to a
properly-organised transport system which does not have parallels in
most other countries.

Hardly. More like, if London were omitted any Scotland-France service
would be hopelessly uneconomic. That's largely what killed NoL E*.

Except the idea includes Stratford, which is quite handy for E14 - certainly
more so than StP. And Bank - Stratford Regional is 11 minutes (according
to the TfL journey planner) while Bank - KXStP is 9 on the Northern,
so it's hardly 'out in the sticks'.

--
Shenanigans! Shenanigans! Best of 3!
-- Flash

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 11:34, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
Neil Williams wrote:

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:01:31 +0000, Charles Ellson
wrote:

Why should there be ? If the train is providing a Scotland (or bits of
England between SCT and London)-France service then London is merely
an intermediate stop which is already served by other trains for
shorter journeys along the same way. The mentality that insists
"everything must stop in London" is one of the impediments to a
properly-organised transport system which does not have parallels in
most other countries.

Hardly. More like, if London were omitted any Scotland-France service
would be hopelessly uneconomic. That's largely what killed NoL E*.

Except the idea includes Stratford, which is quite handy for E14 - certainly
more so than StP. And Bank - Stratford Regional is 11 minutes (according
to the TfL journey planner) while Bank - KXStP is 9 on the Northern,
so it's hardly 'out in the sticks'.



One thing to bear in mind is that when the fast CTRL-DS 'bullet
trains' (aka Javelin) start running between St. P and Kent they will
all stop at Stratford International, and the journey will take less
than 9 minutes. Indeed this has lead to some speculation that Eurostar
trains won't actually ever stop at Stratford, with passengers expected
to double-back on the CTRL-DS to St. Pancras to board their Eurostar
trains. I now think that analysis is wrong and Eurostar trains will
stop there, given the importance of Canary Wharf and other areas in
the Docklands.

But the coming of CTRL-DS and also of Crossrail to Stratford does just
emphasise your point - through trains from points north on a new HS2
could join HS1 (aka CTRL) at or near Stratford and then stop there as
their London stop. I've no idea how feasible the idea of creating a
junction somewhere on HS1/CTRL west of Stratford International for the
new HS2 line to feed into it would be though!

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

But the coming of CTRL-DS and also of Crossrail to Stratford does just
emphasise your point - through trains from points north on a new HS2
could join HS1 (aka CTRL) at or near Stratford and then stop there as
their London stop. I've no idea how feasible the idea of creating a
junction somewhere on HS1/CTRL west of Stratford International for the
new HS2 line to feed into it would be though!

There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...

Paul S

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 13:11, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote in message

...

But the coming of CTRL-DS and also of Crossrail to Stratford does just
emphasise your point - through trains from points north on a new HS2
could join HS1 (aka CTRL) at or near Stratford and then stop there as
their London stop. I've no idea how feasible the idea of creating a
junction somewhere on HS1/CTRL west of Stratford International for the
new HS2 line to feed into it would be though!

There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...


Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

Unless of course the traffic generated from Stratford International
was so great that it could fill a whole continent-bound train up.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 14:36, Mizter T wrote:
There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

Not sure whether the logic there was to avoid taking up paths into
King's Cross, or whether it was just about deterring 'normal'
passengers from taking that train instead of the full-price ones.

Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in
Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my
house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
On 22 Feb, 13:11, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)


I'm thinking of a situation where Eurostar are claiming that that there
isn't any space in 'their' terminus, due to their turnround requirements.
Because the Stratford platforms are on loops, another operator could stop
there and platforming at St Pancras wouldn't be an issue.

I recall similar arguments between GNER and NR re open access to Kings
Cross...

Paul S

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"John B" wrote in message
...
On 22 Feb, 14:36, Mizter T wrote:
There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

Not sure whether the logic there was to avoid taking up paths into
King's Cross, or whether it was just about deterring 'normal'
passengers from taking that train instead of the full-price ones.

Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in
Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my
house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later...


'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...

Paul S

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 14:58, John B wrote:
On 22 Feb, 14:36, Mizter T wrote:

There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

Not sure whether the logic there was to avoid taking up paths into
King's Cross, or whether it was just about deterring 'normal'
passengers from taking that train instead of the full-price ones.


Never heard of anything like that, it's very interesting. I'm now
wondering whether there were ever any other similar examples,
excluding times when engineering works or something else going wrong
necessitated it (like the recent occasions when GNER terminated at FP
- I hear it was mayhem, and I guess it was similarly chaotic at Harrow
& Wealdstone when Virgin had to stop/start short there).


Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in
Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my
house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later...


Pull the cord, pull the cord... Unless you were somewhat exhausted
after she'd been pulling the cord...

I suspect I'm going to get the full £1000 fine and a custodial
sentence for wilful and misleading misuse of the (word) cord...

"Send him down"...

(I'm going to stop right now!)

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 15:10, "Paul Scott" wrote:
"John B" wrote in message

...





On 22 Feb, 14:36, Mizter T wrote:
There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for
incoming trains from the mainland.

A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport
IYSWIM...

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

Not sure whether the logic there was to avoid taking up paths into
King's Cross, or whether it was just about deterring 'normal'
passengers from taking that train instead of the full-price ones.

Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in
Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my
house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later...

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...


I don't think Mr Band's old enough for it to have been that, is he?

Jonn

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 15:24, wrote:
BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...

I don't think Mr Band's old enough for it to have been that, is he?

That *is* the one I meant - indeed, it stopped running a long time
before I ever went anywhere near Finsbury Park (although I thought it
survived into the 80s - ah well, only out by 20 years or so...)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

John B wrote:

On 22 Feb, 15:24, wrote:
BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe
Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park.

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...

I don't think Mr Band's old enough for it to have been that, is he?

That *is* the one I meant - indeed, it stopped running a long time
before I ever went anywhere near Finsbury Park (although I thought it
survived into the 80s - ah well, only out by 20 years or so...)


Ah. I misread your first comment. Apologies...

Jonn

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 15:06, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

On 22 Feb, 13:11, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick
airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport.

Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus
though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when
they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only
they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras?
(Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by
then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!)

I'm thinking of a situation where Eurostar are claiming that that there
isn't any space in 'their' terminus, due to their turnround requirements.
Because the Stratford platforms are on loops, another operator could stop
there and platforming at St Pancras wouldn't be an issue.

I recall similar arguments between GNER and NR re open access to Kings
Cross...


But by the looks of things sooner or later Eurostar isn't going to be
the owner of and hence be in charge of St Pancras station. It does of
course depend on how LCR is split up - will St Pancras be vested in
the owner of HS1/CTRL, or with Eurostar UK Ltd (EUKL)?

There are arguments both ways - the train operator (EUKL) being in
charge makes some sense, with regards to the fact that they are the
ones who are using it every day, unless of course there are other new
operators on the scene when having an impartial station owner starts
to make a lot more sense.

Indeed how LCR is broken up could be taken as an indicator as to how
likely TPTB consider a new international operator is to come on to the
scene. Likewise, depending on how LCR is broken up, it could provide
the necessary incentive for a new operator, or indeed provide enough
of an obstacle so as to prevent a new operator considering it
worthwhile.

I think the argument for vesting the stations in the ownership of the
HS1/CTRL company is stronger, and of course a lot less messy, than the
counter arrangement. EUKL presence at St Pancras, along with any
potential future operators, would thus be like an airline at an
airport terminal.

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...


All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

As usual then! - saves a few people doing their real work g.

Paul

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

John Rowland wrote:
Martin Edwards wrote:
John B wrote:
On 21 Feb, 09:13, Martin Edwards wrote:
At one time there was a train from Scotland to Harwich which used
the North London Line but did not stop at a London terminus. They
cancelled it because too many people used it.
Err, cite?

[happy to believe that there was a train and that it was cancelled]
Sorry, I really can't remember, but I took it from Birmingham to
Chelmsford several times. There was a great view of the "Scrubs".

I believe this is the train which was discussed on That's Life. BR wanted to
get rid of it, but they weren't allowed to, because too many people used it.
So they omitted it from all public timetables for a few years, but carried
on running it. When this caused usage to plummet, they were then allowed to
get rid of it. This would be approx 1980.


Yes that's it exactly. My parents saw the programme. Note that this
was just when Friedmanism was beginning to bite.

--
Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it
has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management
decisions. -From “Rollerball”

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 16:23, "Paul Scott" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

As usual then! - saves a few people doing their real work g.

Paul

;)

Though some people get paid a pretty penny to ponder such issues.
However I'm sure it's all a little bit more staid that out jolly
newsgroup discussions!

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 15:54, Mizter T wrote:
But by the looks of things sooner or later Eurostar isn't going to be
the owner of and hence be in charge of St Pancras station. It does of
course depend on how LCR is split up - will St Pancras be vested in
the owner of HS1/CTRL, or with Eurostar UK Ltd (EUKL)?

