The wrong type of receipt
 

A tale of confusing tickets and receipts...

The other day I had to get an extension to my Z1-4 season ticket, on the
student discount, in order to go to Epsom. At Waterloo I presented my
Oyster, the paper receipt and my Young Person's Railcard as usual (although
the SWT staff haven't always ben consistent about whether I can get a YPR
discount for this or not). The SWT staffer was the first one to use an
Oyster reader for my card in such circumstances, rather than just looking at
the receipt. He said that my receipt had been printed on a Gold Card slip
and should have been printed on another, and that technically when in the
past I've been given extensions marked as for Gold Card I've been
effectively travelling illegally as I don't have such a one. Looking at some
of the past paper tickets it seems that one of the reasons I haven't always
got the YPR discount has been because of the Gold Card.

Does anyone know:
a) If/how I can get a new paper receipt for my season ticket for future use?
b) Whether it's possible to complain about the TfL staffer at Colindale who
created the mess in the first place?
c) If anyone TOC has ever considered selling extensions from ticket
machines, thus allowing the customer to buy what they know they need/have
the discount for? (And with Oyster surely it would be easy to validate
existing tickets.)

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 7, 8:41*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
A tale of confusing tickets and receipts...

The other day I had to get an extension to my Z1-4 season ticket, on the
student discount, in order to go to Epsom. At Waterloo I presented my
Oyster, the paper receipt and my Young Person's Railcard as usual (although
the SWT staff haven't always ben consistent about whether I can get a YPR
discount for this or not). The SWT staffer was the first one to use an
Oyster reader for my card in such circumstances, rather than just looking at
the receipt. He said that my receipt had been printed on a Gold Card slip
and should have been printed on another, and that technically when in the
past I've been given extensions marked as for Gold Card I've been
effectively travelling illegally as I don't have such a one. Looking at some
of the past paper tickets it seems that one of the reasons I haven't always
got the YPR discount has been because of the Gold Card.

Does anyone know:
a) If/how I can get a new paper receipt for my season ticket for future use?
b) Whether it's possible to complain about the TfL staffer at Colindale who
created the mess in the first place?
c) If anyone TOC has ever considered selling extensions from ticket
machines, thus allowing the customer to buy what they know they need/have
the discount for? (And with Oyster surely it would be easy to validate
existing tickets.)

Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.

That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote:

Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.

Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.

That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.

That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the moment.

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 7, 10:02*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.

Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.

That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.

That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the moment.

Ah. Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. I didn't notice Epsom isn't.

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.
Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.

That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.
That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the moment.

Ah. Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. I didn't notice Epsom isn't.

Epsom Downs and Banstead were annexed by the zones within the past 2-3
years or so - the zones used to stop at Belmont.

Epsom itself (and Dartford) might make sense for future zonal imperialism.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

The wrong type of receipt
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.
Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys
off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the
machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.

That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.
That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond
Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving
Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the
moment.

Ah. Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. I didn't notice Epsom isn't.

Epsom Downs and Banstead were annexed by the zones within the past 2-3
years or so - the zones used to stop at Belmont.

Epsom itself (and Dartford) might make sense for future zonal imperialism.


Isn't Dartford already "zoned"?

--
Moving things in still pictures!

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 8, 3:43*pm, ®i©ardo wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.
Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys
off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the
machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.

That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.
That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond
Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving
Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the
moment.

Ah. *Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. *I didn't notice Epsom isn't.

Epsom Downs and Banstead were annexed by the zones within the past 2-3
years or so - the zones used to stop at Belmont.

Epsom itself (and Dartford) might make sense for future zonal imperialism.

Isn't Dartford already "zoned"?

No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.

For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

For the Central Line (PAYG accepted) they extended zone 6.

For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote:
No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.

For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.


To be more precise, Watford Junction is not in the zonal system. It is
'beyond zone 8', but not in zone 9, according to the TfL and London
Connections maps. Only Amersham and Chesham are in zone 9, Watford Met is in
zone 7.

However Watford Junction does have a special PAYG fare, so it sets the
precedent for any other station that is just outside the zones, but
logically fits the PAYG scheme.

Paul S

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 8, 6:01*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
MIG wrote:
No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. *Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.

For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

To be more precise, Watford Junction is not in the zonal system. It is
'beyond zone 8', but not in zone 9, according to the TfL and London
Connections maps. Only Amersham and Chesham are in zone 9, Watford Met is in
zone 7.

Yes, I should have said "the LO Watford line".


However Watford Junction does have a special PAYG fare, so it sets the
precedent for any other station that is just outside the zones, but
logically fits the PAYG scheme.

I suppose so, given that it doesn't seem to be restricted to LO
services (ie there are now Oyster readers at platforms at Euston that
can't be reached by third rail trains). There isn't a self-contained
line ending at Dartford, but that doesn't seem to matter.

