Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

Acton Town Hammersmith (D&P) Southall (NR)
Amersham Hanger Lane Sudbury & Harrow Rd (NR)
Bank / Monument Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking Kenton Sudbury Hill Harrow (NR)
Bond Street Liverpool St (LU & NR) Upminster
Camden Road (LO) Mile End Victoria
Camden Town Northwick Park West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) West Ham
Canning Town Park Royal West Hampstead (LU & NR)
Earl's Court Poplar (DLR) Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) Rayners Lane White City
Greenford Royal Victoria (DLR) Wimbledon
Gunnersbury Shepherd's Bush (Cen) Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) Shepherd's Bush (NR) Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given.

Cheers,

Barry

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

[snip list]

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given.


This is all part of the upgrade of the Oyster pay-as-you-go (PAYG)
system to enable it to handle a far more complicated range of journeys
when - eventually - it is accepted on all National Rail (NR) routes in
London. It should perhaps be made clear that this is *not yet* the
case - Oyster PAYG can only be used on some NR routes as detailed on
this TfL webpage (also see the associated PDF map) - you'll see that
this excludes pretty much all NR routes south of the Thames:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

I must admit I'm rather unclear on the meaning of the specific list of
stations given in the original post - perhaps these are just stations
at which the 'variable journey time' system is being trialled? One
would obviously expect it to be implemented everywhere eventually.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Apr 29, 3:06*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

[snip list]

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given..

This is all part of the upgrade of the Oyster pay-as-you-go (PAYG)
system to enable it to handle a far more complicated range of journeys
when - eventually - it is accepted on all National Rail (NR) routes in
London. It should perhaps be made clear that this is *not yet* the
case - Oyster PAYG can only be used on some NR routes as detailed on
this TfL webpage (also see the associated PDF map) - you'll see that
this excludes pretty much all NR routes south of the Thames:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

I must admit I'm rather unclear on the meaning of the specific list of
stations given in the original post - perhaps these are just stations
at which the 'variable journey time' system is being trialled? One
would obviously expect it to be implemented everywhere eventually.

I can't understand why it relates to stations at all, rather than
journeys.

It could mean that there are specific stations where it has been
decided that you could have arrived via what have secretly been
defined as different-length routes, depending on where you touched in.

Does it also apply to the shortening of maximum time, as mentioned in
another thread?

If so, would a journey from, say, Earls Court to Victoria be timed out
sooner than a journey from Gloucester Road to Sloane Square, which are
not affected stations?

(No answers expected, but something big seems to be going on that
really ought to have been announced and explained publicly.)

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to National
Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5
hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be applied
when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was
Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR seson as far as CLJ, then Oyster
PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ:

I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after 13:00.
At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along the
footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to platform
17 and touched out there at 13:59.

The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34 entry
at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I had
spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys - but
how long?

D A Stocks

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

Acton Town * * * * * * *Hammersmith (D&P) * * * Southall (NR)
Amersham * * * * * * * *Hanger Lane * * * * * * Sudbury & Harrow Rd (NR)
Bank / Monument * * * * Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking * * * * * * * * Kenton * * * * * * * * *Sudbury Hill Harrow (NR)
Bond Street * * * * * * Liverpool St (LU & NR) *Upminster
Camden Road (LO) * * * *Mile End * * * * * * * *Victoria
Camden Town * * * * * * Northwick Park * * * * *West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) * *West Ham
Canning Town * * * * * *Park Royal * * * * * * *West Hampstead (LU & NR)
Earl's Court * * * * * *Poplar (DLR) * * * * * *Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) * * * *Rayners Lane * * * * * *White City
Greenford * * * * * * * Royal Victoria (DLR) * *Wimbledon
Gunnersbury * * * * * * Shepherd's Bush (Cen) * Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) * * * Shepherd's Bush (NR) * *Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given.

How does Oyster handle break-of-journey of 15 minutes today, and
will there be future changes? I can't see it offering the flexibility
to, say, break my journey at every station between Victoria and Purley
for no additional cost, as I can today with any walk-up ticket.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On 30 Apr, 01:30, MIG wrote:
I can't understand why it relates to stations at all, rather than
journeys.

My guess is that interchanging at these stations (and touching a
validator) extends your allowable maximum journey time. The inclusion
of eg Earl's Court implies they're going to install interchange
validators there that people making long journeys will have to touch.

U

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Apr 30, 12:06*pm, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:
As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to National
Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5
hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be applied
when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was
Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR season as far as CLJ, then
Oyster PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ:

I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after 13:00..
At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along the
footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to platform
17 and touched out there at 13:59.

The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34 entry
at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I had
spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys - but
how long?


That doesn't make much sense to me at all. The total charge of £1.80
in particular is nonsensical - £1.80 isn't a fare band that currently
applies to PAYG journeys at all - see the fares table on page 5 of
this PDF:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

You should have been charged £2.20 overall - i.e. 2 x £1.10 fares
(there being an out-of-station interchange at Shepherd's Bush).

Normally when you do a trip such as that, when you exit the gates at
Hangar Lane then your first journey would be regarded as having
finished - even if you were to *immediately* re-enter the system
through the gates that would make no difference as it would be
regarded as the start of a new journey.

The only circumstance when this might be different is if you touch-out
on the standalone reader next to a manual gate (or touch-out on
standalone readers at a station without gates). Depending upon how the
standalone reader(s) is/are configured, it *may* be the case that if
you were then to try and touch-in after only a short period of time
then the original journey would be regarded as continuing.
(However I think this would only be the case if said reader(s) were
configured to provide 'soft' entries and exits - ala an interchange
reader - as opposed to one that was only configured to provide 'hard'
entries and exits to the system, as most readers on the DLR are
configured to do. I'm not sure how readers next to manual gates at LU
stations are configured).

However even if you touched-in/out on a standalone reader, then the
time that elapsed between you exiting Hangar Lane and then re-entering
the system there (i.e. almost two hours) is simply too long for any
such confusion to occur.

I therefore wonder if the journeys that you made have somehow become
entangled in the testing of this new 'variable journey time' system -
after all, the journey you made is a pretty standard one, and is not
one that this new system was really seeking to address (the original
maximum journey time used by the Oyster system was two hours).

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Apr 30, 12:11*pm, EE507 wrote:

On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

[snip list of stations]

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given..

How does Oyster handle break-of-journey of 15 minutes today, and
will there be future changes?

It handles it in the same way that it handles breaks of journey under
15 minutes - basically if you 'break your journey' then it becomes two
separate journeys. (At stations without gates, the situation is
potentially more complicated if the standalone Oyster readers are
configured in 'interchange mode' - if so then your original journey
may merely be extended if you recommence it within a relatively short
period of time. See my reply to David Stocks for more on this.)

I can't see it offering the flexibility
to, say, break my journey at every station between Victoria and Purley
for no additional cost, as I can today with any walk-up ticket.

No, it won't offer that flexibility and it's not designed or intended
to offer that flexibility either - 'break of journey' is not a concept
that's part of the Oyster PAYG system.

If you want that flexibility then the answer is simple - buy a paper
ticket! Also, it seems quite possible that NR fares on Oyster PAYG
won't actually be any cheaper than normal paper fares - if so, then
you obviously wouldn't be any worse off for buying a paper ticket
either.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Apr 30, 1:53*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 30 Apr, 01:30, MIG wrote:
I can't understand why it relates to stations at all, rather than
journeys.

My guess is that interchanging at these stations (and touching a
validator) extends your allowable maximum journey time. The inclusion
of eg Earl's Court implies they're going to install interchange
validators there that people making long journeys will have to touch.


Hmm, that's a possible explanation, but I'm not so sure that's the
plan. Though I can't really fathom out the meaning of this list of
stations, apart from thinking that they form a testbed, with a system-
wide rollout yet to come.

I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Cheers,

Barry

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Apr 30, 12:06 pm, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:
As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National
Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5
hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied
when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was
Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR season as far as CLJ, then
Oyster PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ:

I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after
13:00.
At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along
the
footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to
platform
17 and touched out there at 13:59.

The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34
entry
at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I
had
spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys -
but
how long?


That doesn't make much sense to me at all. The total charge of £1.80
in particular is nonsensical - £1.80 isn't a fare band that currently
applies to PAYG journeys at all - see the fares table on page 5 of
this PDF:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

You should have been charged £2.20 overall - i.e. 2 x £1.10 fares
(there being an out-of-station interchange at Shepherd's Bush).

My maths went wrong somewhere ... I was charged £1.10 for a journey from CLJ
to CLJ. The online journey history doesn't acknowledge that I ever went near
SPB or Hanger Lane.

However even if you touched-in/out on a standalone reader, then the
time that elapsed between you exiting Hangar Lane and then re-entering
the system there (i.e. almost two hours) is simply too long for any
such confusion to occur.

I went through the *normal* gates at Hanger Lane. I would have thought this
should have terminated a journey within quite a short time because there is
no possibility of me continuing a journey by some other route from there ...
or maybe there is an out of station interchange (Park Royal?) enabled at
Hanger Lane.

D A Stocks

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.


Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote:

On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...]

In what way?

*[...] And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...]

I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a
shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 -
but that is a big *if*...

[...] Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed
again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that
currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter
permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you!

*If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be
implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all
journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit,
something like that.

I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion
that they're running against the clock on each journey they make,
especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever!

As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to
passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be
based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way
at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc
etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only
logical.


-----
http://groups.google.com/group/uk.tr...f45edc0a25169a

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On 1 May, 16:18, Mizter T wrote:
On May 1, 3:42*pm, MIG wrote:





On 1 May, 15:36, Mizter T wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

Thanks for bring this to the ng's attention though - it provides an
insight of sorts into changes that are happening, if not an actual
explanation!

I am intrigued by the concept of "zones passed through". [...]

In what way?

Zones actually passed through are not currently of concern to the
system, which calculates fares between points as long as the general
timeout hasn't been reached.

My understanding was that it doesn't actually know or care what zones
you pass through as long as you resolve the journey within the time
limit. I would expect it to apply the different time limits similarly
based on a fixed value determined for the start and end points of the
journey, rather than on zones passed through, which it can't know.

(Although there has been discussion of taking into account routes that
the system actually has evidence for, ie when you touch along the
way.)


*[...] And I still
wonder if, say, Mansion House to Victoria will now time out quicker
than Mansion House to St James's Park. [...]

I *very* *much* doubt it. I'd imagine that *if* there was to be a
shorter journey time allowance the same would apply accross zone 1 -
but that is a big *if*...

[...] Because the other discussion
of variable journey time suggested that shorter journey times would
apply as well.

What recent discussion - the recent "Oyster time limit - changed
again?" utl thread[1]? If so, then (going by the five posts that
currently exist make up that thread) the only suggestion that shorter
permissible journey times might apply seems to come from you!

Eh? That thread begain with a link to this
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf
were it states that sometimes the time limit will be 70 minutes. I
thought it used to be 120 minutes, and later increased to 150. If
not, please ignore.

But if not wrong,I am wondering if this means that, if one of the
named stations is the end point, ALL variable journey times, including
shorter ones, will be applied, but that at others they won't be for
the time being.


*If* (again big *if*) shorter permissible journey times were to be
implemented then I doubt it would be anything radical - perhaps all
journeys within zone 1 going back to the two hour time limit,
something like that.

I really don't think people should get worked up about some notion
that they're running against the clock on each journey they make,
especially when such notions are based on no evidence whatsoever!

As can be seen from the generous time allowances that are afforded to
passengers making out-of-station interchanges, the system has to be
based on people who dawdle (go to the wrong platform, go the wrong way
at least for one stop, take a long time climbing the stairs etc etc
etc), it can't be based on people who nip around quickly. That's only
logical.

-----http://groups.google.com/group/uk.transport.london/browse_frm/thread/...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

Mizter T wrote
[snip]
I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly
after
13:00. At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of
[snip]
There is indeed an out-of-station interchange configured between
Hanger Lane and Park Royal - see the list of OSIs here [1]:
http://www.dragondark.co.uk/osi/osi.htm

That might sort-of of explains it. However, an OSI is of course for
people transferring between stations - logically one would have
thought that re-entering the *same* station (especially through the
gates, which provide unambiguous entry and exit points to the system)
would mean any potential OSI considerations on that card were
cancelled and a brand new journey started.

Furthermore, the OSI list above (accurate as of November '08) shows
that up to 25 minutes is allowed for when transferring between Hangar
Lane and Park Royal.

The above journey included another OSI, SPB (Shepherds Bush) which is
new and which I don't know the allowance for but the weird result may
be due to it or to the combination.

Has anyone reported on OSI results when re-entering the *same* station,
eg at Bow Road ?

--
Mike D

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c9cabb$bcb76340$LocalHost@default...

The above journey included another OSI, SPB (Shepherds Bush) which is
new and which I don't know the allowance for but the weird result may
be due to it or to the combination.

I was impressed by the interchange with the Central Line, which is
easier/better than the National Rail to Underground interchanges at most
London termini. However, the OSI at SPB probably allows for people wanting
to get at the Hammersmith & City line as well.

One can begin to understand some of the concerns the TOCs may have about
implementing Oyster on NR. I assume my entry and exit data is stored in a
system somewhere, and I can imagine auditors could have a bit of fun
reconciling this with the three operators involved for the purposes of
revenue allocation ...

D A Stocks

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

Yes, I think that would have to be the case - e.g. so someone exiting
at Hanger Lane for an OSI to Park Royal would get the time limit
adjusted (presumably adding extra time) for the *whole* journey, not
just the first leg. I can't see why else the list would consist mostly
of OSI stations.

The list also suggests that this will apply to intermediate
validators, as it includes stations that have no apparent significance
other than being interchanges at the tip of a 'V' (i.e. where you are
heading out of the zones and then can turn back so you are heading
inwards, or vice versa). This suggests that, for example:

- Travellers from Northwood to Heathrow will have to touch
inetrmediate validators (on the platform/footbridge) at Rayners Lane
and Acton Town, to extend their time limit and so avoid exceeding the
maximum time for a Z3456 journey

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Similarly for Gospel Oak to Barons Court (Z23, touching at
Gunnersbury) and Upper Holloway to Bromley-By-Bow (Z234, touching at
Barking).

Of course, since the (reduced) variable limits aren't applied at the
destination (Bromley-By-Bow in the last example), the time extensions
aren't actually required yet - but presumably this is the first phase
in a phased introduction.

