Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

[x-posted to include uk.transport.london]

On 9 Jan, 16:59, CJB wrote:
In early 2008 Camden Lock Market was largely burnt out including many
adjacent buildings. Camden Council have been extremely slow in
initiating rebuilding and the market is still closed. [...]


You've raised this exact point before and have obviously chosen to
ignore the replies that said that as the market is privately owned
it's not the responsibility of LB Camden. I will point you and any
other interested readers to the relevant thread from October '08
(which appeared on uk.r and ull) but I don't hold out much hope that
you'll pay any attention to it (via Google Groups):

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.ra...70e82b55adc71/


Anyway, in issues *totally unconnected* to the fire at the market...

[...] In November 2008
National Rail was diverting trains past Primrose Hill Station. This is
a view from the train of the total devastation and lack of rebuilding
work.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...36385&hl=en-GB


Interesting to see a video record of what was there, or more
accurately what was visible from a passing train. These platform level
structures have now been demolished (but not the main station building
including ticket hall), and whilst it's a little bit of a shame to see
a small bit of old derelict London swept away I am far from convinced
that this really was a hidden gem of Victorian railway architecture
(but yes I do like the classic design of the canopy supports i.e.
poles, very stylish). There's more discussion on this issue, including
a demi-lengthly contribution from yours truly at my discursive best
(i.e. worst!) in this uk.railway thread from last weekend entitled
"BBC - Disused rail station demolished" (via Google Groups):

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....906d38c3833ff/


By the by you say that the video shows the "total devastation and lack
of rebuilding work" at Primrose Hill - ?!?! The station has been
totally disused since 1986, why should there be rebuilding work on a
disused station? Total devastation is a silly comment too - basically
the station had been left to the wilderness because it wasn't in use,
it's as simple as that. Yes I would love to see the station reopen but
the really critical question (which I broached in my posts to the
thread that I've mentioned above) is that there simply isn't a
passenger service over that line whatsoever, and creating one isn't a
simple matter either as there's a great many other pieces of the
interconnected puzzle that would need to be moved around in order for
this to be achieved.

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On Fri, 9 Jan 2009 18:01:05 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

[x-posted to include uk.transport.london]

On 9 Jan, 16:59, CJB wrote:
In early 2008 Camden Lock Market was largely burnt out including many
adjacent buildings. Camden Council have been extremely slow in
initiating rebuilding and the market is still closed. [...]


You've raised this exact point before and have obviously chosen to
ignore the replies that said that as the market is privately owned
it's not the responsibility of LB Camden. I will point you and any
other interested readers to the relevant thread from October '08
(which appeared on uk.r and ull) but I don't hold out much hope that
you'll pay any attention to it (via Google Groups):

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.ra...70e82b55adc71/

Although they don't do the work themselves the council is presumably
responsible for scrutiny of anything that counts as other than mere
repair and for enforcement of other applicable building control
legislation. With the state of some of the site there will be new
building which has to conform with local development plans etc.
snip

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

"Charles Ellson" wrote
In early 2008 Camden Lock Market was largely burnt out including many
adjacent buildings. Camden Council have been extremely slow in
initiating rebuilding and the market is still closed. [...]
[snipped]
Although they don't do the work themselves the council is presumably
responsible for scrutiny of anything that counts as other than mere
repair and for enforcement of other applicable building control
legislation. With the state of some of the site there will be new
building which has to conform with local development plans etc.
snip

Sure; but that is not quite the same as *initiating* anything - that has to
come from the owners.
--

Andrew
"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On 10 Jan, 09:33, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:
Sure; but that is not quite the same as *initiating* anything - that has to
come from the owners.

Also it was the relatively unimportant Camden Canal Market that burnt
down. The much larger Camden Lock Market was unaffected.

U

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
[x-posted to include uk.transport.london]

On 9 Jan, 16:59, CJB wrote:
In early 2008 Camden Lock Market was largely burnt out including many
adjacent buildings. Camden Council have been extremely slow in
initiating rebuilding and the market is still closed. [...]


You've raised this exact point before and have obviously chosen to
ignore the replies that said that as the market is privately owned
it's not the responsibility of LB Camden.

It can take a loooong time before anything happens after a fire - probably
due to insurance companies and planning authorities dragging their heels.

A petrol station near me caught fire a year last January and was totally
burnt out. It took until November before the dilapidated building and
burnt-out cars on the forecourt were cleared away. Apparently if the owner
wants to rebuild it, he has to seek new planning permission, even though he
is rebuilding what was there previously. I'm not sure whether that was a
special case or whether it's always true that a building which is rebuilt
after demolition following a fire or other disaster needs a new planning
application.

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Mr Thant wrote:
On 10 Jan, 09:33, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

Sure; but that is not quite the same as *initiating* anything - that has to
come from the owners.


Also it was the relatively unimportant Camden Canal Market that burnt
down. The much larger Camden Lock Market was unaffected.

They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter how
minor.

The Stables market has been demolished and if LU have their way the one
next tothe tube station will be next to go

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Stuart wrote:

Mr Thant wrote:
On 10 Jan, 09:33, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

Sure; but that is not quite the same as *initiating* anything - that
has to come from the owners.

Also it was the relatively unimportant Camden Canal Market that burnt
down. The much larger Camden Lock Market was unaffected.

They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter how minor.

Who's 'they'?

The Stables market has been demolished

No it hasn't.

tom

--
But in natural sciences whose conclusions are true and necessary and
have nothing to do with human will, one must take care not to place
oneself in the defence of error; for here a thousand Demostheneses and
a thousand Aristotles would be left in the lurch by every mediocre wit
who happened to hit upon the truth for himself. -- Galileo

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Tom Anderson wrote:


They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter how
minor.

Who's 'they'?

Camden

The Stables market has been demolished

No it hasn't.

Yes it has, all the arches have gone and are now a building site.

The Horse Hospital building doesn't have any stalls in any more, north
of the railway line all they have is a few stalls on the ramp bit
backing onto the road

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

In message , Tom
Anderson writes

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Stuart wrote:
The Stables market has been demolished

No it hasn't.

Doesn't look like there's much left to me ...

http://benleto.com/blog/592/stables-market-gone/

--
Paul Terry

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

In message , at 15:21:39 on Tue,
13 Jan 2009, Stuart remarked:
They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter
how minor.
Who's 'they'?

Camden

Camden what? Council, residents, visitors, traders...

--
Roland Perry

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

"Stuart" wrote ...
Also it was the relatively unimportant Camden Canal Market that burnt
down. The much larger Camden Lock Market was unaffected.
They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter how
minor.
The Stables market has been demolished and if LU have their way the one
next to the tube station will be next to go

Who is 'they'?

And are there any proposals to replace the market area that LU needs for the
station work?
--

Andrew

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

"Stuart" wrote ...
They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter how
minor.
Who's 'they'?

Camden

Huh?
Camden council?
Camden residents?

Neither gets much out of the markets; most Camden residents loathe the
filth, congestion and disruption and crime associated with the market.

Most of the 'customers', who throng in to buy tat at inflated prices, buy
drugs and shoplift, are not camden residents or council tax payers; few
spend much money in local shops (though the pubs do OK).

Very few of the stallholders have any local connection at all.

Camden council makes sympathetic noises because they daren't do anything
else, now that the market is part of "Ye Olde London", and has been for
about 15 years. But they'd probably be as pleased as the residents if they
didn't have to clean up after it, financed only in small part by the
business council tax the market yields.

I suspect Amy Whinehouse would be upset, but most things upset our Amy,
don't they?
--

Andrew

"If A is success in life, then A = x + y + z.
Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." ~ Albert Einstein

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Stuart wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

They can't really afford to lose a market at the moment, no matter how
minor.

Who's 'they'?

Camden

Camden is a 'where', not a 'they'. Were you thinking of some specific
group of people in Camden?

The Stables market has been demolished

No it hasn't.

Yes it has, all the arches have gone and are now a building site.

The Horse Hospital building doesn't have any stalls in any more, north
of the railway line all they have is a few stalls on the ramp bit
backing onto the road

It's a lot more than a few. There are also places underneath the Horse
Hospital.

And the stuff that has been demolished was 'temporary' stalls, not
original fabric. That's still there, and will once again be housing stalls
when the redevelopment is finished. Now, i could be completely wrong and
wildly optimistic about what the nature of those stalls will be, but i
think it's still going to be Camden, just more of it. We'll have to wait
and see, won't we?

tom

--
But in natural sciences whose conclusions are true and necessary and
have nothing to do with human will, one must take care not to place
oneself in the defence of error; for here a thousand Demostheneses and
a thousand Aristotles would be left in the lurch by every mediocre wit
who happened to hit upon the truth for himself. -- Galileo

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

In message , at 16:04:01 on Tue, 13
Jan 2009, Andrew Heenan remarked:
Camden council makes sympathetic noises because they daren't do anything
else, now that the market is part of "Ye Olde London", and has been for
about 15 years. But they'd probably be as pleased as the residents if they
didn't have to clean up after it, financed only in small part by the
business council tax the market yields.