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 3:43 pm, ®i©ardo wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.
Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys
off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the
machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.
That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.
That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond
Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving
Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the
moment.
Ah. Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. I didn't notice Epsom isn't.
Epsom Downs and Banstead were annexed by the zones within the past 2-3
years or so - the zones used to stop at Belmont.
Epsom itself (and Dartford) might make sense for future zonal imperialism.
Isn't Dartford already "zoned"?

No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.

For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

For the Central Line (PAYG accepted) they extended zone 6.

For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.

Thanks. I only raised the question because Dartford (and Swanley) seem
to indicate the furthest limit of the Oystercard scheme in that
particular part of Kent, so I just assumed that they would be part of a
zone.

Having just been issued with a card under the Veterans' Concessionary
Travel Scheme, although I live in Somerset, I've been poring over
transport maps of London/Greater London to see just how far I can get
for free, once I get off the train at Paddington. My intention is to
visit the Royal Engineers Museum which is close to Gillingham station,
hence my interest in the extent of the Kentish connection.

--
Moving things in still pictures!

The wrong type of receipt
 

In message
, MIG
writes
For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.
What happened to zones A to D?
--
Clive

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 8, 9:07*pm, Clive wrote:
In message
, MIG
writesFor Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

What happened to zones A to D?

Not an expert, but they were replaced with numbers around about the
time of the creation of London Overground I think. Someone will be
along with the correct answer ...

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 8, 9:03*pm, ®i©ardo wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 3:43 pm, ®i©ardo wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.
Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys
off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the
machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.
That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.
That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond
Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving
Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the
moment.
Ah. *Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. *I didn't notice Epsom isn't.
Epsom Downs and Banstead were annexed by the zones within the past 2-3
years or so - the zones used to stop at Belmont.
Epsom itself (and Dartford) might make sense for future zonal imperialism.
Isn't Dartford already "zoned"?

No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. *Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.

For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

For the Central Line (PAYG accepted) they extended zone 6.

For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.

Thanks. I only raised the question because Dartford (and Swanley) seem
to indicate the furthest limit of the Oystercard scheme in that
particular part of Kent, so I just assumed that they would be part of a
zone.

Having just been issued with a card under the Veterans' Concessionary
Travel Scheme, although I live in Somerset, I've been poring over
transport maps of London/Greater London to see just how far I can get
for free, once I get off the train at Paddington. My intention is to
visit the Royal Engineers Museum which is close to Gillingham station,
hence my interest in the extent of the Kentish connection.

You can get all the way to Bluewater (near Greenhithe) on a travelcard
or PAYG (if that corresponds to the concessionary area) by getting a
96 bus.

The station the 96 goes nearest to is probably Crayford, although I
know Bexleyheath better.

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 9:07 pm, Clive wrote:

What happened to zones A to D?

Not an expert, but they were replaced with numbers around about the
time of the creation of London Overground I think. Someone will be
along with the correct answer ...

That's how I recall it happening. The station maps were changed gradually
around the time of the LO franchise change, from November 2007 on?

Paul S

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 9:03 pm, ®i©ardo wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 8, 3:43 pm, ®i©ardo wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
MIG wrote:
On Mar 7, 10:02 pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
MIG wrote:
Having to queue for extensions has been a pain for years, but the
assumption is probably that with Oyster PAYG the problem will go away.
Yes I find it very frustrating because I usually make such journeys
off peak
and find the desks fill up with people asking for awkward stuff and the
queue takes an age. The fact that London Underground machines used to do
paper extension tickets (do they still? I've not used one of the
machines in
yonks) just makes it more annoying that the TOCs don't.
That is, the extension to your season is some PAYG credit on the same
card, as it would be on a purely LU journey now.
That assumes Oyster will be rolled out into the commuter belt beyond
Zone 6
though (although for my particular journey there's talk of moving
Epsom into
the zone - the other stations in the borough were not too long ago) and
no-one seems to be talking about this for all the networks at the
moment.
Ah. Last time I faced the extension frustration it was to go to Epsom
Downs, which is in the zones. I didn't notice Epsom isn't.
Epsom Downs and Banstead were annexed by the zones within the past 2-3
years or so - the zones used to stop at Belmont.
Epsom itself (and Dartford) might make sense for future zonal imperialism.
Isn't Dartford already "zoned"?
No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.
For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.
For the Central Line (PAYG accepted) they extended zone 6.
For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.
Thanks. I only raised the question because Dartford (and Swanley) seem
to indicate the furthest limit of the Oystercard scheme in that
particular part of Kent, so I just assumed that they would be part of a
zone.

Having just been issued with a card under the Veterans' Concessionary
Travel Scheme, although I live in Somerset, I've been poring over
transport maps of London/Greater London to see just how far I can get
for free, once I get off the train at Paddington. My intention is to
visit the Royal Engineers Museum which is close to Gillingham station,
hence my interest in the extent of the Kentish connection.

You can get all the way to Bluewater (near Greenhithe) on a travelcard
or PAYG (if that corresponds to the concessionary area) by getting a
96 bus.

The station the 96 goes nearest to is probably Crayford, although I
know Bexleyheath better.