That doesn't explain all of the stations on the list, though - I'm
still mystified as to why odd-ones-out like Bond Street are included.
Perhaps it's just as a trial as part of the phased introduction.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

In article ,
lid (asdf) wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 4, 2:00*pm, asdf wrote:
On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

As Mizter T pointed out, the limits are generous enough that people
aren't likely to be "against the clock" (and my other question about
whether shorter time limits will be applied wasn't meant to imply
that),

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

And in any case, surely that journey would be priced assuming zone 1,
and therefore also timed assuming zone 1? It would be bizarre if
different assumptions about "zones passed through" was applied to
setting fares from setting timeouts.

But there's no point getting worked up about speculation. It's more
worth getting worked up about the fact that a major change seems to be
taking place, but no meaningful information is available about what it
is.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 4, 2:47*pm, MIG wrote:
On May 4, 2:00*pm, asdf wrote:

On Sun, 03 May 2009 18:45:20 -0500,
wrote:

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Where would one touch then? I don't recall seeing any validators on the
District platforms.

I'm assuming some validators will be put in. If it doesn't happen then
my speculation is incorrect (perhaps fortunately - it'd be a pain to
have to remember to touch on the platform).

As Mizter T pointed out, the limits are generous enough that people
aren't likely to be "against the clock" (and my other question about
whether shorter time limits will be applied wasn't meant to imply
that),

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. *Would
they leave their luggage on the train? *It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

And in any case, surely that journey would be priced assuming zone 1,
and therefore also timed assuming zone 1? *It would be bizarre if
different assumptions about "zones passed through" was applied to
setting fares from setting timeouts.

Sorry, it never occurred to me that Earls Court was boundary zone 2,
but it seems that it is.


But there's no point getting worked up about speculation. *It's more
worth getting worked up about the fact that a major change seems to be
taking place, but no meaningful information is available about what it
is.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

MIG wrote:

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

It happens already with some National Rail services - Stratford to Liverpool
Street is covered by PAYG but the barrier readers at stations further up the
line only read for travelcard validity so anyone trying to get an extension
has to do this leaping. It gets worse if the trains use the fast platforms
at Stratford.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Mon, 4 May 2009 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:

(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. Would
they leave their luggage on the train? It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

You wouldn't have to leap off the train - the intermediate validation
would only need to be done at a station where you were changing trains
anyway.

Essentially, I'm guessing (from the list of stations provided) that,
for example, the Z23456 time limit will be enough to travel Z6 - Z2,
but not (necessarily, perhaps in the event of delays) enough to travel
Z6 - Z2 - Z6. So at the interchange station in Z2 (where you "turn
back" and start heading outwards again), there would be a validator to
touch which would extend your time.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 4, 3:14*pm, asdf wrote:
On Mon, 4 May 2009 06:47:33 -0700 (PDT), MIG wrote:
(If people really had to leap out of trains to touch validators at
places like Earls Court it would hardly be healthy or safe. *Would
they leave their luggage on the train? *It would be too bonkers even
for TfL under the rules of Oyster.)

You wouldn't have to leap off the train - the intermediate validation
would only need to be done at a station where you were changing trains
anyway.

Essentially, I'm guessing (from the list of stations provided) that,
for example, the Z23456 time limit will be enough to travel Z6 - Z2,
but not (necessarily, perhaps in the event of delays) enough to travel
Z6 - Z2 - Z6. So at the interchange station in Z2 (where you "turn
back" and start heading outwards again), there would be a validator to
touch which would extend your time.

My mind was leaping to an imaginary situation where in future you
might need to do this on a straight through journey from, say, 6 to
6. But I am still confused as to whether the time limits will be
applied to the assumed pair of start and end points or to a different
measure from the way that fares are assigned.

If the end points works for fares, then why couldn't every point to
point journey for which a fare is defined also have a time limit
defined, such that Heathrow to Wimbledon Park wouldn't need to have
just a standard 2 - 6 timeout?

Speculation overload.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

As an Oyster PAYG holder who lives outside the Network Card area let alone
Z1-6, could you please advise me what the time limits currently are. Are
they available on Tfls website?


--
Regards John

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

MIG wrote
[...]
If the end points works for fares, then why couldn't every point to
point journey for which a fare is defined also have a time limit
defined, such that Heathrow to Wimbledon Park wouldn't need to have
just a standard 2 - 6 timeout?

Speculation overload.

Indeed, exactly that may eventually be in place BUT the day of the week
is involved too.

quoting from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the shortest journeys on
Monday to
Friday and four hours for some longer journeys on Sunday.
==

Paul Corfield has suggested that the extra routes added for full PAYG
on NR will require the fare charged to take into account intermediate
validators touched, so doing the same for timeout purposes seems
likely.

I think enhancing the Oyster journey history to include all touches
would be needed too.

--
Mike D

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

John wrote:
- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

As an Oyster PAYG holder who lives outside the Network Card area let
alone Z1-6, could you please advise me what the time limits currently
are. Are they available on Tfls website?

