On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 05:22:29AM -0700, John B wrote:
On Oct 22, 12:38=A0pm, David Cantrell wrote:
One would think that the same would apply at Victoria then, but trains
there pretty much always leave from the same platform every day.
...as also happens on the commuter platforms at Euston. The general
pattern in London termini seems to be that commuter trains leave from
the same platform whilst intercity trains vary; I'm not sure why this
is.

The longer distance trains from Victoria are also predictable. Not to
quite the same extent as the local stoppers, but still very much
predictable.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Seven o'clock in the morning is something that
happens to those less fortunate than me

On Oct 22, 2:17 pm, Robert wrote:
On 2008-10-22 12:24:43 +0100, Neil Williams said:

On 22 Oct, 08:59, The Real Doctor wrote:

Is there any reason at all, except incompetence, why British railways
could not do the same?

German stations usually have more platforms than UK ones - but Euston
is a bit of an exception, as it could quite happily work with fewer
than the 17 it has.

Notably, the commuter operation practically never has platform
alterations, and the diagrammed platforms are displayed well in
advance. This allows one to go to the platform at leisure and spread
along it ready for the train to arrive. Far better.

Neil

For the last three years I have lived and worked in Munich and I can
confirm that the number of platforms available in the Hauptbahnhof (the
2 'wing' stations as well as the main hall) means that long distance
trains are ready for boarding for up to 30 minutes before departure.
(Apart from, of course, those that work to and from Salzburg and
reverse in the Hbf). At Muenchen-Pasing however there is one island
platform for the trains to and from both the Garmisch-Partenkirchen /
Innsbrück and to Buchloe / Kempten / Oberstdorf routes. Any delay and
trains have to be switched around - as this is an island the change is
not difficult, but you should listen to the complaints!

At Paddington in the peaks, because of the limited number of platforms
the longer distance trains have to turn round in about 15 to 25
minutes, or less if an arriving train is delayed. Effectively only
platforms 1 to 10 are available of which 6 and 7 are reserved for the
Heathrow Express, i.e. there are only 8 usable platforms. Muenchen Hbf
has more than 3 times as many.

So to reach German levels of boarding time the number of trains leaving
any platform in a given period has to be reduced. However to maintain
the same capacity, some other work has to be done. Either:

a) the trains, and therefore the platforms, have to be lengthened -
possibly also further down the line
b) if the trains are not lengthened then the number of platforms has to
be increased. As the station and its roof is listed this means that
station can only be widened.

or c) put in some underground platforms and call it Crossrail.
Tim

Boltar wrote:
On Oct 21, 1:33 pm, John B wrote:
was amused by the 'normals' getting off saying 'I like these new

"Normals"?

If you have to ask ......

On 2008-10-23 17:08:42 +0100, TimB said:

On Oct 22, 2:17 pm, Robert wrote:
On 2008-10-22 12:24:43 +0100, Neil Williams said:

On 22 Oct, 08:59, The Real Doctor wrote:

Is there any reason at all, except incompetence, why British railways
could not do the same?

German stations usually have more platforms than UK ones - but Euston
is a bit of an exception, as it could quite happily work with fewer
than the 17 it has.

Notably, the commuter operation practically never has platform
alterations, and the diagrammed platforms are displayed well in
advance. This allows one to go to the platform at leisure and spread
along it ready for the train to arrive. Far better.

Neil

For the last three years I have lived and worked in Munich and I can
confirm that the number of platforms available in the Hauptbahnhof (the
2 'wing' stations as well as the main hall) means that long distance
trains are ready for boarding for up to 30 minutes before departure.
(Apart from, of course, those that work to and from Salzburg and
reverse in the Hbf). At Muenchen-Pasing however there is one island
platform for the trains to and from both the Garmisch-Partenkirchen /
Innsbrück and to Buchloe / Kempten / Oberstdorf routes. Any delay and
trains have to be switched around - as this is an island the change is
not difficult, but you should listen to the complaints!

At Paddington in the peaks, because of the limited number of platforms
the longer distance trains have to turn round in about 15 to 25
minutes, or less if an arriving train is delayed. Effectively only
platforms 1 to 10 are available of which 6 and 7 are reserved for the
Heathrow Express, i.e. there are only 8 usable platforms. Muenchen Hbf
has more than 3 times as many.

