A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

I was just looking at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...aces/2259.aspx
and I noticed that Natal Road, which usefully gets you right up to the
Brownlow Rd/A406 junction without experiencing any traffic jams when both of
those roads are utterly clogged, is going to have a forced left turn to
Bowes Road, making it useless. I also notice that they are banning the left
turn from the NCR to Melville Gardens, which is currently a very handy
escape route when the A406 here is clogged (which is most of the time). The
site makes noises about how the junctions will be improved, but it doesn't
suggest that capacity will be increased, just that pedestrian facilities
will be improved at the expense of road traffic. So the "improvement"
involves making one of the worst bottlenecks in London worse, and shutting
down all escape routes to force even more traffic into it. Is it too late to
get Boris to change some small details?

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

How will they enforce a no left turn? Doesn't make sense unless they
physcially block the left side of the road where it joins the 406.
Wouldn't put it past them however.

B2003

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

On Tue, 10 Mar 2009, John Rowland wrote:

I was just looking at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...aces/2259.aspx
and I noticed that Natal Road, which usefully gets you right up to the
Brownlow Rd/A406 junction without experiencing any traffic jams when both of
those roads are utterly clogged, is going to have a forced left turn to
Bowes Road, making it useless. I also notice that they are banning the left
turn from the NCR to Melville Gardens, which is currently a very handy
escape route when the A406 here is clogged (which is most of the time). The
site makes noises about how the junctions will be improved, but it doesn't
suggest that capacity will be increased, just that pedestrian facilities
will be improved at the expense of road traffic. So the "improvement"
involves making one of the worst bottlenecks in London worse, and shutting
down all escape routes to force even more traffic into it. Is it too late to
get Boris to change some small details?

Only one way to find out!

http://www.writetothem.com/

tom

--
Any problem in computer science can be solved with another layer of
indirection. But that usually will create another problem. -- David
Wheeler

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

On Mar 10, 6:01 pm, "John Rowland"
wrote:
wrote:

How will they enforce a no left turn? Doesn't make sense unless they
physcially block the left side of the road where it joins the 406.
Wouldn't put it past them however.

Your name spelt backwards is "Rat Lob".

And yours spelt in any direction is "muppet"

B2003

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

John Rowland wrote:
I was just looking at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...aces/2259.aspx
and I noticed that Natal Road, which usefully gets you right up to the
Brownlow Rd/A406 junction without experiencing any traffic jams when both of
those roads are utterly clogged, is going to have a forced left turn to
Bowes Road, making it useless.

And anyone travelling from Arnos Grove along Bowes Road and wanting to
get onto the A406 Westbound will need to do a big loop via Warwick Road
and Bounds Green Road (assuming it's possible to turn right onto Bounds
Green Road from Warwick Road, that is) or, worse, right down to the
Cambridge Roundabout and do a U-turn!

And anyone who currently turns right from Telford Road into Station Road
will need to do a similarly huge loop via Warwick Road/Brownlow Road and
Bounds Green Road.

What is *needed* for that stretch of the A406 is a much more substantial
upgrade to bring it in line with the rest of the road, but of course
that ain't gonna happen because that would actually be *useful*.

Cheers,

Barry

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

Barry Salter wrote:


What is *needed* for that stretch of the A406 is a much more substantial
upgrade to bring it in line with the rest of the road, but of course
that ain't gonna happen because that would actually be *useful*.


Useful being shorthand for 'hugely expensive, disruptive,
environmentally damaging and a throwback to the failed ideas of the
1960s when people thought urban motorways were a good idea'.

Tom

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

Tom Barry wrote:
Barry Salter wrote:


What is *needed* for that stretch of the A406 is a much more
substantial upgrade to bring it in line with the rest of the road, but
of course that ain't gonna happen because that would actually be
*useful*.


Useful being shorthand for 'hugely expensive, disruptive,
environmentally damaging and a throwback to the failed ideas of the
1960s when people thought urban motorways were a good idea'.

Useful being a shorthand for "it's the only section of the A406 that has
yet to be upgraded and the proposed scheme will do **** all to reduce
the traffic jams that occur for much of the day as a result, in fact
it'll probably make it worse in exactly the same way as the 2004
'improvements' to the Great Cambridge Junction has."

Said 'improvements' comprised:

+ A new bus lane along Silver Street between Windmill Road and the
roundabout

+ Banning the left turn from Silver Street onto the A406 Eastbound,
meaning traffic either has to travel the entire length of Silver Street
or go all the way round the roundabout, which results in a significant
number of drivers making an illegal left turn, often straight in front
of a bus.

+ Making Taplow Road one way, so traffic from the A406 Eastbound wishing
to head along the A111 (Hedge Lane) has to go round the roundabout.

+ Making the roundabout end of the A111 one way, so traffic wishing to
head along the A10 Northbound has to go down Taplow Road and onto the
roundabout.

And, more recently:

+ Installing traffic lights at the roundabout with wholly inappropriate
phasing, resulting in even more tailbacks on the approaches.

