National Express are looking to close their Dot2Dot airport transfer service
by the first quarter of next year, unless a buyer can be found. The service
has delivered a loss of £5m since inception - a worse than expected
performance for this 'start up' venture.

Dot2Dot runs a fleet of high-spec'd Mercedes and VW mini-buses, ferrying
tourists and business folk between Heathrow and central London hotels/Canary
Wharf, on a pre-booked basis. Fares were typically circa £20 one way (more
to Docklands), although I note there is now a £16 special offer on their web
site, advertised as under-cutting HEX.

This always struck me as being a (small) niche market. Those with generous
expense accounts ((prepare for backlash!)) no doubt continue to find black
cabs or HEX more convenient and flexible, whilst the pool of leisure
travellers willing to stump up £80 for a group of four must be somewhat
limited.

I suspect, in hindsight, NatEx are glad they got out of GatEx when they did,
with Southern already reporting that demand is softening. Indeed, the
enhanced Brighton main line service (from December) now looks somewhat
ill-timed.

Chris

"Chris Read" wrote in message
...
National Express are looking to close their Dot2Dot airport transfer
service by the first quarter of next year, unless a buyer can be found.
The service has delivered a loss of £5m since inception - a worse than
expected performance for this 'start up' venture.

Dot2Dot runs a fleet of high-spec'd Mercedes and VW mini-buses, ferrying
tourists and business folk between Heathrow and central London
hotels/Canary Wharf, on a pre-booked basis. Fares were typically circa £20
one way (more to Docklands), although I note there is now a £16 special
offer on their web site, advertised as under-cutting HEX.

Thats ok, but at least you know with the HeX its only 15 min's

This always struck me as being a (small) niche market. Those with generous
expense accounts ((prepare for backlash!)) no doubt continue to find
black cabs or HEX more convenient and flexible, whilst the pool of leisure
travellers willing to stump up £80 for a group of four must be somewhat
limited.

We use AdLee for that sort of thing, and best of all if you have to beat the
traffic you can go on the back of a bike! Most of the people I know who do a
transfer will use a black cab, or public transport depending who they are
and where there going.


I suspect, in hindsight, NatEx are glad they got out of GatEx when they
did, with Southern already reporting that demand is softening. Indeed, the
enhanced Brighton main line service (from December) now looks somewhat
ill-timed.

True, I don't every remember any journeys that where *very* busy. From time
to time we have to use the Stansted express and every one has said its the
most god awful airport rail service they have been on. Dirty old 317's, slow
journey times no air con and heating so hot in some cars you could cook!

On 25 Oct, 11:33, "Chris Read" wrote:
National Express are looking to close their Dot2Dot airport transfer service
by the first quarter of next year, unless a buyer can be found. The service
has delivered a loss of £5m since inception - a worse than expected
performance for this 'start up' venture.

Dot2Dot runs a fleet of high-spec'd Mercedes and VW mini-buses, ferrying
tourists and business folk between Heathrow and central London hotels/Canary
Wharf, on a pre-booked basis. Fares were typically circa £20 one way (more
to Docklands), although I note there is now a £16 special offer on their web
site, advertised as under-cutting HEX.

This always struck me as being a (small) niche market. Those with generous
expense accounts ((prepare for backlash!)) no doubt continue to find black
cabs or HEX more convenient and flexible, whilst the pool of leisure
travellers willing to stump up £80 for a group of four must be somewhat
limited.


A small point about the detail - under the previous undiscounted price
scheme £20 would be the maximum price for a single journey, under the
current special offer that maximum has been reduced to £16.

NX made a big fuss about their new Dot2Dot service at the time of
their rebranding, they were trying to portray an image of being an
innovative and fresh thinking 'total transport' company. I have to say
I wasn't convinced by the Dot2Dot proposition, but maybe that just
shows I'm unimaginative and stuck in an old mindset.

For those not in the know, Dot2Dot is a sort of posh ride-sharing
arrangement - they say "Sharing your ride will barely slow you down:
We guarantee no more than three other pick-ups or drop-offs - all
within your area - before we take you to your destination." It
provides a service between Heathrow and central-ish London & Canary
Wharf - the service area map is below:
http://www.dot2.com/Pages/Popups/AreasWeServe.aspx

Here's an independent website's information page on the dot2dot
service (the prices shown are the old ones):
http://www.londontoolkit.com/travel/...telink_bus.htm


On hearing about this new service I thought the market for dot2dot
would essentially be foreign travellers arriving at Heathrow and
returning their from their hotel, rather than people working or living
in central London (though I note the recent link up with the rail side
of NX, with dot2dot pick-ups/drop-offs offered at KX/St. P and
Liverpool Street stations). I'd think they just haven't managed to
corner this market - arriving business travellers are still travelling
into town by HEx, Tube, black cab or are being picked up by a
chauffeured car service, and arriving tourists just haven't taken to
it, whether because of the price or simply because the possibility
hasn't permeated their conciousness.