Time limits are given on page 3 of the "Fares and Tickets" leaflet,
available for download from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx. Oddly,
however, the main download and Large Print version differ in their
definitions!

The Large Print version states: "Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and
National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within two and a
half hours of you having touched in at the start of your journey. If the
time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your journey.
If this happens, you will need to call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

The "normal" version, however, states: "Your Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed
within a time limit from when you touched in at the start of your
journey. The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the shortest
journeys on Monday to Friday and four hours for some longer journeys on
Sunday. If the time between touching in and touching out at the end of
your journey is more than the time limit you will be charged more than
the Oyster single fare for your journey. If this happens, you will need
to call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

At present, it's the former version that applies, though it would be
hoped that TfL would provide more notice of the proposal to introduce a
variable time limit than just including it in the Fares and Tickets
leaflet (after all, how many people take the time to read it?).

Cheers,

Barry

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 5, 4:20*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
John wrote:
- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

As an Oyster PAYG holder who lives outside the Network Card area let
alone Z1-6, could you please advise me what the time limits currently
are. Are they available on Tfls website?

Time limits are given on page 3 of the "Fares and Tickets" leaflet,
available for download from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx. Oddly,
however, the main download and Large Print version differ in their
definitions!

The Large Print version states: "Your Tube, DLR, London Overground and
National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed within two and a
half hours of you having touched in at the start of your journey. If the
time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half hours
you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your journey.
If this happens, you will need to call the Oyster helpline for assistance.."

The "normal" version, however, states: "Your Tube, DLR, London
Overground and National Rail pay as you go journey must be completed
within a time limit from when you touched in at the start of your
journey. The time limit varies between 70 minutes for the shortest
journeys on Monday to Friday and four hours for some longer journeys on
Sunday. If the time between touching in and touching out at the end of
your journey is more than the time limit you will be charged more than
the Oyster single fare for your journey. If this happens, you will need
to call the Oyster helpline for assistance."

At present, it's the former version that applies, though it would be
hoped that TfL would provide more notice of the proposal to introduce a
variable time limit than just including it in the Fares and Tickets
leaflet (after all, how many people take the time to read it?).

I suppose the latter version applies as well, because all journeys are
between 70 and 240 minutes if they are set at 150 minutes.

Maybe if it's in the leaflet for long enough before any variations are
implemented, they'll be able to claim that there has been no change to
the rules.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 3, 2:29*pm, asdf wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:
One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

Yes, I think that would have to be the case - e.g. so someone exiting
at Hanger Lane for an OSI to Park Royal would get the time limit
adjusted (presumably adding extra time) for the *whole* journey, not
just the first leg. I can't see why else the list would consist mostly
of OSI stations.

The list also suggests that this will apply to intermediate
validators, as it includes stations that have no apparent significance
other than being interchanges at the tip of a 'V' (i.e. where you are
heading out of the zones and then can turn back so you are heading
inwards, or vice versa). This suggests that, for example:

- Travellers from Northwood to Heathrow will have to touch
inetrmediate validators (on the platform/footbridge) at Rayners Lane
and Acton Town, to extend their time limit and so avoid exceeding the
maximum time for a Z3456 journey

- Travellers from Upminster Bridge to Epping will have to touch at
West Ham or Mile End for a time extension to avoid overrunning the
Z(2)3456 limit

- Travellers from Heathrow to Wimbledon Park will have to touch at
Earls Court to avoid overrunning the Z23456 limit.

Similarly for Gospel Oak to Barons Court (Z23, touching at
Gunnersbury) and Upper Holloway to Bromley-By-Bow (Z234, touching at
Barking).

Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 5, 8:49*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Fri, 1 May 2009 07:36:10 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

On May 1, 11:38*am, Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Thanks Barry. So it only applies to journeys ending at the
aforementioned stations, eh... I presume it would also inevitably
apply to people making out-of-station interchanges (OSIs) between
these two stations as well, as the Oyster reader on the gate obviously
can't mind read what the passenger's intentions are.

I'm sure all will become clear over time.

I think I can provide a partial answer although the list of stations is
somewhat perplexing.

There are two new concepts being introduced for Oyster later this year -
the ability to select "en route" a cheaper fare by validating at an
intermediate LUL station. Rayners Lane is the classic example. We have
discussed this concept before on utl.

Indeed we have. You only mention "intermediate LUL station[s]", but
I'd think that the same principle would (or at least could) apply on
NR. (Though even pondering on how some journeys south of the river
will pan out is enough to give one a headache!)

And I guess this 'en route' validation principle is the same that will
solve the "Shepherd's Bush question" - no, not the question of which
actual bush is the eponymous shepherd's [1], instead that of ensuring
passengers who change from the Central line onto London Overground for
the WLL/NLL don't pay zone 1 fares (the problem case that's been
raised here in the past is that of Greenford - Shepherd's Bush -
Willesden Jn - Camden Road, though other similar journeys are also
affected), as passing through the two sets of gates at Shepherd's Bush
(LU and LO/WLL stations) would presumably provide the required 'en
route' validation.


