"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

D A Stocks

On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.


It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:44:49 -0800 (PST), Chris
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

What happens if the Oyster card is "touched out" near enough
immediately at the same station ?

On 24 Dec, 01:06, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:44:49 -0800 (PST), Chris

(snip)

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

What happens if the Oyster card is "touched out" near enough
immediately at the same station ?


Eh? Do you mean what happens if the Oyster card is 'touched' a second
time shortly after the first 'touch'?
(This 'touching' terminology might be good for issuing basic usage
instructions, but it becomes ever more absurd when used in a more
advanced manner to describe various scenarios!)

In essence, if one is *leaving* via a ticket gate then the first touch
will be regarded by the system as 'touching out', and the system will
presume one did not touch-in as one should and will thus levy the
punitive charge (£4, apart from London termini stations where it is
£5, and Heathrow where it will apparently be £8).

If one were to 'touch' on a standalone Oyster reader, for example by a
manual gate, then if the card has not been 'touched-in' within the
past 2 1/2 hours the system will presume that one is starting a new
journey and will debit the full £4/£5/£8 'entry charge' - the concept
being that the appropriate amount is refunded back to one's card when
one completes the journey and touches-out so one will have paid the
correct fare.

If one was to validate on a standalone reader for the first then even
if they were ending their journey they would end up paying the
'penalty' charge because they will not touch-out in the next 2 1/2
hours - this is a so-called "unresolved journey" - and this would
still occur if one were to then almost immediately (or indeed within
the next 2 1/2 hours) use the same Oyster card to enter the
Underground or board a bus, because when one 'touched-in' at the
Underground gates or on the bus in neither instance would that
'resolve' the earlier unfinished journey.

If one were to go through the gate and hence touch-in and almost
immediately go back out through the gate and hence touch-out, one
would still be charged for a journey - though I think one would only
be charged for the cheapest journey from that station (I have done
this at an Underground station and this is what I remember happening).
Bear in mind that if the system were configured to refund the fare in
its entirety if one went in and then straight back out the gates this
would just be a fare dodgers charter if they were heading to an
ungated destination station (and were also working on the basis that
they would avoid any human ticket checks by RPIs or guards ) - they
would enter through the gate and hence touch-in, then touch-out as if
to exit back through the gate but actually turn back around, leaving
the gate open, and go and get on their train having paid and intending
to pay nothing.

The same principle applies to standalone Oyster readers - if all a
second touch on them did was to nullify the fist one, then all people
would do would be to double touch on them the whole time. What's more
with this people could claim ignorance as their defence and say they
had gone back for a second touch because they weren't sure whether it
worked the first time around.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:54:45 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:


On 24 Dec, 01:06, Charles Ellson wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:44:49 -0800 (PST), Chris

(snip)

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!

What happens if the Oyster card is "touched out" near enough
immediately at the same station ?


Eh? Do you mean what happens if the Oyster card is 'touched' a second
time shortly after the first 'touch'?
(This 'touching' terminology might be good for issuing basic usage
instructions, but it becomes ever more absurd when used in a more
advanced manner to describe various scenarios!)

In essence, if one is *leaving* via a ticket gate then the first touch
will be regarded by the system as 'touching out', and the system will
presume one did not touch-in as one should and will thus levy the
punitive charge (£4, apart from London termini stations where it is
£5, and Heathrow where it will apparently be £8).

If one were to 'touch' on a standalone Oyster reader, for example by a
manual gate, then if the card has not been 'touched-in' within the
past 2 1/2 hours the system will presume that one is starting a new
journey and will debit the full £4/£5/£8 'entry charge' - the concept
being that the appropriate amount is refunded back to one's card when
one completes the journey and touches-out so one will have paid the
correct fare.

If one was to validate on a standalone reader for the first then even
if they were ending their journey they would end up paying the
'penalty' charge because they will not touch-out in the next 2 1/2
hours - this is a so-called "unresolved journey" - and this would
still occur if one were to then almost immediately (or indeed within
the next 2 1/2 hours) use the same Oyster card to enter the
Underground or board a bus, because when one 'touched-in' at the
Underground gates or on the bus in neither instance would that
'resolve' the earlier unfinished journey.

If one were to go through the gate and hence touch-in and almost
immediately go back out through the gate and hence touch-out, one
would still be charged for a journey - though I think one would only
be charged for the cheapest journey from that station (I have done
this at an Underground station and this is what I remember happening).