St Pancras is managed by Network Rail:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4394.aspx

....and will be vested in the owner of HS1:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2910648.ece

There are arguments both ways - the train operator (EUKL) being in
charge makes some sense, with regards to the fact that they are the
ones who are using it every day, unless of course there are other new
operators on the scene when having an impartial station owner starts
to make a lot more sense.

Except that there are three (soon four) train operators in St Pancras,
with EUKL running the fewest services. Indeed, the fact that LCR was
allowed to spec the station in the first place probably explains why
the signing and walking routes for domestic rail are currently so
****poor...

Indeed how LCR is broken up could be taken as an indicator as to how
likely TPTB consider a new international operator is to come on to the
scene. Likewise, depending on how LCR is broken up, it could provide
the necessary incentive for a new operator, or indeed provide enough
of an obstacle so as to prevent a new operator considering it
worthwhile.

Will be interesting to see. Given the lack of cheap multibillion loans
for private equity buyouts (which is how the likes of Macquarie have
profited from similar previous acquisitions), I'd not be at all
surprisied to see Network Rail emerging as the successful bidder for
HS1.

I think the argument for vesting the stations in the ownership of the
HS1/CTRL company is stronger, and of course a lot less messy, than the
counter arrangement. EUKL presence at St Pancras, along with any
potential future operators, would thus be like an airline at an
airport terminal.

....or a TOC at a major station.

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

Angels, pins, etc.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 16:28, Martin Edwards wrote:
I believe this is the train which was discussed on That's Life. BR wanted to
get rid of it, but they weren't allowed to, because too many people used it.
So they omitted it from all public timetables for a few years, but carried
on running it. When this caused usage to plummet, they were then allowed to
get rid of it. This would be approx 1980.

Yes that's it exactly. My parents saw the programme. Note that this
was just when Friedmanism was beginning to bite.

Was there any indication given of /why/ BR wanted to get rid of such a
popular service? Or was it just about too popular to shut, but nowhere
near popular enough to make any money...?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

Am Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:54:11 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

They might think to have a chance to buy EUKL when it is put up for
sale, or at least a controlling majority. Maybe by merging with
National Express...


Cheers,
L.W.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the
late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully seated
sleeper...

IIRC the Highwayman was a day train - though the routeing was as you state.
It ran, again IIRC, in the early 1970s, and although it was something of a
dead-end in development of rail travel it proved the need for lower fares
for leisure travellers. Before then long distance tickets were basically
limited to Ordinary Singles and Returns, though there had for many years
been Mid-Week Holiday Returns (Summer only, out and back on Tuesdays,
Wednesdays and Thursdays, return within one omonth of outward journey, but
not in teh same week). After the Highwayman, Economy and 17-day Returns were
developed, which were the forerunners of Savers and Supersavers.
As for overnight cheap trains you may have been thinking of Nightriders
which ran, IIRC, in the 1980s between Scotland and London. At one stage the
Nightrider seated portion of the overnight Aberdeen to London train
wasmarketed by and liveried for Stagecoach, this time as the forerunner of
rail privatisation.

Peter

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Paul Scott" wrote

'The Highwayman' - left Newcastle very late pm, took the coastal route
through Sunderland, arrived FP about 0600. Travelled on it once in the
late
60s - don't think it ran for long though, it was a bit like a fully
seated
sleeper...

IIRC the Highwayman was a day train - though the routeing was as you
state.
It ran, again IIRC, in the early 1970s, and although it was something of a
dead-end in development of rail travel it proved the need for lower fares
for leisure travellers. Before then long distance tickets were basically
limited to Ordinary Singles and Returns, though there had for many years
been Mid-Week Holiday Returns (Summer only, out and back on Tuesdays,
Wednesdays and Thursdays, return within one omonth of outward journey, but
not in teh same week). After the Highwayman, Economy and 17-day Returns
were
developed, which were the forerunners of Savers and Supersavers.
As for overnight cheap trains you may have been thinking of Nightriders
which ran, IIRC, in the 1980s between Scotland and London. At one stage
the
Nightrider seated portion of the overnight Aberdeen to London train
wasmarketed by and liveried for Stagecoach, this time as the forerunner of
rail privatisation.


No this was definitely late 60s, I can date it to my father not having a car
for a few years, and even if the name is wrong, it was definitely an arrival
in FP at the crack of dawn. I was about 12 or 13 at the time.