But hey, what do I know? I just live in the area and have to put up with
the daily traffic jams travelling to and from work.

Cheers,

Barry

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

Barry Salter wrote:
John Rowland wrote:
I was just looking at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...aces/2259.aspx

And anyone travelling from Arnos Grove along Bowes Road and wanting to
get onto the A406 Westbound will need to do a big loop via Warwick
Road and Bounds Green Road (assuming it's possible to turn right onto
Bounds Green Road from Warwick Road, that is)

It is possible.

or, worse, right down
to the Cambridge Roundabout and do a U-turn!

No, you would either cut though Palmers Road and Inverforth Road or you
could go through Seafield Road. Incidentally you have the same conundrum in
reverse now, because the left turn from Telford Road to Bowes Road is
currently banned. But the fact that Station Road and Bowes Road (nearly)
meet at their west ends means very few people have to do this anyway.

And anyone who currently turns right from Telford Road into Station
Road will need to do a similarly huge loop via Warwick Road/Brownlow
Road and Bounds Green Road.

Right turn from Browlow Rd to Bounds Green Road currently banned. I don't
see using Warwick Road as a hardship, the bigger problem is having to endure
jams in Bounds Green Road.

What is *needed* for that stretch of the A406 is a much more
substantial upgrade to bring it in line with the rest of the road,
but of course that ain't gonna happen because that would actually be
*useful*.

It doesn't need to be 50mph + flyovers like the rest of the road, but it
does need to have capacity increases at the junctions. Three lanes forward
with 50% green time at 30mph would equal the capacity of the 2 lane 50mph
underpasses between the Cambridge Roundabout and Barking, wouldn't it? And
it would require a fraction of the demolition of the underpass scheme. Is
there an online resource for working out junction capacity?

The Bounds Green Road junction could be grade separated without demolishing
a thing.

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

Barry Salter wrote:

2004 'improvements' to the Great Cambridge Junction."

Said 'improvements' comprised:

+ Banning the left turn from Silver Street onto the A406 Eastbound,
meaning traffic either has to travel the entire length of Silver
Street or go all the way round the roundabout, which results in a
significant number of drivers making an illegal left turn, often
straight in front of a bus.

I don't see how you can say banning cars from doing a left turn in front of
a bus causes them to do an illegal left turn in front of a bus. Anyway, are
you sure that banned left turn doesn't date from the construction of the
underpass? Its purpose is surely to prevent traffic from the A10 s/b to the
A406 e/b from cutting through Kendal Parade, which is a reasonably noble
cause.

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

John Rowland wrote:
I was just looking at
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/proj...aces/2259.aspx
and I noticed that Natal Road, which usefully gets you right up to the
Brownlow Rd/A406 junction without experiencing any traffic jams when both of
those roads are utterly clogged, is going to have a forced left turn to
Bowes Road, making it useless. I also notice that they are banning the left
turn from the NCR to Melville Gardens, which is currently a very handy
escape route when the A406 here is clogged (which is most of the time).

That's not a new plan, it's been knocking around for years. Enfield
Council are also making the side roads between Melville Gardens and
Wolves Lane one way to match the ones in neighbouring Haringey. The 2
roads nearest the NCR will be one way in the opposite direction to the NCR.

As nice as am sure it is for drivers to cut through off Melville Gardens
and through from there it can be a pain for those of us living around there

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

Stuart wrote:

As nice as am sure it is for drivers to cut through off Melville
Gardens and through from there it can be a pain for those of us
living around there

If they fixed the main junctions, Melville Gardens could be left open for
the people who live there and also as an escape route for rare occasions
when the NCR screws up, without it being the 24/7 rat run it is now. It is
noticeable that the traffic jam always ends at exactly Melville Gardens
because it acts like an overflow hole in a sink. Blocking Melville will
cause the jam to reach back to the Cambridge, and Pasteur Gardens will then
be the overflow, bothering more people than now.

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

On 11 Mar, 09:50, Tom Barry wrote:
Barry Salter wrote:

What is *needed* for that stretch of the A406 is a much more substantial
upgrade to bring it in line with the rest of the road, but of course
that ain't gonna happen because that would actually be *useful*.

Useful being shorthand for 'hugely expensive, disruptive,
environmentally damaging and a throwback to the failed ideas of the
1960s when people thought urban motorways were a good idea'.

Tom

"Failed" - sorry, I didn't catch your reason why you think they've
failed?

East London with it's A12, A406 and A13 is way easier to traverse than
any other part of London. If you've ever lived in central London (zone
1) and tried to escape London by car, you'll know that you REALLY
appreciate these "failed" roads. And before you ask why I would be
using a car, have you ever tried to get to remote parts of the country
without a car?

Living in South London with its failed public transport and its
failed, inadequate road system and its failed connectivity with the
rest of the country, I would very much like one of these "hideous",
"disruptive", "environmentally damaging" and "useless" roads to help
me carve my way through areas of FAILED infrastructure planning.

It's about time that NIMBYs stopped preventing progress and causing
the rest of the Londoners to actually be able to do the business they
plan to do, rather than having their time wasted by congestion (on the
roads / rails or otherwise).

