On 9 Apr, 15:01, Roland Perry wrote:
I have given up (apart from to odd heckle from the sidelines like today)
tracking the numbers. Especially when people say this 1100 might be on
top of an earlier 1300, and I was only trying to track a different 1000.

The problem is the Rolling Stock Plan (the 1300) only covers until ca.
2014, which means only the first batch of NGEMU are included in it
(the 1100, due in 2015) . Roger Ford says 100 carriages.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Mr Thant wrote:

The problem is the Rolling Stock Plan (the 1300) only covers until ca.
2014, which means only the first batch of NGEMU are included in it
(the 1100, due in 2015) . Roger Ford says 100 carriages.

The NGEMUs are distinct from the RSP 1300 (well the latest figure is
more like 1200+ but I can't remember exactly what it is). According to a
certain Modern Railways contributor (yes, it's Roger again), the DfT are
recommending that 256 of the 'RSP 1300' should be set aside for FCC.

64 of these will be allocated to FCC GN (10 321s + 8 313s), which means
FCC TL will be allocated 192 vehicles, of which 92 are the 23 377s
coming over for KO0 (March 2009). That leaves 100 vehicles for KO1
(December 2011), which will most likely be 25 377s and certainly not
NGEMUs as you suggest - the first NGEMU won't even be in passenger
service for another 2 months!

On 9 Apr, 19:03, Sky Rider wrote:
O0 (March 2009). That leaves 100 vehicles for KO1
(December 2011), which will most likely be 25 377s and certainly not
NGEMUs as you suggest - the first NGEMU won't even be in passenger
service for another 2 months!

Well I was quoting from last month's MR, though on another read it's
unclear - the DfT state "the Thameslink project will also introduce
new vehicles", but in the table beside Roger has them as 25 377s from
Southern. But then a couple of pages on in the Thameslink article the
latter is sort of framed as his own suggestion.

If only he were around to clarify.

U

--
http://londonconnections.blogspot.com/
A blog about transport projects in London

Mr Thant wrote:

Well I was quoting from last month's MR

So was I, as it happens.

though on another read it's unclear - the DfT state "the Thameslink project will also introduce new vehicles", but in the table beside Roger has them as
25 377s from Southern.

But then a couple of pages on in the Thameslink article the latter is sort of framed as his own suggestion.

Point accepted, but I did say 'most likely'. Perhaps we agree on the
NGEMUs now, but just to further my case, I will quote a paragraph from
the RSP:

'15. In addition, the [Thameslink] programme requires additional
vehicles for KO1 in 2011. It is expected that these vehicles will be
either cascaded existing EMU vehicles or new vehicles based on existing
designs with some, but maybe not all, of the features of the next
generation vehicles. However, it is possible that the next generation
vehicles proposed for KO2 in 2015 could be delivered earlier, possibly
by 2010 – 2011, if manufacturers are capable of delivering the required
outputs.'

As we already know, the first NGEMU should be in passenger service by 1
February 2012, but certainly not another 24. For some reason (once again
I have the Captain to thank for this) the DfT expect the first NGEMU to
be delivered more than a year before the first IEP train despite the
fact that NGEMU procurement has only just started, whereas IEP
procurement has been active for months.

If only he were around to clarify.

Agreed. And he was around less than 2 hours ago. g

On 9 Apr, 20:26, Sky Rider wrote:
Mr Thant wrote:
Well I was quoting from last month's MR

So was I, as it happens.

though on another read it's unclear - the DfT state "the Thameslink project will also introduce new vehicles", but in the table beside Roger has them as
25 377s from Southern.
But then a couple of pages on in the Thameslink article the latter is sort of framed as his own suggestion.

Point accepted, but I did say 'most likely'. Perhaps we agree on the
NGEMUs now, but just to further my case, I will quote a paragraph from
the RSP:

'15. In addition, the [Thameslink] programme requires additional
vehicles for KO1 in 2011. It is expected that these vehicles will be
either cascaded existing EMU vehicles or new vehicles based on existing
designs with some, but maybe not all, of the features of the next
generation vehicles. However, it is possible that the next generation
vehicles proposed for KO2 in 2015 could be delivered earlier, possibly
by 2010 - 2011, if manufacturers are capable of delivering the required
outputs.'

As we already know, the first NGEMU should be in passenger service by 1
February 2012, but certainly not another 24. For some reason (once again
I have the Captain to thank for this) the DfT expect the first NGEMU to
be delivered more than a year before the first IEP train despite the
fact that NGEMU procurement has only just started, whereas IEP
procurement has been active for months.

If only he were around to clarify.

Agreed. And he was around less than 2 hours ago. g

Right,

All these figures for Thameslink are inferred, as explained in the
write up on the Laughing Stock Plan.

FCC inferred from their net gain that they got 192 vehicles for KO. I
made it 100. I think I am right..

Either way, these are South Central 377s converted to dual voltage.
Hence South Central get 100 new vehicles to back fill.

The suggestion by DafT that the NGEMU could be delivered for KO1,
when tendering had not started and no detailed spec existed is par for
the course.

Meanwhile I have sussed out how the 1300 vehicles for Thameslink have
turned into 1100. Apparently further work since the LSP was published
shows that 1300 was over the top and 1100 will now do the job.

Hope this helps.

In article
,
(Capt. Deltic) wrote:

Meanwhile I have sussed out how the 1300 vehicles for Thameslink have
turned into 1100. Apparently further work since the LSP was published
shows that 1300 was over the top and 1100 will now do the job.

Doesn't that make some heroic assumptions that "they" know what the job
is? Lynn to Eastbourne requires more stock than Lynn to East Croydon or
Gatwick, surely?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article
,
(Capt. Deltic) wrote:

Meanwhile I have sussed out how the 1300 vehicles for Thameslink have
turned into 1100. Apparently further work since the LSP was
published shows that 1300 was over the top and 1100 will now do the
job.

Doesn't that make some heroic assumptions that "they" know what the
job is? Lynn to Eastbourne requires more stock than Lynn to East
Croydon or Gatwick, surely?

I believe there is enough evidence in the public domain to strike both Kings
Lynn and Eastbourne from the route, namely the recent discovery of Kings
Lynn in the IEP programme, and the dissapearance of places like Eastbourne
and Littlehampton from the Thameslink final route maps in the more recent
South London RUS...

Paul S

Capt. Deltic wrote:

FCC inferred from their net gain that they got 192 vehicles for KO. I
made it 100. I think I am right..

Which KO? Is it still 92 for KO0 and 100 for KO1 as before?

Either way, these are South Central 377s converted to dual voltage.
Hence South Central get 100 new vehicles to back fill.

That point I remember from MR March 2008.

The suggestion by DafT that the NGEMU could be delivered for KO1,
when tendering had not started and no detailed spec existed is par for
the course.

Interesting...

Meanwhile I have sussed out how the 1300 vehicles for Thameslink have
turned into 1100. Apparently further work since the LSP was published
shows that 1300 was over the top and 1100 will now do the job.

I see...the bidders could still propose anything between 900 and 1300
vehicles though, right?