A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?

Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf

For further information the draft agreement he

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf

shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...

Paul S

On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK...

It looks like there are two separate issues:
- Service from Wembley Central to Milton Keynes is protected, and
Southern agree, but they don't like it.
- Service from Kensington Olympia to Milton Keynes is also protected,
unless the service "calls at or passes through" Clapham Junction.
Network Rail thinks this means trains starting at Clapham Junction
aren't allowed. Southern disagree, pointing out the next clause "or
starts or terminates beyond these stations".

So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls
and the CJ starters that are in doubt.

U

Mr Thant wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but
there are problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail
believe the WCML Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them
allowing a service that calls at Wembley Central and Kensington
Olympia en route from EC to MK...

It looks like there are two separate issues:
- Service from Wembley Central to Milton Keynes is protected, and
Southern agree, but they don't like it.
- Service from Kensington Olympia to Milton Keynes is also protected,
unless the service "calls at or passes through" Clapham Junction.
Network Rail thinks this means trains starting at Clapham Junction
aren't allowed. Southern disagree, pointing out the next clause "or
starts or terminates beyond these stations".

So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls
and the CJ starters that are in doubt.

Just keeping an eye on this 'MoC' issue, ORR have now put all the
correspondence between the various 'learned friends' up on their website.
There is a surprising amount of debate about the meaning of the word 'call',
for those interested it is some way down this page, at New Southern Railway
Ltd, 27th SA:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1258

Paul

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:33:29 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:
[18 quoted lines suppressed]

Just keeping an eye on this 'MoC' issue, ORR have now put all the
correspondence between the various 'learned friends' up on their website.
There is a surprising amount of debate about the meaning of the word 'call',
for those interested it is some way down this page, at New Southern Railway
Ltd, 27th SA:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1258

Paul

Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I
bookmarked it but obviously didn't.

Steve

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:11:11 +0000, Steve
wrote:

Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I
bookmarked it but obviously didn't.

Not to hand, though it's probably on www.londonmidland.com by now. I
recall noticing that, unlike the original plan, there is to be a peak
service, which will make it very useful indeed if I need to go to our
head office in Staines.

Indeed, the new timetable will make a number of things better for me
in the end - the 0711 off BLY starts there, so I can look forward to a
warm train to wait on rather than a freezing platform! (In exchange
it's a bit slower, but that shouldn't matter too much).

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:11:11 +0000, Steve
wrote:

Did anyone keep note of the timetable for this route, I thought I
bookmarked it but obviously didn't.

Not to hand, though it's probably on www.londonmidland.com by now. I
recall noticing that, unlike the original plan, there is to be a peak
service, which will make it very useful indeed if I need to go to our
head office in Staines.

Indeed, the new timetable will make a number of things better for me
in the end - the 0711 off BLY starts there, so I can look forward to a
warm train to wait on rather than a freezing platform! (In exchange
it's a bit slower, but that shouldn't matter too much).


http://londonmidland.go-cms.co.uk/ap..._GRIDS_WEB.pdf

Full info south of Shepherd's Bush is on the Southern site though Neil,
amazingly enough... :-)

http://www.southernrailway.com/routes.php?r=5&m=route

Unfortunately separate links for weekdays, Sat, Sun, other direction etc...

Paul

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...
Mr Thant wrote:

So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls
and the CJ starters that are in doubt.

Just keeping an eye on this 'MoC' issue, ORR have now put all the
correspondence between the various 'learned friends' up on their website.
There is a surprising amount of debate about the meaning of the word
'call', for those interested it is some way down this page, at New
Southern Railway Ltd, 27th SA:

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.1258


The ORR final decision on SN's MK service has now been published, approving
the Clapham Junction starting services, but no change to the Wembley Central
calls (set down pick up restrictions) as discussed previously.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...7sa_declet.pdf

Thanks to London Reconnections for the steer. Like them, if you read the
report you may be left wondering at the effort expended in deciding what
'calls' really means...

Paul S

On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?

Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf

For further information the draft agreement he

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf

shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...

Paul S

In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.

It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade. I'm pleased to see that sense is
prevailing and it is going back further north, although the change of
trains required to get to Gatwick Airport may somewhat limit it's
usefulness.

I am aware of the capacity constraints between Rugby and Birmingham
that may mean it's a non-starter, but does anyone out there have any
idea if Southern (or indeed Southern/LM, both being Govia companies)
have any plans to extend at either end? They could use both 350's and
377's for this service!

Rich

On Oct 8, 3:03*am, darkprince66
wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:





A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?

Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK....

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf

For further information the draft agreement he

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf

shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...

Paul S

In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.

It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade.

To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only
the odd run went to Brighton originally. It was really a Gatwick to
Rugby service.

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66
wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:





A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?

Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there
are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the
WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service
that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to
MK...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf

For further information the draft agreement he

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf

shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on
weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...

Paul S

In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.

It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade.

To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only
the odd run went to Brighton originally. It was really a Gatwick to
Rugby service.

And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a
Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes.