http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=4878
quote
Network Rail plans for 32 Thameslink trains an hour
Filed 09/04/08

Up to 32 trains an hour will run between London and the south coast
along Thameslink routes by 2015, according to information contained
within Network Rail's newly published South London Route Utilisation
Strategy.

The RUS shows what timetable enhancements passengers can expect to see
from implementation of the £5.5bn Thameslink Programme, signed off by
the government last summer (Transport Briefing 24/07/07). It promises
new through-London services from towns including Maidstone, Tunbridge
Wells, East Grinstead and Horsham. However other places that were
expected to gain Thameslink services under the Thameslink 2000 plans
worked up by Network Rail's predecessor Railtrack, such as Dartford,
Eastbourne, Littlehampton, Ashford and Guildford, will not be included
on the new network. In order to reduce train crossovers, the current
Wimbledon loop services will no longer run through London, instead
terminating at Blackfriars.

Key Output 2 - the fully upgraded Thameslink network due to be
delivered in 2015 - will provide 18 peak time trains an hour through
London Bridge - four per hour through London to Brighton (two of which
will have limited stops), two trains per hour to East Grinstead, four
to Tonbridge with two going on to Tunbridge Wells, four to Gatwick
Airport with two going on to Horsham, and four stoppers running to
Sydenham and East Croydon. An additional six trains will run through
London via Elephant and Castle with four heading to Orpington/
Sevenoaks and two running to Maidstone. A further eight trains will
start and terminate at Blackfriars, providing four services along the
Wimbledon loop plus two running to and from Herne Hill and two heading
to Rochester in Kent.

The current proposals will deliver at least two peak trains per hour
on each Thameslink route but 10 of the routes merge, providing four
trains per hour for most stations. Two unpaired two-train-per-hour
routes are required to allow 6tph via Elephant & Castle and 18 via
London Bridge. The figure 18 has been arrived at to take full
advantage of the London Bridge/Borough Market Viaduct upgrade while
addressing bottlenecks at Herne Hill and on the Catford loop which
will not be resolved by the Thameslink project.

It is understood that timetable planners have omitted Eastbourne and
Littlehampton from the enlarged Thameslink network because it was not
feasible to run two trains per hour from these destinations. Services
via Greenwich will in future terminate at Cannon Street rather than
Charing Cross so that there is no need for them to cross over the
Thameslink tracks. South Eastern suburban routes are deemed better
suited to 20 minute service patterns than the usual 15 or 30 minute
service patterns, explaining why Dartford - which is already served by
Charing Cross, Cannon Street and Victoria trains, is no longer
included on the planned Thameslink network.

One knock-on effect of the Thameslink Programme will be a reduction in
the number of peak trains serving the Cannon Street terminus from 25
to 20 trains per hour. On delivery of Key Output 2 Cannon Street
trains will maintain their current three platforms at London Bridge
(two in the peak direction, one in the off-peak) but changes to track
at London Bridge will mean that it will no longer be possible to bring
in additional rolling stock from the Grove Park sidings via
Blackfriars. As a result, Tunbridge Wells and Paddock Wood trains that
currently terminate at Cannon Street will be converted to cross-London
Thameslink routes.

North of the capital current plans envisage 16 of the through London
services continuing up the Midland Main Line (as used by current
Thameslink trains run by First Capital Connect) while eight would
serve the East Coast Main Line routes using the new connection built
at St Pancras. Previous proposals specified 14 MML trains with 10 ECML
services. Given that the South London RUS focuses on service provision
south of the capital details of Thameslink calling patterns north of
London are not yet clear.

Meanwhile, Network Rail has acknowledged that delivery of Key Output 0
of the Thameslink Programme has slipped from December 2008 to March
2009. This percursor to main works will effectively join South Eastern
and First Capital Connect's timetables through Blackfriars and the
central London tunnels so that the Blackfriars bay platforms can be
closed to allow work on the station upgrade to commence. It will also
include the closure of the Moorgate branch line. Key Ouput 1, due to
be delivered in 2011, will add Rochester, Maidstone East, Sevenoaks,
Orpington and extra stopping services to Three Bridges to current
Thameslink destinations.
Unquote

With the transfer of the Thameslink Sutton Loop services to other
south eastern destinations – and their termination at Blackfriars will
these service continue to be part of the Thameslink franchise or would
they be better integrated into a southern franchise or even possibly
LOROL. Would a connection to the ELL be of advantage?

On Apr 11, 10:22 am, Mwmbwls wrote:
With the transfer of the Thameslink Sutton Loop services to other
south eastern destinations - and their termination at Blackfriars will
these service continue to be part of the Thameslink franchise or would

I never understood why it was part of it in the first place.
Thameslink was supposed to be a north to south express route. Not a
north to obscure-suburb-in-sw-london local train. I mean why Sutton?
Why not Wandsworth or Dulwich or Chessington or ..... If anyone
suggested the northbound thameslink had a terminus at Barnet everyone
would laugh, but for some reason if its in south london no ones bats
an eyelid.

B2003

On 11 Apr, 10:53, Boltar wrote:
On Apr 11, 10:22 am, Mwmbwls wrote:

With the transfer of the Thameslink Sutton Loop services to other
south eastern destinations - and their termination at Blackfriars will
these service continue to be part of the Thameslink franchise or would

I never understood why it was part of it in the first place.
Thameslink was supposed to be a north to south express route. Not a
north to obscure-suburb-in-sw-london local train. I mean why Sutton?
Why not Wandsworth or Dulwich or Chessington or ..... If anyone
suggested the northbound thameslink had a terminus at Barnet everyone
would laugh, but for some reason if its in south london no ones bats
an eyelid.

