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Old October 7th 08, 02:54 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?

Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf

For further information the draft agreement he

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf

shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...

Paul S






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Old October 7th 08, 03:10 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK...


It looks like there are two separate issues:
- Service from Wembley Central to Milton Keynes is protected, and
Southern agree, but they don't like it.
- Service from Kensington Olympia to Milton Keynes is also protected,
unless the service "calls at or passes through" Clapham Junction.
Network Rail thinks this means trains starting at Clapham Junction
aren't allowed. Southern disagree, pointing out the next clause "or
starts or terminates beyond these stations".

So Croydon-KO-MK itself is definitely allowed - it's only the WC calls
and the CJ starters that are in doubt.

U
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Old October 8th 08, 02:03 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:
A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?

Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK...

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf

For further information the draft agreement he

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf

shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...

Paul S


In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.

It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade. I'm pleased to see that sense is
prevailing and it is going back further north, although the change of
trains required to get to Gatwick Airport may somewhat limit it's
usefulness.

I am aware of the capacity constraints between Rugby and Birmingham
that may mean it's a non-starter, but does anyone out there have any
idea if Southern (or indeed Southern/LM, both being Govia companies)
have any plans to extend at either end? They could use both 350's and
377's for this service!

Rich
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Old October 8th 08, 07:51 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On Oct 8, 3:03*am, darkprince66
wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:





A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?


Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to MK....


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf


For further information the draft agreement he


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf


shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...


Paul S


In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.

It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade.


To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only
the odd run went to Brighton originally. It was really a Gatwick to
Rugby service.
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Old October 8th 08, 02:15 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues


"MIG" wrote in message
...
On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66
wrote:
On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:





A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?


Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there
are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the
WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service
that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to
MK...


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf


For further information the draft agreement he


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf


shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on
weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...


Paul S


In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.

It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade.


To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only
the odd run went to Brighton originally. It was really a Gatwick to
Rugby service.

And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a
Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes.




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Old October 9th 08, 02:17 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On 8 Oct, 15:15, "4sub" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66
wrote:





On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:


A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?


Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there
are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the
WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service
that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to
MK...


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf


For further information the draft agreement he


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf


shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on
weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...


Paul S


In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.


It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade.


To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only
the odd run went to Brighton originally. *It was really a Gatwick to
Rugby service.

And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a
Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier
comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp
post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm...
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Old October 9th 08, 02:19 AM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On 8 Oct, 15:15, "4sub" wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message

...
On Oct 8, 3:03 am, darkprince66
wrote:





On 7 Oct, 15:54, "Paul Scott" wrote:


A bit of an issue for the upcoming WLL services?


Southern have applied to ORR for the proposed Dec 08 service, but there
are
problems because (if I'm reading correctly) Network Rail believe the
WCML
Moderation of Competition agreement prevents them allowing a service
that
calls at Wembley Central and Kensington Olympia en route from EC to
MK...


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_apfrm.pdf


For further information the draft agreement he


http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pd...27sa_dftag.pdf


shows all the intended permutations of SN services on the route on
weekdays,
Sat, and Sun, from Purley to Milton Keynes...


Paul S


In it's original form, as introduced by Connex, the Brighton-Rugby
service was a most useful innovation. At the time, ISTR that there was
much talk of the service being extended north to Birmingham, I believe
the plan was to take a North London Railways path north of
Northampton, preserving the half hourly frequency between that town
and Birmingham.


It was truncated to a Watford-Brighton service a couple of years after
it's introduction without ever getting it's northward extension,
another victim of the WCML upgrade.


To be fair, it did effectively get a southern extension, because only
the odd run went to Brighton originally. *It was really a Gatwick to
Rugby service.

And didn't those 319 units shift under the wires although it was normal on a
Monday morning to arrive at Rugby with no collector shoes. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I often found you were lucky to get a train on a Monday morning.
Connex had usually had to swipe them to cover shortage elsewhere... :-
(

Rich
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Old October 9th 08, 07:28 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Posts: 650
Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote:
Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier
comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp
post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm...


Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to
Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it
does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes-
Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush)

corridor, the WLL, and services in south london
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Old October 9th 08, 08:44 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

On 9 Oct, 20:28, Paul Weaver wrote:
On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote:

Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier
comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp
post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm...


Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to
Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it
does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes-Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush)

corridor, the WLL, and services in south london


I knew the moment I hit send that someone would..... ;-)

Rich
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Old October 9th 08, 08:51 PM posted to uk.railway,uk.transport.london
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Default Southern East Croydon to Milton Keynes service issues

Paul Weaver wrote:
On 9 Oct, 03:17, darkprince66 wrote:
Having looked at the track access agreement, I rescind my earlier
comment about it's usefulness. It stops at nearly every bloody lamp
post along the way! Tring to Balham? Hmmm...


Some people want to travel from Tring to Balham. If you want to go to
Gatwick you need to change anyway, may as well be at Clapham if it
does save time. This service will get people for the Milton Keynes-
Harrow corridor, the Bletchley - Underground (at Shepherds Bush)

corridor, the WLL, and services in south london


Hopefully there should be enough Central Line capacity to cope with pax
using Shepherds Bush as a western version of Stratford...

Paul S




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