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How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
Am Fri, 22 Feb 2008 18:47:17 UTC, schrieb Mizter T
auf uk.railway : As you know, London and Continental Railways (LCR) is about to be broken up into three parts - EUKL, HS1 and property interests. Thanks a lot for the additional details. Cheers, L.W. |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
"Mizter T" wrote Interesting stuff. I presume the trains that terminated at Kensington Olympia ran down from the GWML, using the now gone West London curve that linked the GWML and NLL? Curious readers might like to know that the West London curve got swallowed up by the now disused Eurostar North Pole depot - however one thing I am unclear of is whether there was just a link from the NLL to the GWML heading west, or whether there was ever also a link that headed east towards Paddington? Yes - the spur from North Pole Junction to Old Oak Common East Junction diverged to the right (travelling north on the WLL) using what is now the exit from the E* depot, running under the WLL (using more or less what is now used as the link between the two halves of the E* depot) to join the GWML facing towards Bristol. There were three routes from Paddington to the WLL. In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton which took the Hammersmith branch at Westbourne Park and used the spur which used to exist from Latimer Road to the WLL. This was used by the 'Middle Circle' service (Edgware Road H&C or beyond to Earls Court or beyond) until 1940. There was a spur from West London Yard (where the eastern part of the E* depot is) to the WLL, used in 1967 by the 1000 SX and 1403 SX Paddington to Kensington Parcels. However, on Saturdays these trains took a different route, via Park Royal, the Greenford spur, and Drayton Green, to reach the WLL via Old Oak Common East and North Pole. Also, I'm just pondering summer specials in the south east. Southeastern run a morning special from Victoria to Ramsgate via Catford, Bromley South and Margate (and presumably a few other places along the way!), though there's no special return working. I can't think of any others that still run. You're out of date. Last Summer this train ran from Victoria to Ramsgate via Lewisham, Eltham and Dartford. It only runs from late July to the end of August; the rest of the year there's a Victoria to Ramsgate ecs working. The return has to be back at Victoria for the evening peak, so is too early for day truippers, who return on the ordinary trains. Most years there's also been a Hastings train, but last Summer this couldn't run because of the tunnel blockade at Tunbridge Wells. As in my previous post, in some years these trains have come into passenger service at such stations as Elephant & Castle or New Cross. Peter |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On Fri, 22 Feb 2008, John B wrote:
On 22 Feb, 14:36, Mizter T wrote: There is also a slim possibility that Stratford could be a terminus for incoming trains from the mainland. A bit like Ryanair stopping at somewhere other than the obvious airport IYSWIM... Still a lot closer to town than 'London' Stansted, Luton, or Gatwick airports - indeed closer to central London than Heathrow airport. Is there really a possibility that Stratford could be a terminus though - I can't see why there would be any need? Because DB, when they introduce their new mythical London - Berlin express (if only they would!), wouldn't want to pay the extra to go to St. Pancras? (Though being serious I can't see that whoever owns the CTRL/HS1 by then would really offer a discounted rate for stopping short!) BR once ran a cut-price train up the ECML to Newcastle (or maybe Edinburgh) that started from Finsbury Park. Not sure whether the logic there was to avoid taking up paths into King's Cross, or whether it was just about deterring 'normal' passengers from taking that train instead of the full-price ones. The paths reason sounds iffy; what use is freeing up a FP-KX path if the corresponding path north of FP is occupied? All you could do is run a KX-FP shuttle. Or KX-FP-Moorgate, i suppose! Ditto Stratford/StP. Oh well, the railway moves in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform. Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later... How on earth did it take you 45 minutes to get from King's Cross back to the Centre of the Universe? Was this before the Victoria line was built, and when the Piccadilly was still clockwork? Oh - or were you getting back after the last tube, and relying on the delights of the buses? Did you consider investing in a bicycle? Or is Mizter on the right track when he intimates that you might have had quite enough riding by that point? tom -- I think it would be a good idea -- Mohandas Gandhi, on Western civilisation |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
Peter Masson wrote:
In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton Was that a quid pro quo for whatever GWR service ran to London Victoria, giving rise to the "Great Western Railway" lettering on the front of that station? -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683649.html (53362 (Class 105) at Stratford Depot, 9 Jul 1981) |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
"Chris Tolley" wrote in message ... Peter Masson wrote: In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton Was that a quid pro quo for whatever GWR service ran to London Victoria, giving rise to the "Great Western Railway" lettering on the front of that station? -- http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9683649.html (53362 (Class 105) at Stratford Depot, 9 Jul 1981) No; I believe that the GWR originally had some sort of running arrangements to Victoria as a second London terminus, though whether these were ever used, I wouldn't like to say. Brian |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