Paul

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

John B wrote:

On 22 Feb, 15:54, Mizter T wrote:
But by the looks of things sooner or later Eurostar isn't going to be
the owner of and hence be in charge of St Pancras station. It does of
course depend on how LCR is split up - will St Pancras be vested in
the owner of HS1/CTRL, or with Eurostar UK Ltd (EUKL)?

St Pancras is managed by Network Rail:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/4394.aspx


But just because they're contracted to run it means nothing - it's
ownership that counts.


...and will be vested in the owner of HS1:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle2910648.ece


OK - that seems pretty definitive!


There are arguments both ways - the train operator (EUKL) being in
charge makes some sense, with regards to the fact that they are the
ones who are using it every day, unless of course there are other new
operators on the scene when having an impartial station owner starts
to make a lot more sense.

Except that there are three (soon four) train operators in St Pancras,
with EUKL running the fewest services. Indeed, the fact that LCR was
allowed to spec the station in the first place probably explains why
the signing and walking routes for domestic rail are currently so
****poor...


But I was really thinking about the international part of the station
- as things stand, there's a segregated part of the station solely for
international services, and that doesn't look like it'll change soon.
My thinking was whether EUKL was going to control that part (i.e. by
owning it).


Indeed how LCR is broken up could be taken as an indicator as to how
likely TPTB consider a new international operator is to come on to the
scene. Likewise, depending on how LCR is broken up, it could provide
the necessary incentive for a new operator, or indeed provide enough
of an obstacle so as to prevent a new operator considering it
worthwhile.

Will be interesting to see. Given the lack of cheap multibillion loans
for private equity buyouts (which is how the likes of Macquarie have
profited from similar previous acquisitions), I'd not be at all
surprisied to see Network Rail emerging as the successful bidder for
HS1.


Very good point about the buyout and the current climate. However
similar question marks would surround an attempted purchase by Network
Rail - NR has big debts and might well be unhappy incurring any more,
they might have problems raising money for any such purchase, they
might be under government pressure not to get involved etc etc.

Just because Network Rail owning HS1 is the neatest solution in the
minds of rail enthusiasts doesn't mean it is going to happen. The
government may well want more of a payback on HS1 than Network Rail
can offer.


I think the argument for vesting the stations in the ownership of the
HS1/CTRL company is stronger, and of course a lot less messy, than the
counter arrangement. EUKL presence at St Pancras, along with any
potential future operators, would thus be like an airline at an
airport terminal.

...or a TOC at a major station.


Yes - but like it or not the way passengers have to be dealt with when
it comes to international train services to and from this country is
more similar to air travel than it is to domestic rail travel, albeit
without hold luggage. The whole 'check-in' arrangement has to be,
well, arranged, and passengers have to be herded through it. One part
of my thinking was that if EUKL was responsible for doing this, then
if a competing operator had managed to negotiate access to St P they
could still be given a hard time by EUKL. That said, competition rules
would probably mean they had to play ball.

Indeed I'm actually mildly curious to know how things are handled at
the international part of St Pancras' station at present. The
passenger facing staff who do the 'check-in' are EUKL - but do EUKL or
NR pay for the security staff, and who do they answer to? (I suppose
the answer is probably that EUKL, through LCR, pay NR to manage the
station and hence pay the security staff.) Who are the staff at
platform level - NR or EUKL? The staff at the booking office are
obviously EUKL.

Though having asked all those questions I actually realise that the
precise nature of the arrangements doesn't really matter!


All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

Angels, pins, etc.


Given that even if a competing service ever did run it would be likely
that EUKL at St Pancras would simply be obliged to treat it as if it
were one of its own services, it is all a bit of a moot point really!
It's good that the stations will be vested with HS1, so EUKL couldn't
just say "no" to a new entrant - but again, even if EUKL actually
owned the stations European competition rules would have kicked in and
forced them to open it up to other operators.

Anyway, issues about how precisely things would work at the St Pancras
interface would be very low on the priority list of any operator
genuinely considering running new services - the lack of suitable
trains being a somewhat more pressing issue.

It would of course be great if DB somehow bestowed a new dynamic
impetus on Eurostar through some kind of co-operative agreement or
joint-venture, and got trains running to further afield... but we're
back to familiar uk.railway territory here!

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Mizter T" wrote

Never heard of anything like that, it's very interesting. I'm now
wondering whether there were ever any other similar examples,
excluding times when engineering works or something else going wrong
necessitated it (like the recent occasions when GNER terminated at FP
- I hear it was mayhem, and I guess it was similarly chaotic at Harrow
& Wealdstone when Virgin had to stop/start short there).