The other - which seems to bear more relationship to this list - is
"Oyster Extension Permits". These will be added to Oyster cards when
people using PAYG exit the LUL system on the presumption that they will
continue by NR. A possible example journey would be Bond Street to
Orpington changing at London Bridge - on exit at LOB the permit would be
set by the LUL gate and would be read and accepted by the validator or
gate for the NR side of the station. Although the gates would act as a
OSI to avoid generating a second charge the permit, IIRC, is the
mechanism that will trigger the much longer journey time limit as one
accepted by the NR gate it is quite likely that passengers may be
waiting for a relatively infrequent train. * This is why there is to be
a much expanded and more flexible maximum journey time concept which
varies by zone but also by time of day and day of week - if you think
about it is entirely logical.

It is indeed.


Don't ask me to advise on how long the interchange timings will be
because I honestly do not know.

A number of LU stations in West London are test beds for the new
software and staff are making journeys to test whether the new longer
times work properly.

So I can be a smug git and say "I thought as much", as I made the
suggestion this was likely a trial of the systems elsewhere on this
thread! ;-)


An additional PAYG OSI is to be established between Kilburn and
Brondesbury from May 17th.

Good, more OSIs are to be encouraged! I'm not sure how much passengers
know about them though - the only place they are hinted at is on the
Tube map, and that's only some of them. I wonder if this is a
precursor of Kilburn and Brondesbury being shown on the Tube map as
being a 'distant interchange' (for want of a better term - perhaps
'walkable interchange'? - though that'd exclude wheelchair users).


Shepherds Bush Central also becomes part of "London BR" (or whatever
it's called these days) to allow valid cross London interchange between
LUL and NR services on through tickets - just as Tottenham Hale, Ealing
Broadway and Stratford are.

"London BR" or "London Brit Rail" became "London Terminals" when BR
bit the dust.

However, that's *not* the term you're looking for! "London Terminals"
are (more or less) just that - the terminal stations. What you're
speaking of is the far wider list of stations that are eligible start
and end points for cross-London transfer by Tube/DLR, this applies to
NR tickets which are marked with a Maltese cross or dagger symbol (or
whatever it is!) in the "Route" field.

Said list of stations can be seen on this NRE webpage - click on the
"show Station List" link to, er, see it!
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

Including the Shepherd's Bushes on this list is progress - I recall a
discussion somewhere (here, I think) where someone was complaining
about the absurdity of being allowed to use Kensington Olympia as a
start/end point for cross-London transfer, but not being allowed to
use Shepherd's Bush for this purpose. So hooray for a this small
common sense victory!


The £3 charge for all new Oyster cards (regardless of product) also
comes in on 17th May - there are certainly posters on the network
advising of this change.

Yes, I saw an on-train poster on the Vic line about this today.

So the 17th May is the date when *all* the changes to the Oyster PAYG
system 'go live' then?

(Well, all the changes apart from all the TOCs finally joining in -
I've seen suggestions that might not happen until next year! Why am I
not surprised!)


Scarily it is nearly 7 years since the first Oyster cards came in to
use!

I distinctly remember an acquaintance proudly brandishing a flashy new
Oyster card back in the early days when they were only being issued to
holders of annual Travelcards. I wonder how many of those early
adopters have ditched seasons altogether in favour of PAYG now... a
fair few I reckon.


Hope the above helps a little bit.

It does, thanks. This thread was suffering somewhat from a dose of
speculation overload!


-----
[1] Apologies for the potential misuse of "eponymous", I'm not quite
sure if I've used the term legitimately here but I decided to take a
chance!

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:

Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On 7 May, 07:49, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

This raises the old Bank mystery in my mind again ... I wonder if
correspondingly one will be expected to touch during journeys via zone
1 that are normally priced as not via zone 1 (or else get penalty
fared) ... or whether all such journeys will be redefined as via zone
1 by default unless you touch elsewhere on the way?

I am thinking of DLR-related journeys that could be via Bank or
Stratford, but there must be other examples.

Still speculation overload.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 7, 11:53*am, MIG wrote:
On 7 May, 07:49, asdf wrote:



On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

This raises the old Bank mystery in my mind again ... I wonder if
correspondingly one will be expected to touch during journeys via zone
1 that are normally priced as not via zone 1 (or else get penalty
fared) *... or whether all such journeys will be redefined as via zone
1 by default unless you touch elsewhere on the way?

Presumeably the only way to make passengers validate their oyster mid-
journey would be to increase the standard fare to a via Z1 level fare
and keep it at the higher rate unless the oyster card is validated at
a non-Z1 station which proves that they did not travel via zone 1. If
it was the other way round, people would simply travel via zone 1 and
not bother validating their oyster to confirm the route.

I am thinking of DLR-related journeys that could be via Bank or
Stratford, but there must be other examples.