"Chris Tolley" wrote in message ... Peter Masson wrote: In 1906-07 there was a through train from Paddington to Brighton Was that a quid pro quo for whatever GWR service ran to London Victoria, giving rise to the "Great Western Railway" lettering on the front of that station? No - the GWR was, with the LCDR, a joint lessee of the Chatham side of Victoria. Trains, originally broad gauge ran from Southall. IIRC in the 1967 Paddington resignalling Old Oak Common box still called the West London Line the 'Victoria branch'. The 1906-07 through train was, I think, a response to congestion in crossing London, especially by people who did not trust the new-fangled tubes. It was about the same time that a Broad Street - Birmingham express was put on, and in the era when a through train from the Kemnt Coast conveyed through coaches to Manchester by two different routes, splitting at Herne Hill where one portion ran via the WLL and WCML, and another portion ran via what we now know as Thameslink, was taken back from Kentish Town into St Pancras, and attached to a Midland express to Manchester. Peter |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
John B wrote:
On 22 Feb, 16:28, Martin Edwards wrote: I believe this is the train which was discussed on That's Life. BR wanted to get rid of it, but they weren't allowed to, because too many people used it. So they omitted it from all public timetables for a few years, but carried on running it. When this caused usage to plummet, they were then allowed to get rid of it. This would be approx 1980. Yes that's it exactly. My parents saw the programme. Note that this was just when Friedmanism was beginning to bite. Was there any indication given of /why/ BR wanted to get rid of such a popular service? Or was it just about too popular to shut, but nowhere near popular enough to make any money...? -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from electric engine to diesel at Willesden. -- Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management decisions. -From “Rollerball” |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
"Martin Edwards" wrote (Glasgow - Harwich through train) I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from electric engine to diesel at Willesden. It was electric-hauled throughout. I think it was before the ECML electrification, so the Edinburgh portion was diesel-hauled to Carstairs. Peter |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
"Peter Masson" wrote in message
... "Martin Edwards" wrote (Glasgow - Harwich through train) I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from electric engine to diesel at Willesden. It was electric-hauled throughout. I think it was before the ECML electrification, so the Edinburgh portion was diesel-hauled to Carstairs. When was the NLL AC electrification? -- David Biddulph |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 22 Feb, 23:40, Tom Anderson wrote:
Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later... How on earth did it take you 45 minutes to get from King's Cross back to the Centre of the Universe? Was this before the Victoria line was built, and when the Piccadilly was still clockwork? Oh - or were you getting back after the last tube, and relying on the delights of the buses? Did you consider investing in a bicycle? Or is Mizter on the right track when he intimates that you might have had quite enough riding by that point? Lolz. Err, I was thinking 15-ish minutes into KX, 15-ish minutes waiting for a train, and 15-ish minutes from KX to home - worst-case rather than normal, but about right for late-ish on a Sunday night. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 24 Feb, 20:33, John B wrote:
On 22 Feb, 23:40, Tom Anderson wrote: Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later... How on earth did it take you 45 minutes to get from King's Cross back to the Centre of the Universe? Was this before the Victoria line was built, and when the Piccadilly was still clockwork? Oh - or were you getting back after the last tube, and relying on the delights of the buses? Did you consider investing in a bicycle? Or is Mizter on the right track when he intimates that you might have had quite enough riding by that point? Lolz. Err, I was thinking 15-ish minutes into KX, 15-ish minutes waiting for a train, and 15-ish minutes from KX to home - worst-case rather than normal, but about right for late-ish on a Sunday night. This timing would be indicative of you taking a mainline train back to Finsbury Park rather than either the Victoria or Piccadilly lines, and I'd be most surprised to find a weekend when they were both closed between KX and FP for renewals works. So I'm wondering whether you had a through ticket from FP "via London" (i.e. KX) to Edinburgh and back. However, notionally at least any National Rail tickets "which include validity [...] between Finsbury Park and London Terminals" are also valid on the Underground - see page L5 of section L of the NFM (PDF): http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_L.pdf Whilst this is straightforward when it comes to an FP to London Terminals ticket, I can see the potential for things getting a bit complicated when trying to use the Underground for part of a much longer journey - to be specific, I can foresee problems in having unusual National Rail tickets accepted at the gateline at KXSP Underground station (and I would presume that a 'FP to Edinburgh via London return' would fall into that category!). After all, are LU staff really expected to know the ins and outs of permitted routings on National Rail - a pretty complex subject as many past postings here attest. |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 25 Feb, 09:27, Mizter T wrote:
On 24 Feb, 20:33, John B wrote: On 22 Feb, 23:40, Tom Anderson wrote: Either way, I'd've appreciated such a train when I was living in Finsbury Park with a gf in Edinburgh, rather than sailing past my house at 100mph and then getting home 45 minutes later... How on earth did it take you 45 minutes to get from King's Cross back to the Centre of the Universe? Was this before the Victoria line was built, and when the Piccadilly was still clockwork? Oh - or were you getting back after the last tube, and relying on the delights of the buses? Did you consider investing in a bicycle? Or is Mizter on the right track when he intimates that you might have had quite enough riding by that point? Lolz. Err, I was thinking 15-ish minutes into KX, 15-ish minutes waiting for a train, and 15-ish minutes from KX to home - worst-case rather than normal, but about right for late-ish on a Sunday night. This timing would be indicative of you taking a mainline train back to Finsbury Park rather than either the Victoria or Piccadilly lines, and I'd be most surprised to find a weekend when they were both closed between KX and FP for renewals works. So I'm wondering whether you had a through ticket from FP "via London" (i.e. KX) to Edinburgh and back. No - had a normal London to Edinburgh ticket and also a z12 season travelcard. I just also had enough luggage and indolence to prefer a 100 metre walk on the flat to several hundred metres through a building site... (and the frequency isn't all that great on the Piccadilly late at night, either, although the Victoria is usually OK). -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
David Biddulph wrote:
"Peter Masson" wrote in message ... "Martin Edwards" wrote (Glasgow - Harwich through train) I think it was a bit too complicated. It involved a switch from electric engine to diesel at Willesden. It was electric-hauled throughout. I think it was before the ECML electrification, so the Edinburgh portion was diesel-hauled to Carstairs. When was the NLL AC electrification? -- David Biddulph I didn't want to start a flame, but I'm sure he's wrong about that. -- Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management decisions. -From “Rollerball” |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 22 Feb, 09:20, Stimpy wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:59:22 +0000, Neil Williams wrote Train travel by night is far more pleasant in the dark. *It's one of the reasons I mourn the passing of the WCML Mk2s and Mk3s, where there would often be a coach with failed lighting which was able to provide me with a relaxing darkened journey with a good view out. * Mark 1 compartments with the 'bight/dim' switch, corridor blinds and removable tungsten lightbulbs were the best for long distance nighttime travel Ooh! sweet nostalgia! I got one of those- to myself- from Exeter to New St in 1984. |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
In article ,
Stephen Allcroft wrote: On 22 Feb, 09:20, Stimpy wrote: On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 21:59:22 +0000, Neil Williams wrote Train travel by night is far more pleasant in the dark. *It's one of the reasons I mourn the passing of the WCML Mk2s and Mk3s, where there would often be a coach with failed lighting which was able to provide me with a relaxing darkened journey with a good view out. * Mark 1 compartments with the 'bight/dim' switch, corridor blinds and removable tungsten lightbulbs were the best for long distance nighttime travel Ooh! sweet nostalgia! I got one of those- to myself- from Exeter to New St in 1984. I used to know a gentleman who had one side of a Mark I compartment - panelling, seats and IIRC luggage rack / lights - in his living room. Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 17th February 2008) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 21 Feb, 20:48, Mizter T wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote: (snip) Anglia Railways ran a train from the GEML (can't remember where) to Reading or something, ISTR; that went via the NLL. *gogols* London Crosslink, that was it. Chelmsford (or Ipswich, according to some sources) to Basingstoke, apparently; i would have assumed it was Basingstoke via Reading, but from the sound of this (from a press release): (press release and other stuff snipped) Anyway, it didn't do well. It wasn't well advertised, and it was also rather slow, due to the congestion and all that - it interacted with the GEML, the NLL and the Windsor lines, so it must have been a nightmare to run reliably. Still, being able to catch a direct train from High & I to Feltham would have been handy! Day release? I never used the Crossrail service at the time, but I've since read with great interest many threads concerning it from the archives of utl and uk.railway. (snip) However (and I'm really pleased because I looked for this before and failed to find it) the Crossrail service came as a pleasant surprise to a few NLL commuters travelling between West Hampstead, Highbury and Stratford - as 'underachiever' said at the time... "A seat. A buffet! fantastic." Indeed - however good the new London Overground trains might be, I don't think they can top that! That's from a July 2002 post on the utl/uk.railway thread about the withdrawal of Crosslink, and can be read he http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....owse_frm/threa... (snip) For the record - a correction... Despite my nostalgia it seems I have my mind on the future rather than the past, given that when I wrote the above I seemed to have Crossrail on the brain! Either that or I'm just a simple minded soul who gets easily confused. All the above references to "Crossrail" should of course have read "Crosslink" - and that's in spite of a cue from Tom Anderson that literally spelt out literally the name of Anglia Railway's cross London service. Al least I didn't get it confused with the old name for part of what is now the North London Line service - the splendid mouthful that was the "Cross Town Link Line"! |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Mizter T wrote:
Al least I didn't get it confused with the old name for part of what is now the North London Line service - the splendid mouthful that was the "Cross Town Link Line"! The bridge over Mare Street calls it the 'North London Link' - perhaps a transitional form? Anyway, could have been yet worse: you could have called it the Crosstown Local, which would be the wrong city entirely! tom -- All we need now is Jesus the Lord, fine corn liquor and the courage to think the unthinkable. |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 3 Mar, 00:41, Tom Anderson wrote: On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Mizter T wrote: Al least I didn't get it confused with the old name for part of what is now the North London Line service - the splendid mouthful that was the "Cross Town Link Line"! The bridge over Mare Street calls it the 'North London Link' - perhaps a transitional form? OK, my (possibly erroneous) understanding is that the "North London Link" terminology came along when Network SouthEast (NSE) introduced route branding - in this sense a 'route' was several individual, albeit connected lines. The "North London Lines" (note the plural) 'route' was thus created, encompassing the Richmond to North Woolwich line aka the North London Line, GOBLIN and the Euston - Watford DC line (i.e. the stopping service). My thinking was that so as to avoid confusion between the collective "North London Lines" and the "North London Line" service the latter was instead rechristened the "North London Link". Likewise, south of the river the "South London Lines" 'route' was created, encompassing all the suburban services out of Victoria and London Bridge - what today Southern call their 'Metro' routes (though they do not brand them as such). The same problem thus reared its head - the Victoria to London Bridge via Peckham Rye service had long been known as the "South London Line" (and indeed it still is, albeit not branded as such), so this too was renamed the "South London Link" so as to avoid confusion with the wider service. To be honest much of the above is just my supposition - but I supposed it for the reasons that I outline above. If any knowledgeable people out there would like to destroy my link/line hypothesis then please feel free to do so! Further information about NSE's route branding can be found he http://www.nsers.org.uk/nse2.htm Trains had the route's logo and name displayed on the exterior next to doorways or elsewhere on slamdoor stock, whilst timetables, posters and other publicity also made use of them. It wasn't a bad idea at the time - it was all part of NSE's attempts to get themselves out of their Ivory tower mindset and closer to their customers, the passengers (and indeed their potential customer - passengers too). Anyway, could have been yet worse: you could have called it the Crosstown Local, which would be the wrong city entirely! If we had to name a London service the "Crosstown Local" what would it be? NYC's Brooklyn - Queens Crosstown Local (the "G") doesn't enter Manhatten, so perhaps likewise we need a service that doesn't enter central London. Dare I say that the NLL is quite a good fit. Or perhaps the Hammersmith & City line - arguably it skirts the centre and provides a local service. I'm not quite sure what a "Crosstown Express" would be - certainly not Thameslink, that's for sure... possibly the Willesden to Clapham 'two junctions' service, but that's only half-hourly... it has to be the Victoria line really - Finsbury Park to Brixton in 24 minutes! When the ELLX opens that might make a good candidate for the "Crosstown Local" moniker... Anyway, we're British, we don't need to be following these strange yankee naming conventions, we've got good, solid names of our own, like, er... the Bakerloo line, and Great Uncle Bulgaria's favourite the Wimbleware line. Well, the latter if utl had its way. Probably just as well we don't! |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
In article ,
Nick Leverton wrote: I used to know a gentleman who had one side of a Mark I compartment - panelling, seats and IIRC luggage rack / lights - in his living room. Was he a virgin? |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
Mizter T wrote:
When the ELLX opens that might make a good candidate for the "Crosstown Local" moniker... Because it visits so many cross towns? |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 3 Mar, 10:42, "John Rowland"
wrote: Mizter T wrote: When the ELLX opens that might make a good candidate for the "Crosstown Local" moniker... Because it visits so many cross towns? Ahh... very good, Mr Rowland, very good! (In Brockley there is actually a place very near the station called Brockley Cross, whilst in Dalston what is now known - perhaps with a bit more historically accuracy - as Kingsland Shopping Centre was until relatively recently Dalston Cross Shopping Centre... this is stretching a bit thin now isn't it!) |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 3 Mar, 02:29, Mizter T wrote:
OK, my (possibly erroneous) understanding is that the "North London Link" terminology came along when Network SouthEast (NSE) introduced route branding - in this sense a 'route' was several individual, albeit connected lines. My understanding is "CrossTown LinkLine" was the name for when passenger service on the line between Dalston and Stratford resumed, with diesel trains running Camden Road-North Woolwich. A short while later they electrified the whole thing and built the stations from Dalston Kingsland to Hackney Wick, and linked it up to the service to Richmond, which is when I'd assume the "North London Link" name came about, hence the big sign at Hackney Central (there's an incredible BR clock sculpture further north by the car park, btw). When that became "North London Line" I don't know. U -- http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/ A blog about transport projects in London |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
On 3 Mar, 11:29, Mr Thant wrote: On 3 Mar, 02:29, Mizter T wrote: OK, my (possibly erroneous) understanding is that the "North London Link" terminology came along when Network SouthEast (NSE) introduced route branding - in this sense a 'route' was several individual, albeit connected lines. My understanding is "CrossTown LinkLine" was the name for when passenger service on the line between Dalston and Stratford resumed, with diesel trains running Camden Road-North Woolwich. A short while later they electrified the whole thing and built the stations from Dalston Kingsland to Hackney Wick, and linked it up to the service to Richmond, which is when I'd assume the "North London Link" name came about, hence the big sign at Hackney Central (there's an incredible BR clock sculpture further north by the car park, btw). When that became "North London Line" I don't know. U I think the etymology of the "North London Link" name that you offer is probably right and my hypothesis is wrong. AIUI historically the "North London Line" was the name of the old Broad Street to Richmond service (or at least what it was known as). Thus, when the service was redirected from Broad Street to North Woolwich (via Stratford), replacing the interim CrossTown LinkLine service, perhaps the decision was taken to give it a new name rather than just calling it the North London Line - hence the "North London Link" name. UIVMM the full electric Richmond - North Woolwich (via Stratford) service started when these trains were diverted away from Broad Street in May 1985 [1], so I'm guessing that's when the "North London Link" name dates from - can anyone confirm this? (I also think I'm right in saying that not all the stations on the Dalston to Stratford stretch were open when this happened.) If I'm right then the "North London Link" name dates from well before the introduction by NSE of route brands such as "North London Lines" - which does, in retrospect, make more sense, given the pedigree of some North London Link signage that I've seen over the years (in BR black text as opposed to NSE blue, for example). However the renaming of the South London Line to the "South London Link" *does* appear to date from when route brands where introduced in 1991, presumably taking its inspiration from the North London Link name. Calling the specific Victoria - London Bridge (via Peckham Rye) service the "South London Link" thus did help prevent confusion with the wider "South London Lines" route brand. This renaming (or rebranding even) of that specific service was all tied up with it having been 'saved' and its subsequent promotion. I can date the South London Line/Link renaming to 1991 courtesy of this old Railwatch magazine article on the web, concerning the campaign to save and rejuvenate it: http://www.railwatch.org.uk/backtrack/rw73/sll.html So my hypotheses about the link/line renaming was not something I completely conjured up out of my imagination - there was a grain of truth to it, but only in respect of the South London Line, not the North London Line. Furthermore I'm now led to wonder whether it has ever been right to refer to the North London Line service at places like North Woolwich, Stratford and Hackney Central - this has been the "North London Link" right from the start! Of course common understanding is based on common usage, so calling it the North London Line is fine, in my books at least. ----- [1] Disused Stations - Broad Street http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...et/index.shtml |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
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How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
John Rowland wrote:
Mizter T wrote: When the ELLX opens that might make a good candidate for the "Crosstown Local" moniker... Because it visits so many cross towns? Oooh! Oooh! -- Corporate society looks after everything. All it asks of anyone, all it has ever asked of anyone, is that they do not interfere with management decisions. -From “Rollerball” |
How to terminate a North-South HSL in London?
In article ,
Sarah Brown wrote: In article , Nick Leverton wrote: I used to know a gentleman who had one side of a Mark I compartment - panelling, seats and IIRC luggage rack / lights - in his living room. Was he a virgin? IIRC he regularly went all the way ... Nick -- Serendipity: http://www.leverton.org/blosxom (last update 17th February 2008) "The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life" -- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996 |
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