Thanks for the information. I've got the Diamond Travel Card for free
bus rides in England so I'll investigate that further.

--
Moving things in still pictures!

The wrong type of receipt
 

On Sun, 8 Mar 2009, Paul Scott wrote:

MIG wrote:
No, although I don't quite understand the system for extending zones
beyond Greater London. Maybe it depends on when it happened, whether
PAYG existed at the time, whether PAYG is accepted etc; it seems to be
a bit of a mess.

For Watford and the Metropolitan (PAYG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

To be more precise, Watford Junction is not in the zonal system. It is
'beyond zone 8', but not in zone 9, according to the TfL and London
Connections maps. Only Amersham and Chesham are in zone 9, Watford Met is in
zone 7.

However Watford Junction does have a special PAYG fare, so it sets the
precedent for any other station that is just outside the zones, but
logically fits the PAYG scheme.

It's effectively in zone 10, really. It's just that there is no zone 10.

tom

--
I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless
enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as
though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco

Zone 6 - was The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote in
:

For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.

I think that Hampton Court has been in the zones since zones were invented,
but Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner (both arguably in Epsom) were added
recently. Although the users of Epsom station would welcome its being
included in zone 6, I have seen no official encouragement to think that it
will be.

I would guess that more passengers use Epsom station in an hour than use ED
and TC in a day, so the effect on revenue would be siginificant.

Peter

--
Peter Campbell Smith ~ London ~ pjcs00 (a) gmail.com

Zone 6 - was The wrong type of receipt
 

Peter Campbell Smith wrote:

For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.

I think that Hampton Court has been in the zones since zones were
invented,

I believe this is so. Although the station is outside Greater London its
catchment area stretches into it (including the palace itself).

but Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner (both arguably in Epsom)

IIRC both are on the actual border between Epsom & Ewell and Reigate &
Banstead.

were added
recently. Although the users of Epsom station would welcome its being
included in zone 6, I have seen no official encouragement to think that it
will be.

I would guess that more passengers use Epsom station in an hour than use
ED
and TC in a day, so the effect on revenue would be siginificant.

Yes - the Epsom Downs line has a low frequency of just one train an hour off
peak and not that many more at peak hours, and also if memory serves correct
it usually takes one of the longer routes to London. The result is that many
people for whom it's their nearest station (including my family and myself
in the past) will use Epsom instead. There's never been an "Epsom stations"
group (and I recall once discovering Sutton to Epsom is cheaper than Sutton
to Epsom Downs), though the usefulness would be limited to people travelling
from West Croydon or Sutton who could walk from Epsom Downs to their
destination.

Zone 6 - was The wrong type of receipt
 

On Mar 9, 10:06*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:
Peter Campbell Smith wrote:
For various bits of NR, eg Hampton Court, Epsom Downs (PAYG not
accepted) they've extended zone 6.
I think that Hampton Court has been in the zones since zones were
invented,

I believe this is so. Although the station is outside Greater London its
catchment area stretches into it (including the palace itself).

I'm sure it hasn't. The zones went to the edge of Greater London when
I lived further out in 1991 or so. I used to have an all zones*
travelcard and had to get an extension ticket to go to Thames Ditton.

*as it was then; may have been at the time when zone 5 went to the
edge of Greater London


but Epsom Downs and Tattenham Corner (both arguably in Epsom)

IIRC both are on the actual border between Epsom & Ewell and Reigate &
Banstead.

were added
recently. *Although the users of Epsom station would welcome its being
included in zone 6, I have seen no official encouragement to think that it
will be.
I would guess that more passengers use Epsom station in an hour than use
ED
and TC in a day, so the effect on revenue would be siginificant.

Yes - the Epsom Downs line has a low frequency of just one train an hour off
peak and not that many more at peak hours, and also if memory serves correct
it usually takes one of the longer routes to London. The result is that many
people for whom it's their nearest station (including my family and myself
in the past) will use Epsom instead. There's never been an "Epsom stations"
group (and I recall once discovering Sutton to Epsom is cheaper than Sutton
to Epsom Downs), though the usefulness would be limited to people travelling
from West Croydon or Sutton who could walk from Epsom Downs to their
destination.

Trains from Epsom Downs generally go via West Croydon, but it's not as
much of a ridiculous detour as it looks on most diagrams. Still
longer than the Hackbridge route though.

The wrong type of receipt
 

MIG wrote in
:

On Mar 8, 9:07*pm, Clive wrote:
In message
,
MIG writesFor Watford and the
Metropolitan (PA
YG accepted) they created zones 7
to 9.

What happened to zones A to D?

Not an expert, but they were replaced with numbers around about the
time of the creation of London Overground I think. Someone will be
along with the correct answer ...

The Font Of All Knowledge states that "On 2 January 2008 zones A-D were
replaced by new zones numbered 7-9."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelcard_Zones_7-9
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...card_Zones_7-9
&diff=prev&oldid=181657722