So to reach German levels of boarding time the number of trains leaving
any platform in a given period has to be reduced. However to maintain
the same capacity, some other work has to be done. Either:

a) the trains, and therefore the platforms, have to be lengthened -
possibly also further down the line
b) if the trains are not lengthened then the number of platforms has to
be increased. As the station and its roof is listed this means that
station can only be widened.

or c) put in some underground platforms and call it Crossrail.
Tim

Absolutely, it would help a little bit more if Heathrow Express also
went underground. The reason I didn't mention Crossrail was that
earlier in the thread there was a suggestion that the inability to
offer consistent platform allocation and longer boarding times was
partly due to incompetence. I was trying to show that this was not
necessarily the case.

Anyway, if we assume that the traffic using Platforms 11 to 14 at
Paddington is transferred to Crossrail and the platforms could be
converted to accommodate longer trains that still gives a total of only
14 platforms compared to the 36 surface platforms in Munich. There is
also an underground island platform on the S-Bahn which pumps out 28 to
30 trains per hour in each direction in the peaks for the local
traffic; the surface platforms really are used for the outer-suburban
and long distance trains only.

So even with 14 full length platforms at Paddington it will be
difficult to match German long distance dwell times. And Munich has a
population of only 1.35 million compared to London's 10 million.

I think we'll still have to rush....
--
Robert

On 23 Oct, 20:21, Robert wrote:

On 2008-10-23 17:08:42 +0100, TimB said:

(snip)

For the last three years I have lived and worked in Munich and I can
confirm that the number of platforms available in the Hauptbahnhof (the
2 'wing' stations as well as the main hall) means that long distance
trains are ready for boarding for up to 30 minutes before departure.
(Apart from, of course, those that work to and from Salzburg and
reverse in the Hbf). At Muenchen-Pasing however there is one island
platform for the trains to and from both the Garmisch-Partenkirchen /
Innsbrück and to Buchloe / Kempten / Oberstdorf routes. Any delay and
trains have to be switched around - as this is an island the change is
not difficult, but you should listen to the complaints!

At Paddington in the peaks, because of the limited number of platforms
the longer distance trains have to turn round in about 15 to 25
minutes, or less if an arriving train is delayed. Effectively only
platforms 1 to 10 are available of which 6 and 7 are reserved for the
Heathrow Express, i.e. there are only 8 usable platforms. Muenchen Hbf
has more than 3 times as many.

So to reach German levels of boarding time the number of trains leaving
any platform in a given period has to be reduced. However to maintain
the same capacity, some other work has to be done. Either:

a) the trains, and therefore the platforms, have to be lengthened -
possibly also further down the line
b) if the trains are not lengthened then the number of platforms has to
be increased. As the station and its roof is listed this means that
station can only be widened.

or c) put in some underground platforms and call it Crossrail.
* Tim

Absolutely, it would help a little bit more if Heathrow Express also
went underground. *The reason I didn't mention Crossrail was that
earlier in the thread there was a suggestion that the inability to
offer consistent platform allocation and longer boarding times was
partly due to incompetence. I was trying to show that this was not
necessarily the case.

Anyway, if we assume that the traffic using Platforms 11 to 14 at
Paddington is transferred to Crossrail and the platforms could be
converted to accommodate longer trains that still gives a total of only
14 platforms compared to the 36 surface platforms in Munich. There is
also an underground island platform on the S-Bahn which pumps out 28 to
30 trains per hour in each direction in the peaks for the local
traffic; the surface platforms really are used for the outer-suburban
and long distance trains only.

So even with 14 full length platforms at Paddington it will be
difficult to match German long distance dwell times. And Munich has a
population of only 1.35 million compared to London's 10 million.

I think we'll still have to rush....


I'm not really up to date with this - was there not some possibility
(should it actually really happen) that Crossrail might eat the
Heathrow Express service altogether (longer journey times offset by
the fact that Crossrail doesn't stop at Paddington)? I take it as a
given that Crossrail would eat up Heathrow Connect.

On 2008-10-23 21:17:43 +0100, Mizter T said:


On 23 Oct, 20:21, Robert wrote:

On 2008-10-23 17:08:42 +0100, TimB said:

(snip)

For the last three years I have lived and worked in Munich and I can
confirm that the number of platforms available in the Hauptbahnhof (th
e
2 'wing' stations as well as the main hall) means that long distance
trains are ready for boarding for up to 30 minutes before departure.
(Apart from, of course, those that work to and from Salzburg and
reverse in the Hbf). At Muenchen-Pasing however there is one island
platform for the trains to and from both the Garmisch-Partenkirchen /
Innsbrück and to Buchloe / Kempten / Oberstdorf routes. Any delay an
d
trains have to be switched around - as this is an island the change is
not difficult, but you should listen to the complaints!