I can't think of other cases where a London suburban station has been used
as the terminus of a long-distance train in regular working to avoid use of
the normal terminal station.

There have of course been other 'engineering' examples, like use of Ealing
Broadway for some trains during the 1967 resignalling of Paddington (others
diverted to Marylebone or Kensington Olympia). Summer trains to the Kent
Coast or Hastings have been known to start from Elephant & Castle or New
Cross, though I think that some of them ran ecs from the terminus.

Peter

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

"Mizter T" wrote

Thanks for outlining the service pattern, I couldn't quite discern it
from a quick search through past usenet threads. I presume that May
2001 is the date when the service started operating on a sunday too?
The weekend Camden Road stop was evidently designed for those heading
to the markets and other delights of Camden town.

It does sounds like it had some potential.

IIRC it was marketed particularly as a through train from the GEML to
Feltham (for the bus to Heathrow Airport).

Peter

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 17:39, "Lüko Willms" wrote:
Am Fri, 22 Feb 2008 15:54:11 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway :

All that said, it seems likely that DB is keen on working with
Eurostar as opposed to running competing services, so much of this
talk is probably just hypothetical.

They might think to have a chance to buy EUKL when it is put up for
sale, or at least a controlling majority. Maybe by merging with
National Express...

Cheers,
L.W.


As you know, London and Continental Railways (LCR) is about to be
broken up into three parts - EUKL, HS1 and property interests.

National Express Group plc (NXG) has a 20.94% stake in LCR. It might
also be worth noting that SNCF owns 13.6% of LCR.

When LCR gets broken up I don't know whether NXG or SNCF will be able
to influence the situation with regards to who ends up with ownership
of EUKL - involvement of the UK government makes this whole thing more
complex.

However I'm pretty sure I'm right in saying that NXG loses money as a
result of it's involvement in LCR - because EUKL is loss-making, and
EUKL is a wholly owned subsidiary of LCR.

I wouldn't be that surprised to hear that when LCR gets broken up, NXG
simply sell up and walk away.

I'll be honest and say that I still haven't quite got my head round
the relationship between the government and LCR, apart from the fact
that LCR owes lots of money and the government has guaranteed a large
part of those loans to LCR (i.e. the lenders are as sure of getting
the money they lent to LCR back as if they had lent the government
itself the money).


The precise figures regarding LCR shareholders are taken from a
National Audit Office report, "Progress on the Channel Tunnel Rail
Link", published in July 2005. I don't think the shareholdings have
changed since then, not least because LCR is a privately held company
rather than one listed on the stock exchange hence shares don't change
hands overnight.

See the footnotes on page 9 (PDF page 10) of the report:
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/n...-06/050677.pdf


Of course InterCapital and Regional Rail Ltd (ICRRL) is contracted by
EUKL to run Eurostar's UK operations until 2010 - and NXG own 40% of
ICRRL. But this in itself does not confer any ownership rights over
EUKL to NXG. Indeed, it might simply mean that NXG is even more
acutely aware of the fact that the Eurostar operation is loss making.

How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
 

On 22 Feb, 18:02, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote

Never heard of anything like that, it's very interesting. I'm now
wondering whether there were ever any other similar examples,
excluding times when engineering works or something else going wrong
necessitated it (like the recent occasions when GNER terminated at FP
- I hear it was mayhem, and I guess it was similarly chaotic at Harrow
& Wealdstone when Virgin had to stop/start short there).

I can't think of other cases where a London suburban station has been used
as the terminus of a long-distance train in regular working to avoid use of
the normal terminal station.

There have of course been other 'engineering' examples, like use of Ealing
Broadway for some trains during the 1967 resignalling of Paddington (others
diverted to Marylebone or Kensington Olympia). Summer trains to the Kent
Coast or Hastings have been known to start from Elephant & Castle or New
Cross, though I think that some of them ran ecs from the terminus.

Peter


Interesting stuff. I presume the trains that terminated at Kensington
Olympia ran down from the GWML, using the now gone West London curve
that linked the GWML and NLL? Curious readers might like to know that
the West London curve got swallowed up by the now disused Eurostar
North Pole depot - however one thing I am unclear of is whether there
was just a link from the NLL to the GWML heading west, or whether
there was ever also a link that headed east towards Paddington?

Also, I'm just pondering summer specials in the south east.
Southeastern run a morning special from Victoria to Ramsgate via
Catford, Bromley South and Margate (and presumably a few other places
along the way!), though there's no special return working. I can't
think of any others that still run.