There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car, a
tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this morning.
Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...detail/article.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-Croydon.html

(people should avoid the Mail's pictures if they would be offended by
knowing it is tram 2534).
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

That was nasty, from the pictures it appears that the bus ended up on
the pavement and was corrdored(?) between bollards and shopfronts.
Anyone on the pavement wouldn't have had much chance.

On 7 Sep, 17:26, Arthur Figgis wrote:
There was an accident involving a bus, a (reported to be parked) car, a
tram, and possibly a moving car, in George Street, Croydon this morning.
Unfortunately the pedestrian was killed, and the bus driver injured.

It seems to be a slightly out-of-the-ordinary accident - the tram and
bus have ended up quite a way from each other.

http://www.thisiscroydontoday.co.uk/...an-killed-tram....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-horrific-bus...


A pretty horrendous accident. The first link is to the Croydon
Advertiser (aka This is Croydon Today) article, which provides the
most information, whilst the Daily Mail story has the pictures.

A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. Two things in the story caught my eye in particular - first
off, the possibility that the traffic lights (which also control tram
movements) had failed, though it's important to note that this is in
no way confirmed (just because a copper on the scene says so to a
local hack doesn't mean it was so). Secondly, the apparent reason why
the bus travelled so far being that the driver had been knocked
unconscious.

The Mail story says that Police Collision Investigation officers are
looking in to the accident. It's interesting to consider where the
emphasis of investigation of incidents falls when a tram is involved,
given that HMRI is the safety regulator (for want of a better phrase)
of the tram system, and BTP is responsible for policing the system.
This incident would appear to be more of a road traffic accident and
thus fall within the domain of the local (Met) police, however *if*
(and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in some way
malfunctioned then things would become more interesting given the
interface between highway and tramway signalling.

"Mizter T" wrote

The Mail story says that Police Collision Investigation officers are
looking in to the accident. It's interesting to consider where the
emphasis of investigation of incidents falls when a tram is involved,
given that HMRI is the safety regulator (for want of a better phrase)
of the tram system, and BTP is responsible for policing the system.
This incident would appear to be more of a road traffic accident and
thus fall within the domain of the local (Met) police, however *if*
(and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in some way
malfunctioned then things would become more interesting given the
interface between highway and tramway signalling.

It will be worth keeping an eye on the RAIB site to see if they open an
investigation, though they probably won't if, as you suggest, it was
essentially a road traffic collision.

Peter

On Sep 7, 7:46*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

The Mail story says that Police Collision Investigation officers are
looking in to the accident. It's interesting to consider where the
emphasis of investigation of incidents falls when a tram is involved,
given that HMRI is the safety regulator (for want of a better phrase)
of the tram system, and BTP is responsible for policing the system.
This incident would appear to be more of a road traffic accident and
thus fall within the domain of the local (Met) police, however *if*
(and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in some way
malfunctioned then things would become more interesting given the
interface between highway and tramway signalling.

It will be worth keeping an eye on the RAIB site to see if they open an
investigation, though they probably won't if, as you suggest, it was
essentially a road traffic collision.


The RAIB was also at the back of my mind when I wrote the above but
for some reason not at the front of my mind.

If (big if again) there was any malfunction of traffic signals linked
to the tram system then I presume they'd be very interested indeed,
but that's far from being a known at the moment.

Mizter T wrote:

A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. ... *if* (and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in
some way malfunctioned then things would become more interesting
given the interface between highway and tramway signalling.

I don't follow your reasoning. If the genesis of the accident is a bus
swerving to miss a car, then I can't see that the tram's signalling is
in any way implicated.


--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632956.html
(43 084 at Basingstoke, May 1995)

Chris Tolley wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

A bus swerving to avoid a car would appear to be the genesis of the
accident. ... *if* (and that is a big if) the traffic signals had in
some way malfunctioned then things would become more interesting
given the interface between highway and tramway signalling.

I don't follow your reasoning. If the genesis of the accident is a bus
swerving to miss a car, then I can't see that the tram's signalling is
in any way implicated.

Presumably the road and tram signals are interlinked in some way, to
avoid a tram being sent into the path of cars, or vice versa.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Arthur Figgis writes:

Presumably the road and tram signals are interlinked in some way, to
avoid a tram being sent into the path of cars, or vice versa.

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Graham Murray wrote:

Arthur Figgis writes:

Presumably the road and tram signals are interlinked in some way, to
avoid a tram being sent into the path of cars, or vice versa.

On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

One can imagine good reasons for there being a separate signal for the
tram, including the phasing of tram signals being different and,
especially in situations where there are multiple lanes of traffic, the
need to give a signal that applies to the tram but not to traffic.

--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9632899.html
(33 119 at Eastleigh, 15 May 1985)

On 8 Sep, 06:26, Graham Murray wrote:
On the other hand, where a tram is running along a road, is there any
need for it to have separate signals? Would it not suffice for it to
have to obey the same red/amber/green traffic lights as other traffic?

Croydon Tramlink doesn't have a signalling system. It's fairer to say
that the traffic light system includes lights targeted at tram
drivers.

U