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009, wrote:

On 11 Mar, 09:50, Tom Barry wrote:
Barry Salter wrote:

What is *needed* for that stretch of the A406 is a much more
substantial upgrade to bring it in line with the rest of the road, but
of course that ain't gonna happen because that would actually be
*useful*.

Useful being shorthand for 'hugely expensive, disruptive,
environmentally damaging and a throwback to the failed ideas of the
1960s when people thought urban motorways were a good idea'.

"Failed" - sorry, I didn't catch your reason why you think they've
failed?

East London with it's A12, A406 and A13 is way easier to traverse than
any other part of London.

And is vile, in large part because it's been dismembered by tarmac.

If you've ever lived in central London (zone
1) and tried to escape London by car,

Then you're mental. What's your point?

you'll know that you REALLY appreciate these "failed" roads. And before
you ask why I would be using a car, have you ever tried to get to remote
parts of the country without a car?

Yes, frequently and successfully.

Living in South London with its failed public transport and its failed,
inadequate road system and its failed connectivity with the rest of the
country, I would very much like one of these "hideous", "disruptive",
"environmentally damaging" and "useless" roads to help me carve my way
through areas of FAILED infrastructure planning.

It's about time that NIMBYs stopped preventing progress and causing the
rest of the Londoners to actually be able to do the business they plan
to do, rather than having their time wasted by congestion (on the roads
/ rails or otherwise).

Well put: you want mighty roads driven through *other* people's
neighbourhoods for *your* benefit.

tom

--
Gin makes a man mean; let's booze up and riot!

A406 New Southgate to Green Lanes
 

John Rowland wrote:

If they fixed the main junctions, Melville Gardens could be left open for
the people who live there and also as an escape route for rare occasions
when the NCR screws up, without it being the 24/7 rat run it is now.

That is true, the whole thing is a much bigger problem.

I've long thought that the cheapest and least disruptive way to sort the
bottleneck would be to build a flyover (I'm thinking more Chiswick than
Westway) from just after Green Lanes to New Southgate. Put all the
through traffic (or one direction) on that.


It is noticeable that the traffic jam always ends at exactly Melville Gardens
because it acts like an overflow hole in a sink. Blocking Melville will
cause the jam to reach back to the Cambridge, and Pasteur Gardens will then
be the overflow, bothering more people than now.

Often it goe back a lot further than that, weekends for example

"Bumping" an old thread . . .

I regularly use the A406 and consequently have to divert to avoid the Palmers Green/New Southgate traffic jams. At certain times of day going westbound through the area is feasible. Eastbound is never sensible before mid evening.

The current "improvement" scheme is completely inappropriate and may even make things worse. Certainly preventing exits into Melville Gardens and Evesham Road will compel more drivers to sit in the traffic jams and make them bigger. Allowing left turns from Wilmer Way onto Bowes Road will necessitate re-phasing the traffic lights . . . and most alert drivers know what happens when TfL mess about with traffic lights.

The only major benefit I foresee from this scheme is that the left turn from Bowes Road onto Telford Road will at last be two lanes wide. This will undoubtedly reduce the westbound tailback from this junction although it is rumoured that TfL plan to install completely unnecessary new traffic lights at the junction of Bowes Road and Warwick Road which will re-introduce the queuing!

As others have posted, the real requirement here is a major improvement scheme which takes the A406 under the junctions and allows the traffic to flow without interruptions. That will not happen until at long last London gets a mayor who takes transport seriously and is not just out to indulge his prejudices.

Another questionable aspect of the current silly scheme is the extraordinary amount of time it is taking. There is no major civil engineering involved. Why is is taking so long? When is it due to be completed?

They have now blocked the left turn from the A406 into Melville Gardens. It is still possible to drive from Melville Gardens onto the A406. The other day I saw a few very determined motorists make complicated nine-point turns into Melville Gardens to escape from the traffic jam. I was not offended by their irreverence. I admired their bravado.

The cheapest and least disruptive way to sort the bottleneck was the one planned by the Department of Transport in the good old days before we had TfL. That plan was to divert the A406 from Bowes Road across the recreation ground behind the row of shops on the north side of the road and then curve back again into Telford Road.

I'm quite sure that eventually London will have a sensible, responsible Mayor who recognises that London's roads have to function properly and who will consequently make sure that this section of the A406 is improved accordingly. How long we have to wait for that sensible, responsible Mayor is anyone's guess.

I tried using the Natal Road escape route this afternoon and it is currently completely blocked at the junction with Bowes Road. I didn't examine what was going on but most likely they are now carrying out that piece of sabotage you described.

UPDATE: I drove past there last night and was amazed to see that Natal Road has been re-opened at its junction with the A406 Bowes Road.

The new carriageway between Pymmes Close and Green Lanes under the Northern span of the railway bridge has now been opened. The railway bridge was replaced to facilitate this carriageway about 35 years ago! There will inevitably be a bus lane - not yet in operation. The pavement is very wide indeed. I wonder if part of it will be cycle lanes.