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Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?
Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf For further information the draft agreement he http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays, Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes... Paul S |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... It looks like there are two separate issues: - Service from Wembley Central to Milton Keynes is protected, and Southern agree, but they don't like it. - Service from Kensington Olympia to Milton Keynes is also protected, unless the service "calls at or passes through" Clapham Junction. Network Rail thinks this means trains starting at Clapham Junction aren't allowed. Southern disagree, pointing out the next clause "or starts or terminates beyond these stations". So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls and the CJ starters that are in doubt. U |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services? Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf For further information the draft agreement he http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays, Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes... Paul S In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town and Birmingham. It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension, another victim of the WCML upgrade. I'm pleased to see that sense is prevailing and it is going back further north, although the change of trains required to get to Gatwick Airport may somewhat limit it's usefulness. I am aware of the capacity constraints between Rugby and Birmingham that may mean it's a non-starter, but does anyone out there have any idea if Southern (or indeed Southern/LM, both being Govia companies) have any plans to extend at either end? They could use both 350's and 377's for this service! Rich |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Oct 8, 3:03*am, darkprince66
wrote: On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote: A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services? Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK.... http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf For further information the draft agreement he http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays, Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes... Paul S In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town and Birmingham. It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension, another victim of the WCML upgrade. To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only the odd run went to Brighton originally. It was really a Gatwick to Rugby service. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
"MIG" wrote in message ... On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66 wrote: On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote: A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services? Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf For further information the draft agreement he http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays, Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes... Paul S In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town and Birmingham. It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension, another victim of the WCML upgrade. To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only the odd run went to Brighton originally. It was really a Gatwick to Rugby service. And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes. :( |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 8 Oct, 15:15, "4sub" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message ... On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66 wrote: On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote: A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services? Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf For further information the draft agreement he http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays, Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes... Paul S In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town and Birmingham. It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension, another victim of the WCML upgrade. To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only the odd run went to Brighton originally. *It was really a Gatwick to Rugby service. And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes. :(- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm... |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 8 Oct, 15:15, "4sub" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message ... On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66 wrote: On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote: A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services? Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf For further information the draft agreement he http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays, Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes... Paul S In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town and Birmingham. It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension, another victim of the WCML upgrade. To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only the odd run went to Brighton originally. *It was really a Gatwick to Rugby service. And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes. :(- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I often found you were lucky to get a train on a Monday morning. Connex had usually had to swipe them to cover shortage elsewhere... :- ( Rich |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote:
Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm... Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes- Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush) corridor, the WLL, and services in south london |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 9 Oct, 20:28, Paul Weaver wrote:
On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote: Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm... Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes-Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush) corridor, the WLL, and services in south london I knew the moment I hit send that someone would..... ;-) Rich |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
Paul Weaver wrote:
On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote: Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm... Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes- Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush) corridor, the WLL, and services in south london Hopefully there should be enough Central Line capacity to cope with pax using Shepherds Bush as a western version of Stratford... Paul S |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Oct 9, 9:51 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: Paul Weaver wrote: On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote: Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm... Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes- Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush) corridor, the WLL, and services in south london Hopefully there should be enough Central Line capacity to cope with pax using Shepherds Bush as a western version of Stratford... With a good enough service it could relieve pressure on the Victoria line from Euston for people heading to oxford circus. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 01:28:53 -0700 (PDT), Paul Weaver
wrote: With a good enough service it could relieve pressure on the Victoria line from Euston for people heading to oxford circus. It'd have to be at least half-hourly, I reckon. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
