Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

Acton Town Hammersmith (D&P) Southall (NR)
Amersham Hanger Lane Sudbury & Harrow Rd (NR)
Bank / Monument Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking Kenton Sudbury Hill Harrow (NR)
Bond Street Liverpool St (LU & NR) Upminster
Camden Road (LO) Mile End Victoria
Camden Town Northwick Park West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) West Ham
Canning Town Park Royal West Hampstead (LU & NR)
Earl's Court Poplar (DLR) Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) Rayners Lane White City
Greenford Royal Victoria (DLR) Wimbledon
Gunnersbury Shepherd's Bush (Cen) Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) Shepherd's Bush (NR) Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given.

Cheers,

Barry

On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

[snip list]

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given.


This is all part of the upgrade of the Oyster pay-as-you-go (PAYG)
system to enable it to handle a far more complicated range of journeys
when - eventually - it is accepted on all National Rail (NR) routes in
London. It should perhaps be made clear that this is *not yet* the
case - Oyster PAYG can only be used on some NR routes as detailed on
this TfL webpage (also see the associated PDF map) - you'll see that
this excludes pretty much all NR routes south of the Thames:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

I must admit I'm rather unclear on the meaning of the specific list of
stations given in the original post - perhaps these are just stations
at which the 'variable journey time' system is being trialled? One
would obviously expect it to be implemented everywhere eventually.

On Apr 29, 3:06*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:

Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

[snip list]

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given..

This is all part of the upgrade of the Oyster pay-as-you-go (PAYG)
system to enable it to handle a far more complicated range of journeys
when - eventually - it is accepted on all National Rail (NR) routes in
London. It should perhaps be made clear that this is *not yet* the
case - Oyster PAYG can only be used on some NR routes as detailed on
this TfL webpage (also see the associated PDF map) - you'll see that
this excludes pretty much all NR routes south of the Thames:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx

I must admit I'm rather unclear on the meaning of the specific list of
stations given in the original post - perhaps these are just stations
at which the 'variable journey time' system is being trialled? One
would obviously expect it to be implemented everywhere eventually.

I can't understand why it relates to stations at all, rather than
journeys.

It could mean that there are specific stations where it has been
decided that you could have arrived via what have secretly been
defined as different-length routes, depending on where you touched in.

Does it also apply to the shortening of maximum time, as mentioned in
another thread?

If so, would a journey from, say, Earls Court to Victoria be timed out
sooner than a journey from Gloucester Road to Sloane Square, which are
not affected stations?

(No answers expected, but something big seems to be going on that
really ought to have been announced and explained publicly.)

"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to National
Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5
hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be applied
when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was
Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR seson as far as CLJ, then Oyster
PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ:

I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after 13:00.
At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along the
footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to platform
17 and touched out there at 13:59.

The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34 entry
at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I had
spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys - but
how long?

D A Stocks

On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

Acton Town * * * * * * *Hammersmith (D&P) * * * Southall (NR)
Amersham * * * * * * * *Hanger Lane * * * * * * Sudbury & Harrow Rd (NR)
Bank / Monument * * * * Hayes & Harlington (NR) Sudbury Hill
Barking * * * * * * * * Kenton * * * * * * * * *Sudbury Hill Harrow (NR)
Bond Street * * * * * * Liverpool St (LU & NR) *Upminster
Camden Road (LO) * * * *Mile End * * * * * * * *Victoria
Camden Town * * * * * * Northwick Park * * * * *West Drayton (NR)
Canary Wharf (LU & DLR) Paddington (LU & NR) * *West Ham
Canning Town * * * * * *Park Royal * * * * * * *West Hampstead (LU & NR)
Earl's Court * * * * * *Poplar (DLR) * * * * * *Westminster
Euston (LU & NR) * * * *Rayners Lane * * * * * *White City
Greenford * * * * * * * Royal Victoria (DLR) * *Wimbledon
Gunnersbury * * * * * * Shepherd's Bush (Cen) * Wood Lane
Hammersmith (C&H) * * * Shepherd's Bush (NR) * *Woolwich Arsenal (DLR)

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given.

How does Oyster handle break-of-journey of 15 minutes today, and
will there be future changes? I can't see it offering the flexibility
to, say, break my journey at every station between Victoria and Purley
for no additional cost, as I can today with any walk-up ticket.

On 30 Apr, 01:30, MIG wrote:
I can't understand why it relates to stations at all, rather than
journeys.

My guess is that interchanging at these stations (and touching a
validator) extends your allowable maximum journey time. The inclusion
of eg Earl's Court implies they're going to install interchange
validators there that people making long journeys will have to touch.