Business rates collected by local councils are forwarded direct to the
Treasury, and grant money received by councils is based on a formula
that pays scant attention to their business rate revenue-raising
efforts.
--
Roland Perry

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Mortimer wrote

A petrol station near me caught fire a year last January and was
totally
burnt out. It took until November before the dilapidated building and

burnt-out cars on the forecourt were cleared away. Apparently if the
owner
wants to rebuild it, he has to seek new planning permission, even
though he
is rebuilding what was there previously. I'm not sure whether that
was a
special case or whether it's always true that a building which is
rebuilt
after demolition following a fire or other disaster needs a new
planning
application.

An interesting point.

Since the rebuild is hardly likely to be truly identical, planning
permission would seem required and of course the previous permission
may have included a time limit which has now expired. Some demolition
would also be needed and ISTR that demolition now requres permission
after various buildings were demolished lest they might be listed for
preservation.


--
Mike D

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On 2009-01-13, Paul Terry wrote:
On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Stuart wrote:
The Stables market has been demolished

No it hasn't.

Doesn't look like there's much left to me ...

http://benleto.com/blog/592/stables-market-gone/

That post is dated December 2007, I've been there more recently than
that and there was still plenty there. It was certainly not a pile of
rubble as that photo implies.

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

And the stuff that has been demolished was 'temporary' stalls, not
original fabric.

All the arches have gone, that was all brick structure and housed the
furniture stalls... if that's not 'fabric' i dunno what is

That's still there, and will once again be housing
stalls when the redevelopment is finished. Now, i could be completely
wrong and wildly optimistic about what the nature of those stalls will
be, but i think it's still going to be Camden, just more of it. We'll
have to wait and see, won't we?

It's going to be a load of bland (and presumably now, empty) shop units
isn't it?

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Andrew Heenan wrote:

Neither gets much out of the markets; most Camden residents loathe the
filth, congestion and disruption and crime associated with the market.

Most of the 'customers', who throng in to buy tat at inflated prices, buy
drugs and shoplift, are not camden residents or council tax payers; few
spend much money in local shops (though the pubs do OK).

Very few of the stallholders have any local connection at all.

Camden council makes sympathetic noises because they daren't do anything
else, now that the market is part of "Ye Olde London", and has been for
about 15 years. But they'd probably be as pleased as the residents if they
didn't have to clean up after it, financed only in small part by the
business council tax the market yields.

I suspect Amy Whinehouse would be upset, but most things upset our Amy,
don't they?

In that case, if the people of Camden don't care about what they have
then they should demolish the whole place and build a Westfield
there.... a huge glass bland shopping mall full of all identikit shops.
Then replace all the bars and pubs with Wetherspoons and Slug and
Lettuces. It'll be boring as hell

The problem with London in the last few years is that anything with
character is being removed and replaced by offices and Starbucks and
plain blandity

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Jon Ribbens wrote:
On 2009-01-13, Paul Terry wrote:

Doesn't look like there's much left to me ...

http://benleto.com/blog/592/stables-market-gone/


That post is dated December 2007, I've been there more recently than
that and there was still plenty there. It was certainly not a pile of
rubble as that photo implies.

There is plenty there, yes - the rubble has been replaced by new
buildings. But there's not a lot left of what was there originally

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On 14 Jan 2009 11:54:43 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:

Mortimer wrote

A petrol station near me caught fire a year last January and was
totally
burnt out. It took until November before the dilapidated building and

burnt-out cars on the forecourt were cleared away. Apparently if the
owner
wants to rebuild it, he has to seek new planning permission, even
though he
is rebuilding what was there previously. I'm not sure whether that
was a
special case or whether it's always true that a building which is
rebuilt
after demolition following a fire or other disaster needs a new
planning
application.

An interesting point.

Since the rebuild is hardly likely to be truly identical, planning
permission would seem required and of course the previous permission
may have included a time limit which has now expired. Some demolition
would also be needed and ISTR that demolition now requres permission
after various buildings were demolished lest they might be listed for
preservation.

If you're thinking about the same building as I am then that was in
Scotland where demolition is not "permitted development" except in
urgent circumstances.
AFAICT planning permission is still not generally required in England,
although other requirements apply :-
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...315297637.html

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Charles Ellson set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

On 14 Jan 2009 11:54:43 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:

Mortimer wrote

A petrol station near me caught fire a year last January and was
totally
burnt out. It took until November before the dilapidated building and

burnt-out cars on the forecourt were cleared away. Apparently if the
owner
wants to rebuild it, he has to seek new planning permission, even
though he
is rebuilding what was there previously. I'm not sure whether that
was a
special case or whether it's always true that a building which is
rebuilt
after demolition following a fire or other disaster needs a new
planning
application.

An interesting point.

Since the rebuild is hardly likely to be truly identical, planning
permission would seem required and of course the previous permission
may have included a time limit which has now expired. Some demolition
would also be needed and ISTR that demolition now requres permission
after various buildings were demolished lest they might be listed for
preservation.

If you're thinking about the same building as I am then that was in
Scotland where demolition is not "permitted development" except in
urgent circumstances.
AFAICT planning permission is still not generally required in England,
although other requirements apply :-
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/eng...315297637.html

It's possible that some aspects of the original construction were legal at
the time but are no longer so. (E.g. use of asbestos?) Compliance with the
current issue of building regulations will require some changes to the
original design. So it's a new design. So new planning permission is
required QED.
--
ξ:) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Charles
Ellson gently breathed:
On 14 Jan 2009 11:54:43 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:
Mortimer wrote

[rebuilding a petrol station after a fire requiring planning permission]

An interesting point.

Since the rebuild is hardly likely to be truly identical, planning
permission would seem required and of course the previous permission
may have included a time limit which has now expired. Some demolition
would also be needed and ISTR that demolition now requres permission
after various buildings were demolished lest they might be listed for
preservation.

I understand that with domestic buildings, you can build without
permission where there already was a building (though in places like
national parks or conservation areas I believe this doesn't apply),
provided the new building is the same size as the old one. So you can
buy a ruined farmhouse and rebuild it or build a new one of the same
size. Industrial buildings or buildings that store dangerous chemicals
(like petrol) are almost certainly a different case though.

If you're thinking about the same building as I am then that was in
Scotland where demolition is not "permitted development" except in
urgent circumstances.

Dumbarton West Station by any chance?

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net
- http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

Camden Lock Market - still burnt out
 

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:54:55 +0000, Pyromancer
wrote:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Charles
Ellson gently breathed:
On 14 Jan 2009 11:54:43 GMT, "Michael R N Dolbear"
wrote:
Mortimer wrote

[rebuilding a petrol station after a fire requiring planning permission]

An interesting point.

Since the rebuild is hardly likely to be truly identical, planning
permission would seem required and of course the previous permission
may have included a time limit which has now expired. Some demolition
would also be needed and ISTR that demolition now requres permission
after various buildings were demolished lest they might be listed for
preservation.

I understand that with domestic buildings, you can build without
permission where there already was a building (though in places like
national parks or conservation areas I believe this doesn't apply),
provided the new building is the same size as the old one.

Hmmm...
(9) Except as provided in Part 31, Schedule 2 does not permit any
development which requires or involves the demolition of a building,
but in this paragraph "building" does not include part of a building.
[Town and Country Planning Act 1995]

Part 31 does not seem to exclude the involvement of the Planning
Authority except in cases of urgency and in s.1 :-
"erection", in relation to buildings as defined in this article,
includes extension, alteration, or re-erection;

Even where the demolition is "permitted development" it looks like
there is still a general requirement of giving notice to the planning
authority so that they can take action if a particular restriction is
known to them.

So you can
buy a ruined farmhouse and rebuild it or build a new one of the same
size. Industrial buildings or buildings that store dangerous chemicals
(like petrol) are almost certainly a different case though.

If you're thinking about the same building as I am then that was in
Scotland where demolition is not "permitted development" except in
urgent circumstances.

Dumbarton West Station by any chance?

No it was some over-rich so-and-so (not an Egyptian grocer) who
thought he could get around the planning system by knocking down his
"big house" but IIRC landing up in court because of the demolition. It
is possible that the building might have been listed.
Found it! It was B-listed but the Sheriff also blamed the planning
authority for messing up procedures :-
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle860512.ece