On Oct 22, 8:20*am, MIG wrote:
On Oct 22, 1:13*am, wrote:

In article
,

(John B) wrote:
I hate bendies because they are just too long to mix with other
traffic.

Based on what evidence?

Trying to get along Euston Road from King's Cross station to turn left
into Judd Street before and after the 73 became a bendy route. Observation
of the Cambridge Circus junction.

And experience of a whole load of other blocked junctions, blocked
crossings and uncomfortable journeys.

Its a fair point, but how is that going to improve when they have to
run 40% more buses to get even vaguely the same capacity on the
routes?

Well the comparison point is the non-bendy routes that people use,
which generally are more pleasant. The mistake is to think that the
bendy routes would suddenly be more pleasant if only they were
converted to double decker, which as you say, is not the case.

This to me is the pertinent point that always seems to get lost in the
noise of the London Rags.

The majority of REGULAR commuters who use the bendy routes (a group
that includes my Missus who uses the 38) are, in my experience, more
than happy with them and dreading the inevitable change. They may not
be perfect but they are decidedly better than the full double deckers
that used to thunder past the bus stops.

Obviously the plural of "anecdote" is not "data" but, as the last
Travelwatch piece on the matter pointed out, actually speaking to
those who use the services regularly wouldn't be a bad place to start
if you're trying to get a fair assessment of their success (or
failure).

Quite frankly I tend to find (not here, but in general) that a lot of
the criticism the bendies get comes from people who've never even been
on one (let alone used them regularly), and whose vision of how London
buses should be involves Butler driving a Routemaster with Blakey
hanging off the back.

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 07:13:24PM -0500, wrote:

Trying to get along Euston Road from King's Cross station to turn left
into Judd Street before and after the 73 became a bendy route. Observation
of the Cambridge Circus junction.

To be fair, the current problems at Cambridge Circus are caused by road
works further up Charing Cross Road.

It does strike me as a bit daft, however, that eastbound buses still
turn to go up Charing Cross Road and past Centre Point, instead of just
skipping a couple of stops and going straight up Shaftesbury Avenue to
New Oxford Street.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

All principles of gravity are negated by fear
-- Cartoon Law V

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 07:13:24PM -0500,
wrote:

Trying to get along Euston Road from King's Cross station to turn
left into Judd Street before and after the 73 became a bendy
route. Observation of the Cambridge Circus junction.

To be fair, the current problems at Cambridge Circus are caused by road
works further up Charing Cross Road.

It does strike me as a bit daft, however, that eastbound buses still
turn to go up Charing Cross Road and past Centre Point, instead of just
skipping a couple of stops and going straight up Shaftesbury Avenue to
New Oxford Street.

a) The buses causing the problems are going in the opposite direction.
b) The problem started before the road works which I actually thought were
past their worst,

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 04:36:11PM -0700, John B wrote:
On Oct 22, 12:23=A0am, wrote:
I hate bendies because they are just too long to mix with other traffic.
Based on what evidence?

My evidence would be taking a look at traffic flows at Piccadilly
Circus, along the western half of Shaftesbury Avenue, and at the
junction of Bloomsbury Street and New Oxford Street.

In particular, note the difficulty that bendy buses have actually
getting into the junction at Picadilly Circus from Picadilly itself,
how much road space they need to turn left from Regent Street onto
Picadilly, and how New Oxford Street snarls up because bendy buses
turning onto it from Bloomsbury Street so often have the unpalatable
choice of either just sitting there and not making the turn, or stopping
so as to block the entire junction.

Hope that helps.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

Irregular English:
ladies glow; gentlemen perspire; brutes, oafs and athletes sweat

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 04:36:11PM -0700, John B wrote:
On Oct 22, 12:23=A0am, wrote:
I hate bendies because they are just too long to mix with other
traffic.
Based on what evidence?

My evidence would be taking a look at traffic flows at Piccadilly
Circus, along the western half of Shaftesbury Avenue, and at the
junction of Bloomsbury Street and New Oxford Street.

In particular, note the difficulty that bendy buses have actually
getting into the junction at Picadilly Circus from Picadilly itself,
how much road space they need to turn left from Regent Street onto
Picadilly, and how New Oxford Street snarls up because bendy buses
turning onto it from Bloomsbury Street so often have the unpalatable
choice of either just sitting there and not making the turn, or stopping
so as to block the entire junction.

Hope that helps.

Totally agree on Bloomsbury Street/New Oxford Street.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

wrote:
In article


Those figures read dangerous to me. How many bendies are there and how
many accidents involving other buses are there, and how many of them are
there?


339 in intensive daily service, many 24 hours a day, so as John points
out, given the tiny number of serious incidents there's a large margin
for error - one cyclist killed by a bendy tomorrow would skew the
figures enormously, which in itself suggest they aren't dangerous.