Plus I don't think dot2dot really compares that well with a taxi from
a central London hotel to Heathrow, especially when there's a small
group of travellers such as a family - both price-wise, obviously, but
also in terms in convenience, as the dot2dot service needs to be pre-
booked whilst the taxi will be out there on the street.


I suspect, in hindsight, NatEx are glad they got out of GatEx when they did,
with Southern already reporting that demand is softening. Indeed, the
enhanced Brighton main line service (from December) now looks somewhat
ill-timed.


Southern are reporting demand is softening on GatEx, or on all their
services?

If it's the former, then surely extending even-emptier GatEx services
to Brighton during the peaks is a better use of resources than running
the service as is. Of course if demand for London to Brighton journeys
is also going to drop, then perhaps the extra capacity wouldn't be
needed. We shall see what happens - perhaps there'll be more demand
for London commuting from the south coast as jobs in Brighton dry up
and people find alternative work in London instead.

In message
, at
06:53:09 on Sun, 26 Oct 2008, Mizter T remarked:
I have to say I wasn't convinced by the Dot2Dot proposition, but maybe
that just shows I'm unimaginative and stuck in an old mindset.

I saw one of their vans near Paddington very soon after it was launched.
Then a couple of weeks ago I saw one of their posters somewhere (maybe
at KX) and thought "hmm I've not seen any promotional material for this
*at all*, I wonder how they get any customers".
--
Roland Perry

On 25 Oct, 11:33, "Chris Read" wrote:

I suspect, in hindsight, NatEx are glad they got out of GatEx when they did,
with Southern already reporting that demand is softening. Indeed, the
enhanced Brighton main line service (from December) now looks somewhat
ill-timed.


Well, if GatEx patronage is indeed declining, then Brighton line
passengers can fill the empty seats. If Gatwick continues to lose the
business of full service airlines and replace them with low cost
carriers, its passengers are more likely to choose budget options of
getting to the airport. If decline continues, then maybe the GatEx
will extend to Brighton for the rest of the day, not just peak hours.

In message
, at
15:38:19 on Sun, 26 Oct 2008, Richard Adamfi
remarked:
I suspect, in hindsight, NatEx are glad they got out of GatEx when they did,
with Southern already reporting that demand is softening. Indeed, the
enhanced Brighton main line service (from December) now looks somewhat
ill-timed.

Well, if GatEx patronage is indeed declining, then Brighton line
passengers can fill the empty seats. If Gatwick continues to lose the
business of full service airlines and replace them with low cost
carriers, its passengers are more likely to choose budget options of
getting to the airport. If decline continues, then maybe the GatEx
will extend to Brighton for the rest of the day, not just peak hours.

The "downturn" at Gatwick is a combination of full-fare airlines
switching to Heathrow [1] as a result of the Open Skies deal, and XL
going broke. But European scheduled traffic (Easyjet, perhaps) was up
9%, giving a total effect of -7% for the month of September (compared to
September last year).

[1] Gatwick north Atlantic traffic down 44%
--
Roland Perry

In uk.railway Roland Perry wrote:
I saw one of their vans near Paddington very soon after it was launched.
Then a couple of weeks ago I saw one of their posters somewhere (maybe
at KX) and thought "hmm I've not seen any promotional material for this
*at all*, I wonder how they get any customers".

I got a flier with my tickets ordered from NXEC.

I can see there might be a niche: those who want to get to Heathrow from
Docklands or the City without having to get to Paddington first. But I
don't know what the journey time is like. dot2dot does seem to be
effectively a black cab that's just enough of a bus to allow it to use bus
lanes.

But it fails dismally if there are lots of you - much cheaper to get a black
cab.

[plays with the website]

It seems to be telling me that I need to be picked up at Canary Wharf at the
earliest 0600 to check in T5 at 0800 for a European flight at 1000. They
specify a 15 minute window to collect you, but you can't choose this at
booking. If they collect at the beginning of the window even the Piccadilly
line would be quicker!

Plus plenty of business travellers probably use LCY (+Continental
connections) rather than LHR.