Mr Thant wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote: Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK... It looks like there are two separate issues: - Service from Wembley Central to Milton Keynes is protected, and Southern agree, but they don't like it. - Service from Kensington Olympia to Milton Keynes is also protected, unless the service "calls at or passes through" Clapham Junction. Network Rail thinks this means trains starting at Clapham Junction aren't allowed. Southern disagree, pointing out the next clause "or starts or terminates beyond these stations". So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls and the CJ starters that are in doubt. Just keeping an eye on this 'MoC' issue, ORR have now put all the correspondence between the various 'learned friends' up on their website. There is a surprising amount of debate about the meaning of the word 'call', for those interested it is some way down this page, at New Southern Railway Ltd, 27th SA: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1258 Paul |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:33:29 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:
Mr Thant wrote: [18 quoted lines suppressed] Just keeping an eye on this 'MoC' issue, ORR have now put all the correspondence between the various 'learned friends' up on their website. There is a surprising amount of debate about the meaning of the word 'call', for those interested it is some way down this page, at New Southern Railway Ltd, 27th SA: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1258 Paul Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I bookmarked it but obviously didn't. Steve |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:11:11 +0000, Steve
wrote: Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I bookmarked it but obviously didn't. Not to hand, though it's probably on www.londonmidland.com by now. I recall noticing that, unlike the original plan, there is to be a peak service, which will make it very useful indeed if I need to go to our head office in Staines. Indeed, the new timetable will make a number of things better for me in the end - the 0711 off BLY starts there, so I can look forward to a warm train to wait on rather than a freezing platform! (In exchange it's a bit slower, but that shouldn't matter too much). Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:11:11 +0000, Steve wrote: Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I bookmarked it but obviously didn't. Not to hand, though it's probably on www.londonmidland.com by now. I recall noticing that, unlike the original plan, there is to be a peak service, which will make it very useful indeed if I need to go to our head office in Staines. Indeed, the new timetable will make a number of things better for me in the end - the 0711 off BLY starts there, so I can look forward to a warm train to wait on rather than a freezing platform! (In exchange it's a bit slower, but that shouldn't matter too much). http://londonmidland.go-cms.co.uk/ap..._GRIDS_WEB.pdf Full info south of Shepherd's Bush is on the Southern site though Neil, amazingly enough... :-) http://www.southernrailway.com/routes.php?r=5&m=route Unfortunately separate links for weekdays, Sat, Sun, other direction etc... Paul |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
Paul Scott wrote:
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:11:11 +0000, Steve wrote: Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I bookmarked it but obviously didn't. Not to hand, though it's probably on www.londonmidland.com by now. I recall noticing that, unlike the original plan, there is to be a peak service, which will make it very useful indeed if I need to go to our head office in Staines. Indeed, the new timetable will make a number of things better for me in the end - the 0711 off BLY starts there, so I can look forward to a warm train to wait on rather than a freezing platform! (In exchange it's a bit slower, but that shouldn't matter too much). http://londonmidland.go-cms.co.uk/ap..._GRIDS_WEB.pdf Full info south of Shepherd's Bush is on the Southern site though Neil, amazingly enough... :-) http://www.southernrailway.com/routes.php?r=5&m=route Unfortunately separate links for weekdays, Sat, Sun, other direction etc... Paul Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... G |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 29 Nov, 16:50, Gavin Hamilton
wrote: Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... G- Indeed, crew training runs Selhurst Depot to Bletchley CS, no runs to Kilton Keynes until the bay is sorted. grid |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 16:50:11 +0000, Gavin Hamilton
wrote: Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... You sure it wasn't a Desiro? The service hasn't started yet. Unless it was a crew-training run, I guess. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
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Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
"Neil Williams" wrote in message ... On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 16:50:11 +0000, Gavin Hamilton wrote: Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... You sure it wasn't a Desiro? The service hasn't started yet. Unless it was a crew-training run, I guess. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. This http://abpr2.railfan.net/abprphoto.c...ddington_1.jpg was buzzing back and forth through Cheddington on 7th November. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
Neil Williams wrote:
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 16:50:11 +0000, Gavin Hamilton wrote: Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... You sure it wasn't a Desiro? The service hasn't started yet. Unless it was a crew-training run, I guess. Neil Definitely Southern colours so not an EMT desiro.. G |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On 30 Nov, 15:17, Gavin Hamilton
wrote: Neil Williams wrote: On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 16:50:11 +0000, Gavin Hamilton wrote: Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... You sure it wasn't a Desiro? *The service hasn't started yet. Unless it was a crew-training run, I guess. Neil Definitely Southern colours so not an EMT desiro.. G EMT aren't getting any Desiros - you presumably mean LM Desiro? Tony |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
In article ,
Gavin Hamilton wrote: Saw one stopping at Leighton Buzzard (north bound) on Thursday... You sure it wasn't a Desiro? The service hasn't started yet. Unless it was a crew-training run, I guess. Neil Definitely Southern colours so not an EMT desiro.. I can see the WCML at Hemel Hempstead from my window, and I see 377s going past on most weekdays. Presumably, they are training runs for the new service. -- David Wild using RISC OS on broadband www.davidhwild.me.uk ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
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Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
They seem to have got over the Wembley Central issue by making the
service pick up or set down only, according to direction. |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
On Dec 1, 9:09*pm, wrote:
They seem to have got over the Wembley Central issue by making the service pick up or set down only, according to direction. So going north, one can alight only at Wembley central? Can one board and alight at Harrow? So poor chap travelling from Wembley to MKC has to change, even though there is a perfectly good direct train that will go between the two? Will anything use Watford Junction platform 10 once the service is extended northwards? I'm guessing the Southern service will use the usual slow platforms 8 and 9? |
Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
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Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues
"Paul Scott" wrote in message ... Mr Thant wrote: So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls and the CJ starters that are in doubt. Just keeping an eye on this 'MoC' issue, ORR have now put all the correspondence between the various 'learned friends' up on their website. There is a surprising amount of debate about the meaning of the word 'call', for those interested it is some way down this page, at New Southern Railway Ltd, 27th SA: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1258 The ORR final decision on SN's MK service has now been published, approving the Clapham Junction starting services, but no change to the Wembley Central calls (set down pick up restrictions) as discussed previously. http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...7sa_declet.pdf Thanks to London Reconnections for the steer. Like them, if you read the report you may be left wondering at the effort expended in deciding what 'calls' really means... Paul S |
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