B2003

It's become an express route now, but at the time I think it was
envisaged to be away of avoiding turning round suburban services at
termini.

Note how originally there was no first class in the 319/0s, and it
only came in with the later, smaller fleet of 319/1s. Now the smaller
fleet of 319/1s has become the "Metro" 319/3s and the 319/0s have
mostly become the "Cityflier" 319/4s with first class put in.

Thamselink directly replaced the local services from St Pancras and
the services that had been running from Holborn Viaduct, which at
various times included services to Wimbledon and Sutton.

So I guess the reason for it was purely because services used to go
that way from Holborn Viaduct.

On Apr 11, 10:53*am, Boltar wrote:
I never understood why it was part of it in the first place.
Thameslink was supposed to be a north to south express route. Not a
north to obscure-suburb-in-sw-london local train. I mean why Sutton?
Why not Wandsworth or Dulwich or Chessington or ..... If anyone
suggested the northbound thameslink had a terminus at Barnet everyone
would laugh, but for some reason if its in south london no ones bats
an eyelid.
You are right up to a point. Thameslink fused not only semi fasts
from Bedford,Luton and Saint Albans to Brighton etc but also locals
starting in the main at Saint Albans. Although many of these ran
through to Moorgate following the Old Widened lines train patterns -
some ran through to Blackfriars - going straight on to the Sutton loop
was just a convenience when the peak hour traffic through London
Bridge was blocked. With the recasting of Blackfriars terminal
platforms - it makes sense to change the arrangements. IIRC at some
stage there was a plan to run the ELL through to East Dulwich before
Clapham Junction became the south London station of choice- hence my
suggestion for a partial ELLX transfer..

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, Boltar wrote:

On Apr 11, 10:22 am, Mwmbwls wrote:

With the transfer of the Thameslink Sutton Loop services to other
south eastern destinations - and their termination at Blackfriars will
these service continue to be part of the Thameslink franchise or would

I never understood why it was part of it in the first place. Thameslink
was supposed to be a north to south express route. Not a north to
obscure-suburb-in-sw-london local train. I mean why Sutton? Why not
Wandsworth or Dulwich or Chessington or .....

It's got to be somewhere, hasn't it? If it was Chessington, you'd be
asking why not Sutton.

If anyone suggested the northbound thameslink had a terminus at Barnet
everyone would laugh,

Er, you know that the Thameslink inners terminate at St Albans, right?
That's barely outside London.

tom

--
Ed editor textorum probatissimus est -- Cicero, De officiis IV.7

Boltar wrote:

I never understood why it was part of it in the first place.

It wasn't. It was more like the third place.

Thameslink was supposed to be a north to south express route. Not a
north to obscure-suburb-in-sw-london local train. I mean why Sutton?

I think it was a by-product of available routes - and also I don't think it
was part of the original set-up in the late 1980s, which nixes the idea it
was a Holborn Viaduct inheritance. Until about 1994 (?) the second
Thameslink branch ran via West Croydon, Sutton, Epsom and Guildford, whilst
I recall the "loop" didn't really operate as such but rather South London
Lines trains ran from the terminuses to Wimbledon, Sutton and then West
Croydon (and possibly back up to the centre), with the Sutton to Mitcham
section covered by trains to/from Victoria.

Then between 1994 & 1996 (?) the second Thameslink branch was cut back to
West Croydon. Then from about 1996 (?) it was replaced with the Sutton loop.

I presume the reasoning was to cut down the amount of track it shared with
what was then Connex South Central and also the problems of congestion - in
early 1994 I started commuting Epsom to Blackfriars but my recollection is
that the through service was never a viable option, possibly because it took
far too long, perhaps because the timetable didn't fit well with my
departure and arrival needs.

Why not Wandsworth or Dulwich or Chessington or ..... If anyone
suggested the northbound thameslink had a terminus at Barnet everyone
would laugh, but for some reason if its in south london no ones bats
an eyelid.

Well yes - but the rail routes long predated Thameslink. And also the
limited number of tubes in South London means that a through service that
can reach North London is not undesirable - and the Sutton loop is about as
far west from the Croydon mainline as Thameslink could reasonably do (any
further would still need to go as far as Wimbledon and then clash with both
whatever was serving Wimbledon to Sutton and the south west lines).

I'm sorry if this is a bit of a stupid questions, but by Wimbledon
loop do people mean the one with Sutton on it, right? What's the one
from Clapham Junction to Richmond, Kingston and Wimbledon called then?

sweek wrote:

I'm sorry if this is a bit of a stupid questions, but by Wimbledon
loop do people mean the one with Sutton on it, right?

Yes.

What's the one
from Clapham Junction to Richmond, Kingston and Wimbledon called then?

The Kingston loop I think.

On 11 Apr, 18:13, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

sweek wrote:
I'm sorry if this is a bit of a stupid questions, but by Wimbledon
loop do people mean the one with Sutton on it, right?

Yes.

It variously gets called the Wimbledon Loop, the Sutton Loop and the
Sutton/Wimbledon (or indeed Wimbledon/Sutton) Loop. All the same thing.

In article ,
(Tim Roll-Pickering) wrote:

sweek wrote:

I'm sorry if this is a bit of a stupid questions, but by Wimbledon
loop do people mean the one with Sutton on it, right?

Yes.

What's the one from Clapham Junction to Richmond, Kingston and
Wimbledon called then?

The Kingston loop I think.

The Kingston roundabout.

--
Colin Rosenstiel