Still speculation overload.

Presumeably the validation en-route would only take place at a station
where interchange *has to* take place, I can't imagine it being a very
popular idea for people to pile off a NLL service at Gospel Oak, just
to validate their oyster, and then rush back to the train only to find
that it's left without them. Incidently where would you validate your
oyster on that kind of route to prove that you weren't just travelling
from stratford to Willesden Junction via Z1?

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 7, 7:49*am, asdf wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

From what I understand of the concept the intermediate validators
would only be located on "natural" interchange routes at logical
interchanges where people can legitimately change to avoid entering
Zone 1 or by validating they would indicate they have taken a route
that would be priced to avoid Zone 1. I have seen nothing that
indicates enforced validation by making people get off trains or
anything like that. Providing the facility gives people the option to
select a lower fare when the "normal" price is set via Zone 1 - the
PAYG system being is modified to hold more than one fare for origin
and destination pairs and the intermediate validation record is the
means of triggering the lower fare. I have read nothing that
indicates that Zone 1 pricing will become a default position thus
requiring extra validation nor have I read anything about mid point
validation except where people switch from LUL to NR (see below).

Earls Court is a zonal boundary point so is a valid turnback point for
some journeys in West London that might be priced via Notting Hill
Gate and yet people may opt to go via Olympia or Hammersmith. An
example might be Fulham Broadway to Shepherds Bush Central. The
highest frequency route would be via NHG but is in Zone 1. Clearly
there are lower frequency routes via West Brompton or even via Earls
Ct and Olympia or via Hammersmith. Being able to record you are going
via Zone 2 only is beneficial. Please note these are my own ramblings
and not an official example.

Mile End is a turn back point in Zone 2 between Central and District
lines so has some merit in being on the list. Bond Street I can't
fathom in terms of anything clever about pricing or journey time
limits.

The variable time limit is all to do with Oyster Extension Permits
being recorded on Oyster cards upon exit from the LUL system where
people can change on to NR trains. The acceptance of the permit at the
NR side of the interchange would mean one through journey was being
charged as well as permitting a much longer total journey time to
reflect longer journey times and potentially longer waits due to lower
frequency NR services.

I suspect none of the above will stop the rampant speculative
capabilities of utl but one can try!

--
Paul C
via Google

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On 7 May, 13:05, D DB 90001 wrote:
On May 7, 11:53*am, MIG wrote:





On 7 May, 07:49, asdf wrote:

On Tue, 5 May 2009 16:17:40 -0700 (PDT), D DB 90001 wrote:
Surely they are not expecting passengers to validate oysters in the
middle of the journy?!!!! It's complicated enough at interchange
stations about whether you need to touch in or out, making it
compulsory to validate the oyster in the middle of a journey where
there are no barriers would be even more confusing. Surely if you
touch in at Wimbledon and out at Heathrow the system would be
configured so that a greater journey time was allowed to take account
of the doubling back. Why should it be up to the passenger to take
responsiblity for it when it could be automated. I seriously doubt
that there would be a mandatory oyster validation requirement for
passengers mid-journey. That's non-sensical.

From Paul C's informative post, it appears that the reason for the
software upgrade at stations like Rayners Lane is to allow passengers
to get a cheaper fare by taking a longer route avoiding Zone 1, rather
than anything to do with variable time limits.

This would still involve validation mid-journey, of course.

This still leaves a few unexplained stations on the list (Mile End,
Earl's Court, Bond Street, etc), but perhaps a few extra ones were
just included for testing purposes.

This raises the old Bank mystery in my mind again ... I wonder if
correspondingly one will be expected to touch during journeys via zone
1 that are normally priced as not via zone 1 (or else get penalty
fared) *... or whether all such journeys will be redefined as via zone
1 by default unless you touch elsewhere on the way?

Presumeably the only way to make passengers validate their oyster mid-
journey would be to increase the standard fare to a via Z1 level fare
and keep it at the higher rate unless the oyster card is validated at
a non-Z1 station which proves that they did not travel via zone 1. If
it was the other way round, people would simply travel via zone 1 and
not bother validating their oyster to confirm the route.

I am thinking of DLR-related journeys that could be via Bank or
Stratford, but there must be other examples.

Still speculation overload.

Presumeably the validation en-route would only take place at a station
where interchange *has to* take place, I can't imagine it being a very
popular idea for people to pile off a NLL service at Gospel Oak, just
to validate their oyster, and then rush back to the train only to find
that it's left without them. Incidently where would you validate your
oyster on that kind of route to prove that you weren't just travelling
from stratford to Willesden Junction via Z1?- Hide quoted text -

Lewisham to Bethnal Green is currently priced not via zone 1, assuming
changing at Stratford (or quite a few possibilities involving
interchanges, eg Canary Wharf and West Ham).

An hypothesis, not tested by me, is that if you currently did touch at
Bank, you'd get charged the via zone 1 fare.

This is a clear example of two reasonable options, both of which
involve an interchange with a validator available.