U

On Apr 30, 12:06*pm, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Barry Salter" wrote:
As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to National
Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time of 2.5
hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be applied
when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

It looks like I might have benefited from this last week. My journey was
Brighton to Hanger Lane return, using my NR season as far as CLJ, then
Oyster PAYG via Shepherd's Bush. From CLJ:

I touched in on platform 16 at 10:34.

I touched out at SPB (NR) and almost then in on the Central line.

I touched out at Hanger Lane at about 11:10.

I then reversed the journey from Hanger Lane starting shortly after 13:00..
At CLJ I arrived on platform 2, and I had had got most of the way along the
footbridge when I realised I had forgotten to touch out. I went to platform
17 and touched out there at 13:59.

The weird part is that the online journey history only shows the 10:34 entry
at CLJ and the 13:59 exit at CLJ, total charge £1.80. I assume that if I had
spent longer at Hanger Lane it would have got split into two journeys - but
how long?


That doesn't make much sense to me at all. The total charge of £1.80
in particular is nonsensical - £1.80 isn't a fare band that currently
applies to PAYG journeys at all - see the fares table on page 5 of
this PDF:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

You should have been charged £2.20 overall - i.e. 2 x £1.10 fares
(there being an out-of-station interchange at Shepherd's Bush).

Normally when you do a trip such as that, when you exit the gates at
Hangar Lane then your first journey would be regarded as having
finished - even if you were to *immediately* re-enter the system
through the gates that would make no difference as it would be
regarded as the start of a new journey.

The only circumstance when this might be different is if you touch-out
on the standalone reader next to a manual gate (or touch-out on
standalone readers at a station without gates). Depending upon how the
standalone reader(s) is/are configured, it *may* be the case that if
you were then to try and touch-in after only a short period of time
then the original journey would be regarded as continuing.
(However I think this would only be the case if said reader(s) were
configured to provide 'soft' entries and exits - ala an interchange
reader - as opposed to one that was only configured to provide 'hard'
entries and exits to the system, as most readers on the DLR are
configured to do. I'm not sure how readers next to manual gates at LU
stations are configured).

However even if you touched-in/out on a standalone reader, then the
time that elapsed between you exiting Hangar Lane and then re-entering
the system there (i.e. almost two hours) is simply too long for any
such confusion to occur.

I therefore wonder if the journeys that you made have somehow become
entangled in the testing of this new 'variable journey time' system -
after all, the journey you made is a pretty standard one, and is not
one that this new system was really seeking to address (the original
maximum journey time used by the Oyster system was two hours).

On Apr 30, 12:11*pm, EE507 wrote:

On Apr 29, 2:36*pm, Barry Salter wrote:
Hi folks,

As has been reported in the past, the extension of Oyster PAYG to
National Rail will see an end to the current fixed maximum journey time
of 2.5 hours for certain journeys. Instead, a *variable* maximum will be
applied when you touch out, based on the zones travelled through.

The latest list of stations affected by this has now appeared, and reads
as follows:

[snip list of stations]

Note, however, that the definition of the variable maximums isn't given..

How does Oyster handle break-of-journey of 15 minutes today, and
will there be future changes?

It handles it in the same way that it handles breaks of journey under
15 minutes - basically if you 'break your journey' then it becomes two
separate journeys. (At stations without gates, the situation is
potentially more complicated if the standalone Oyster readers are
configured in 'interchange mode' - if so then your original journey
may merely be extended if you recommence it within a relatively short
period of time. See my reply to David Stocks for more on this.)

I can't see it offering the flexibility
to, say, break my journey at every station between Victoria and Purley
for no additional cost, as I can today with any walk-up ticket.

No, it won't offer that flexibility and it's not designed or intended
to offer that flexibility either - 'break of journey' is not a concept
that's part of the Oyster PAYG system.

If you want that flexibility then the answer is simple - buy a paper
ticket! Also, it seems quite possible that NR fares on Oyster PAYG
won't actually be any cheaper than normal paper fares - if so, then
you obviously wouldn't be any worse off for buying a paper ticket
either.

On Apr 30, 1:53*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 30 Apr, 01:30, MIG wrote:
I can't understand why it relates to stations at all, rather than
journeys.

My guess is that interchanging at these stations (and touching a
validator) extends your allowable maximum journey time. The inclusion
of eg Earl's Court implies they're going to install interchange
validators there that people making long journeys will have to touch.


Hmm, that's a possible explanation, but I'm not so sure that's the
plan. Though I can't really fathom out the meaning of this list of
stations, apart from thinking that they form a testbed, with a system-
wide rollout yet to come.

I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

Mizter T wrote:

I wonder if Mr Salter (the OP) might be so kind as to divulge where
this information came from?

One of those pesky "private and not for publication" type internal
documents, which gives no information as to *why* the stations in
question were chosen, it just says that journeys *ENDING* at said
stations will be subject to a variable maximum journey time, depending
on the zones passed through.

Cheers,

Barry