The death toll of cyclists rose last year to 19, incidentally. Lorries
seem to be the big killers. According to TfL:

"Every year, more than half of all cyclist deaths on London's roads
follow a collision with a goods vehicle."

"In 2006, nine of the 19 cyclists who died on London's roads were
involved in a collision with a goods vehicle. Provisional data from the
Metropolitan Police Service for 2007 indicates that nine out of the 16
cyclists who died on London's roads last year were involved in a
collision with a goods vehicle."

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...hive/7695.aspx

Which is more dangerous, a type of vehicle that kills nearly ten
cyclists a year or one that hasn't killed anyone in six years?

The bendy replacement plans currently available*, apart from being
expensive, result in far more buses on the street. I don't think the
figures of accidents per million miles are adjusted for bus capacity, in
which case the replacements are actually likely to have more accidents
purely because of the increased mileage (along with using more fuel and
employing more drivers and generally costing more to operate).

The main point is still 'who told Boris they squished cyclists, or did
he just make it up?'.

Tom

* 3 for 2 replacement with 12m single deckers on the 507/521 Red Arrows,
7 for 5 replacement with double deckers on the 38. One of the Red Arrow
routes would have something insane like a bus timetabled every 120
seconds to keep capacity up. I'm half-convinced they're drawing up the
plans to show Boris his ideas are wrong, in a Serpell Report kind of way.

On 22 Oct, 10:56, Tom Barry wrote:
wrote:
In article

Those figures read dangerous to me. How many bendies are there and how
many accidents involving other buses are there, and how many of them are
there?

339 in intensive daily service, many 24 hours a day, so as John points
out, given the tiny number of serious incidents there's a large margin
for error - one cyclist killed by a bendy tomorrow would skew the
figures enormously, which in itself suggest they aren't dangerous.

The death toll of cyclists rose last year to 19, incidentally. *Lorries
seem to be the big killers. *According to TfL:

"Every year, more than half of all cyclist deaths on London's roads
follow a collision with a goods vehicle."

"In 2006, nine of the 19 cyclists who died on London's roads were
involved in a collision with a goods vehicle. Provisional data from the
Metropolitan Police Service for 2007 indicates that nine out of the 16
cyclists who died on London's roads last year were involved in a
collision with a goods vehicle."

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...hive/7695.aspx

Which is more dangerous, a type of vehicle that kills nearly ten
cyclists a year or one that hasn't killed anyone in six years?

The bendy replacement plans currently available*, apart from being
expensive, result in far more buses on the street. *I don't think the
figures of accidents per million miles are adjusted for bus capacity, in
which case the replacements are actually likely to have more accidents
purely because of the increased mileage (along with using more fuel and
employing more drivers and generally costing more to operate).

The main point is still 'who told Boris they squished cyclists, or did
he just make it up?'.

The vehicle that collides isn't necessarily the one that caused the
collision. Maybe overtaking bendys puts cyclists in the path of
lorries. Maybe people who have to walk in the middle of the road when
the crossing is blocked by a bendy get hit by a motorbike.

On Oct 22, 11:47 am, MIG wrote:
The vehicle that collides isn't necessarily the one that caused the
collision. Maybe overtaking bendys puts cyclists in the path of
lorries. Maybe people who have to walk in the middle of the road when
the crossing is blocked by a bendy get hit by a motorbike.

If a cyclist is dumb enough to get wiped out by a bendy bus they'd
probably have been squished by an HGV sooner or later anyway. The
golden rule of cycling is you do not pass any sort of vehicle on the
inside near a left turn.

B2003

On 22 Oct, 12:10, Boltar wrote:
On Oct 22, 11:47 am, MIG wrote:

The vehicle that collides isn't necessarily the one that caused the
collision. *Maybe overtaking bendys puts cyclists in the path of
lorries. *Maybe people who have to walk in the middle of the road when
the crossing is blocked by a bendy get hit by a motorbike.

If a cyclist is dumb enough to get wiped out by a bendy bus they'd
probably have been squished by an HGV sooner or later anyway. The
golden rule of cycling is you do not pass any sort of vehicle on the
inside near a left turn.

B2003

I didn't mention the inside or left turns.

On 22 Oct, 12:10, Boltar wrote:
If a cyclist is dumb enough to get wiped out by a bendy bus they'd
probably have been squished by an HGV sooner or later anyway. The
golden rule of cycling is you do not pass any sort of vehicle on the
inside near a left turn.

All very nice in theory, until the poor judgement, stupidity, mistake
or incompetence of another road user puts them in that situation. Or
the HGV chooses to stop alongside them and then decides to turn left.
Or the HGV pulls out in front of them. Etc etc.

(Having said that the standard of cycling in London is not good, but
is still much better than that of most drivers).