(If the untested hypothesis is correct, then there wouldn't need to be
a different system in place to implement the change, just a change to
the default price.)

For the NLL example, it would indeed be a problem. Maybe they'd have
to leave it as not via zone 1 by default.

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey
time of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum
will be applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled
through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and
reads as follows:

Acton Town Hammersmith (D&P) Southall (NR)
Amersham Hanger Lane Sudbury & Harrow Rd
(NR)
Bank / Monument Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking Kenton Sudbury Hill Harrow
(NR)
Bond Street Liverpool St (LU & NR) Upminster
Camden Road (LO) Mile End Victoria
Camden Town Northwick Park West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) West Ham
Canning Town Park Royal West Hampstead (LU &
NR)
Earl's Court Poplar (DLR) Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) Rayners Lane White City
Greenford Royal Victoria (DLR) Wimbledon
Gunnersbury Shepherd's Bush (Cen) Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) Shepherd's Bush (NR) Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

I have made a FOI request to TfL for more details on what these variable
journey times are - below is the answer.

*****
For most journeys made with Oyster pay as you go, a standard maximum
time limit of 150 minutes currently applies at all times.

However, as part of plans to extend Oyster pay as you go to the
remainder of National Rail stations in London, we have agreed with the
National Rail train companies that we will have arrangement in which
Maximum Journey Times (MJTs) vary;

(a) by day/time of travel and
(b) according the number of zone boundaries crossed in the journey.

The new variable Maximum Journey Times require an update to the Oyster
software and this new software is now being rolled out progressively for
test purposes. At the time of this reply variable Maximum Journey Times
apply for journeys made to any of approximately 50 test stations
[presumably the stations Barry has listed above]. Depending on the
success of future test stages we plan to have the variable Maximum
Journey Times active system-wide by September. The table below
summarises how the variable Maximum Journey Times work (times in
minutes).

Monday - Friday before 1900 hrs
Travel within one zone - 70 mins
Each additional zone (e.g. a journey from Zone 6 to Zone 6 via Zone 1,
would be 10 additional zones) - 10 mins

Monday to Friday after 1900 and Saturday
Travel within one zone - 77 mins
Each additional zone - 11 mins

Sunday
Travel within one zone - 84 mins
Each additional zone - 12 mins
*****

Peter Smyth

Oyster on National Rail - Variable Minimum Journey Times
 

On May 9, 10:32*am, "Peter Smyth" wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:

Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey
time of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum
will be applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled
through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and
reads as follows:

Acton Town * * * * * * *Hammersmith (D&P) * * * Southall (NR)
Amersham * * * * * * * *Hanger Lane * * * * * * Sudbury & Harrow Rd
(NR)
Bank / Monument * * * * Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking * * * * * * * * Kenton * * * * * * * * *Sudbury Hill Harrow
(NR)
Bond Street * * * * * * Liverpool St (LU & NR) *Upminster
Camden Road (LO) * * * *Mile End * * * * * * * *Victoria
Camden Town * * * * * * Northwick Park * * * * *West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) * *West Ham
Canning Town * * * * * *Park Royal * * * * * * *West Hampstead (LU &
NR)
Earl's Court * * * * * *Poplar (DLR) * * * * * *Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) * * * *Rayners Lane * * * * * *White City
Greenford * * * * * * * Royal Victoria (DLR) * *Wimbledon
Gunnersbury * * * * * * Shepherd's Bush (Cen) * Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) * * * Shepherd's Bush (NR) * *Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

I have made a FOI request to TfL for more details on what these variable
journey times are - below is the answer.

*****
For most journeys made with Oyster pay as you go, a standard maximum
time limit of 150 minutes currently applies at all times.

However, as part of plans to extend Oyster pay as you go to the
remainder of National Rail stations in London, we have agreed with the
National Rail train companies that we will have arrangement in which
Maximum Journey Times (MJTs) vary;

(a) by day/time of travel and
(b) according the number of zone boundaries crossed in the journey.

The new variable Maximum Journey Times require an update to the Oyster
software and this new software is now being rolled out progressively for
test purposes. At the time of this reply variable Maximum Journey Times
apply for journeys made to any of approximately 50 test stations
[presumably the stations Barry has listed above]. Depending on the
success of future test stages we plan to have the variable Maximum
Journey Times active system-wide by September. The table below
summarises how the variable Maximum Journey Times work (times in
minutes).

Monday - Friday before 1900 hrs
Travel within one zone - 70 mins
Each additional zone (e.g. a journey from Zone 6 to Zone 6 via Zone 1,
would be 10 additional zones) - 10 mins

Monday to Friday after 1900 and Saturday
Travel within one zone - 77 mins
Each additional zone - 11 mins

Sunday
Travel within one zone - 84 mins
Each additional zone - 12 mins
*****

Peter Smyth


Thanks Peter for making that request and sharing the outcome with us,
that's very helpful. It all seems very sensible and reasonable.