Theo

Theo Markettos wrote:

I can see there might be a niche: those who want to get to Heathrow from
Docklands or the City without having to get to Paddington first. But I
don't know what the journey time is like. dot2dot does seem to be
effectively a black cab that's just enough of a bus to allow it to use bus
lanes.


I sampled dot2dot when I went to Germany recently, travelling from
Liverpool Street Station at around 1pm.

On the outward journey, I was the only passenger (and it transpired that
the driver had been waiting at Finsbury Square for about 15 minutes as
he was running early!) and it took just 58 minutes to get there, even
with a traffic jam by St Paul's Cathedral holding us up.

On the return journey I wasn't so lucky. As well as me (from T5), the
Driver had a number of other passengers to pick up from T4, with drop
offs at the Union Jack Club (Waterloo East), Northumberland Avenue, The
Thistle Euston, and me at Liverpool Street.

If memory serves, that ended up taking the best part of two hours,
possibly more, thanks to roadworks and traffic jams en route.

Where dot2dot beat cabs is on luggage space. Thanks to underfloor
luggage stowage, each passenger can take one item of hand luggage and
two suitcases free, with extra bags being charged at £3 one way, £5
return. Try fitting enough luggage for four people for a week in a
taxi...It doesn't work!

Cheers,

Barry

Mizter T wrote:
On 25 Oct, 11:33, "Chris Read" wrote:

National Express are looking to close their Dot2Dot airport transfer service
by the first quarter of next year, unless a buyer can be found. The service
has delivered a loss of £5m since inception - a worse than expected
performance for this 'start up' venture.

Dot2Dot runs a fleet of high-spec'd Mercedes and VW mini-buses, ferrying
tourists and business folk between Heathrow and central London hotels/Canary
Wharf, on a pre-booked basis. Fares were typically circa £20 one way (more
to Docklands), although I note there is now a £16 special offer on their web
site, advertised as under-cutting HEX.

This always struck me as being a (small) niche market. Those with generous
expense accounts ((prepare for backlash!)) no doubt continue to find black
cabs or HEX more convenient and flexible, whilst the pool of leisure
travellers willing to stump up £80 for a group of four must be somewhat
limited.



I would have thought there's a big enough market between those two to make
it worthwhile. I agree that it's not cost-effective for family groups, but
there's a substantial number of business travellers who can claim back the
full cost of international air or rail travel, but are on fixed daily rates
for everything else. They want something like a cab, but can't afford it.

However, whatever I think, it seems NX haven't found this market. I agree with
what others have said that the publicity wasn't great. I pass through Kings
Cross almost every day and travel on NX trains either in or out of there.
There was a lot of publicity *about* dot2dot, but it didn't do a good job
of telling me what it was. I could see that it involved a minibus, and it
was run by national express, and it stopped at Kings Cross. When I finally did
pick up that it was a shared ride service to Heathrow, I kicked myself that
I hadn't used it on the two occasions during the preceding months when
it could have been useful.


NX made a big fuss about their new Dot2Dot service at the time of
their rebranding, they were trying to portray an image of being an
innovative and fresh thinking 'total transport' company. I have to say
I wasn't convinced by the Dot2Dot proposition, but maybe that just
shows I'm unimaginative and stuck in an old mindset.


Shared ride services seem very popular at US airports, and there are usually
competing providers except at airports like Washington Dulles where the airport
does an exclusive deal with a single operator. They're competing with cabs,
car hire and (in a small number of cases) public transport, and definitely
going for the business traveller in most places I have seen them. I've
found them variable in quality, but generally usable. It's interesting
that they haven't taken off here.

"Kevin Ashley" wrote:
Shared ride services seem very popular at US airports, and there are
usually
competing providers except at airports like Washington Dulles where the
airport
does an exclusive deal with a single operator. They're competing with
cabs,
car hire and (in a small number of cases) public transport, and definitely
going for the business traveller in most places I have seen them.

Every major Eurpoean resort has them for the tourists - 'resorthopper' etc;
but they are mostly a shoestring organisation that subcontrcats to coach,
minibus and taxi companies as needed - plus they get tie-ups with booking
companies 'travelrepublic' etc.

Natex have applied the same overprovision of service as their clunky
websites, and little flexibility for the (rather obvious) swings in demand,
combined with the inherent unpredictability of the travel world. Nimble they
ain't.

Someone should make them write out 100 times:
"cheap and cheerful, please, if we wanted to overpay, we'd have taken a
black cab."
--

Andrew