That was what I had in mind. It could happen if e.g. the passenger for
some reason decides or realises that it is necessary to leave for some
reason of his/her own or it could be because of a service disruption
causing the use of alternative transport.

Bear in mind that if the system were configured to refund the fare in
its entirety if one went in and then straight back out the gates this
would just be a fare dodgers charter if they were heading to an
ungated destination station (and were also working on the basis that
they would avoid any human ticket checks by RPIs or guards ) - they
would enter through the gate and hence touch-in, then touch-out as if
to exit back through the gate but actually turn back around, leaving
the gate open, and go and get on their train having paid and intending
to pay nothing.

It would be not much less noticeable to jump the barrier ?

The same principle applies to standalone Oyster readers - if all a
second touch on them did was to nullify the fist one, then all people
would do would be to double touch on them the whole time. What's more
with this people could claim ignorance as their defence and say they
had gone back for a second touch because they weren't sure whether it
worked the first time around.

On Dec 23, 5:44*pm, Chris wrote:
On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:





On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

It is your responsibility to use the correct ticket, isn't
it?....Engage brain on getting off the train!- Hide quoted text -

Hence the use of the term "mistake". Nevertheless the system could be
set up to minimise the likelihood of making mistakes, particularly
when there are going to be thousands of people queuing/phoning up to
get them rectified.

But it won't be. I did something similar on a day when I had to get a
one-day travelcard (to use NR) and accidentally touched the Oyster at
Bank (normally I'd try to get a longer travelcard on Oyster or be
using PAYG).

TfL refuses to put one-day travelcards on Oyster, despite them being
in no way equivalent to capping, so no doubt they won't do anything to
help in the future either.

On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:
On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!


I don't now see Oyster PAYG as a charging scheme extending at all
outside Greater London, apart from it being extended to Maidenhead &
Shenfield in due course.

The Trainline did propose at one point to issue tickets on Oyster
plastic, but with the removal of Mifare Classic as a option for
National Rail ticketing, I don't think there will be any future moves
in this direction.

On 23 Dec, 18:04, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
On 23 Dec, 16:17, Mizter T wrote:



On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number
to get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the
way to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

I don't now see Oyster PAYG as a charging scheme extending at all
outside Greater London, apart from it being extended to Maidenhead &
Shenfield in due course.

Sorry, I was unclear - I didn't mean Oyster PAYG, instead I was
referring to a future smartcard system for the new Southern franchise
- which I presume is a requirement of the new franchise agreement, or
is it not?

My scepticism about the timescale for any Southern smartcard system is
based on the muddled rollout of the SWT system, which sounds as though
it is some considerable time away from being made universally
available across their routes.

Anyway the notion of a smartcard system offering a pay-as-you-go
facility over a widespread area seems somewhat unlikely, as there is
are some almost insurmountable issues with any such implementation -
anyway I understand that the TOCs plans for ITSO smartcards don't
really feature pay-as-you-go as a possible application either.
Individual pay-as-you-go system remains a possibility in specific
'metro areas', with acceptance on buses (and trams) as well.

We discussed many of these issues in a recent uk.r thread, "Smartcard
readers at stations in Hampshire/Dorset?":
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....08f185d6b9c1f/


Note that David Stocks actually said "[i]f Southern can offer Oyster
compatible tickets all the way to the coast [...]" - such a thing is
certainly possible, but it would just be a combined smartcard
fulfilling two separate functions, that of...
(1) a Southern ITSO smartcard, perhaps holding a virtual carnet of
Brighton to London tickets, and
(2) an Oyster card, offering Oyster PAYG capability for journeys
within London.

In other words the card would simply offer the benefits of two
separate cards, combined into one card - it would just be handy,
that's all! (The existing Barclaycard OnePulse card is basically
this.)


The Trainline did propose at one point to issue tickets on Oyster
plastic, but with the removal of Mifare Classic as a option for
National Rail ticketing, I don't think there will be any future moves
in this direction.


I vaguely remember something about that - was it ever anything other
than them thinking allowed?

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

08r45 is now quite expensive for mobile phone users, especially if they
get calls to 01/02/03 landlines bundled effectively for free.

I gave the 020 7227 7886 number out on this newsgroup. Did you get it from
an official source or from me?

--
Colin Rosenstiel