At Paddington in the peaks, because of the limited number of platforms
the longer distance trains have to turn round in about 15 to 25
minutes, or less if an arriving train is delayed. Effectively only
platforms 1 to 10 are available of which 6 and 7 are reserved for the
Heathrow Express, i.e. there are only 8 usable platforms. Muenchen Hbf
has more than 3 times as many.

So to reach German levels of boarding time the number of trains leavin
g
any platform in a given period has to be reduced. However to maintain
the same capacity, some other work has to be done. Either:

a) the trains, and therefore the platforms, have to be lengthened -
possibly also further down the line
b) if the trains are not lengthened then the number of platforms has t
o
be increased. As the station and its roof is listed this means that
station can only be widened.

or c) put in some underground platforms and call it Crossrail.
* Tim

Absolutely, it would help a little bit more if Heathrow Express also
went underground. *The reason I didn't mention Crossrail was that
earlier in the thread there was a suggestion that the inability to
offer consistent platform allocation and longer boarding times was
partly due to incompetence. I was trying to show that this was not
necessarily the case.

Anyway, if we assume that the traffic using Platforms 11 to 14 at
Paddington is transferred to Crossrail and the platforms could be
converted to accommodate longer trains that still gives a total of only
14 platforms compared to the 36 surface platforms in Munich. There is
also an underground island platform on the S-Bahn which pumps out 28 to
30 trains per hour in each direction in the peaks for the local
traffic; the surface platforms really are used for the outer-suburban
and long distance trains only.

So even with 14 full length platforms at Paddington it will be
difficult to match German long distance dwell times. And Munich has a
population of only 1.35 million compared to London's 10 million.

I think we'll still have to rush....


I'm not really up to date with this - was there not some possibility
(should it actually really happen) that Crossrail might eat the
Heathrow Express service altogether (longer journey times offset by
the fact that Crossrail doesn't stop at Paddington)? I take it as a
given that Crossrail would eat up Heathrow Connect.

I really don't know. I, also, have always assumed that Crossrail would
take over Heathrow Connect and the rump of the local services to Slough
as well as those to Maidenhead (and Reading?). But what happens to the
Greenford service? If it reverts to being a shuttle will it turn round
at Ealing Broadway or in the old milk dock at West Ealing?
--
Robert

I really don't know. I, also, have always assumed that Crossrail would
take over Heathrow Connect and the rump of the local services to Slough as
well as those to Maidenhead (and Reading?). But what happens to the
Greenford service? If it reverts to being a shuttle will it turn round at
Ealing Broadway or in the old milk dock at West Ealing?
--
Robert


West Ealing apparently

http://www.ealing.gov.uk/services/tr...014508995.html

and item 21.17 (page 4) in
http://billdocuments.crossrail.co.uk...tEalingStn.pdf

Robert wrote:

.......But what
happens to the Greenford service? If it reverts to being a shuttle
will it turn round at Ealing Broadway or in the old milk dock at West
Ealing?

It does become a shuttle into a new bay platform at West Ealing, there's
stacks of detail on the Crossrail information website:

http://tinyurl.com/65r3r9

pp 7/8 refers, very large file though unfortunately.

HTH

Paul S

On 2008-10-23 21:58:52 +0100, "Paul Scott"
said:

Robert wrote:

.......But what
happens to the Greenford service? If it reverts to being a shuttle
will it turn round at Ealing Broadway or in the old milk dock at West
Ealing?

It does become a shuttle into a new bay platform at West Ealing, there's
stacks of detail on the Crossrail information website:

http://tinyurl.com/65r3r9

pp 7/8 refers, very large file though unfortunately.

HTH

Paul S

Thanks for the information. I'll read it tomorrow...
--
Robert

On Oct 23, 4:56*pm, David Cantrell wrote:
One would think that the same would apply at Victoria then, but trains
there pretty much always leave from the same platform every day.
...as also happens on the commuter platforms at Euston. The general
pattern in London termini seems to be that commuter trains leave from
the same platform whilst intercity trains vary; I'm not sure why this
is.

The longer distance trains from Victoria are also predictable. *Not to
quite the same extent as the local stoppers, but still very much
predictable.

Aye, but the longest-distance Victoria trains are comparable in
journey time to the longest-distance London Midland trains ex-Euston,
not VWC.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org