In article cbdb0206-4847-455b-af10-3e344d0db8d5
@o30g2000vbc.googlegroups.com, says...

Unfortunately even if they extend crossrail to Reading it still can't
replace all the stopping services because there are 2 stopping
services an hour from Oxford which call at many of the intermediate
stations. So then you would either have to electrify the line to
Oxford (ooh, look a flying pig) or more realistically terminate slow
Oxford services at Reading and inconvenience passengers from
intermediate stations between Reading and Oxford. Of course there is
the option of running the Oxford slow services under the wires on the
slows but this would take up valuable crossrail paths and of course
result in more diesels under wires which is a waste of fuel.

Or they could do as the Bedwyn services do and stop until Reading and
then run fast into Paddington. This assumes that capacity can be found
on the main lines for 90mph services between the 125mph service.

Duncan

On May 5, 10:50*pm, Duncan wrote:
In article cbdb0206-4847-455b-af10-3e344d0db8d5
@o30g2000vbc.googlegroups.com, says...

Unfortunately even if they extend crossrail to Reading it still can't
replace all the stopping services because there are 2 stopping
services an hour from Oxford which call at many of the intermediate
stations. So then you would either have to electrify the line to
Oxford (ooh, look a flying pig) or more realistically terminate slow
Oxford services at Reading and inconvenience passengers from
intermediate stations between Reading and Oxford. Of course there is
the option of running the Oxford slow services under the wires on the
slows but this would take up valuable crossrail paths and of course
result in more diesels under wires which is a waste of fuel.

Or they could do as the Bedwyn services do and stop until Reading and
then run fast into Paddington. This assumes that capacity can be found
on the main lines for 90mph services between the 125mph service.

Duncan

But this still wouldn't be an ideal outcome, Oxford already has fast
services calling at Reading and Slough only, and passengers for
intermediate stations would need to change at Reading, so you might as
well terminate the service at Reading, but this would reduce the tph
from Oxford to Paddington from 4 to 2. Incidently the current Oxford
fast services are commonly 165s or 166s anyway so there are already 2
paths an hour for 90mph stock, whether there is any room for more than
that is debateable.

"D DB 90001" wrote

But this still wouldn't be an ideal outcome, Oxford already has fast
services calling at Reading and Slough only, and passengers for
intermediate stations would need to change at Reading, so you might as
well terminate the service at Reading, but this would reduce the tph
from Oxford to Paddington from 4 to 2. Incidently the current Oxford
fast services are commonly 165s or 166s anyway so there are already 2
paths an hour for 90mph stock, whether there is any room for more than
that is debateable.

We're looking 8 years ahead, as Crossrail won't open before 2017. While
Crossrail trains won't convey passengers from London beyond Maidenhead, or
perhaps Twyford, it should be worth running them through to Reading, to
connect from intermediate stations into trains running further west, and to
save having to run dmus on the Relief Lines. Intermediate stations Tilehurst
to Cholsey, also Appleford to Radley, would lose their off-peak through
trains to Paddington, though this wouldn't be much of a loss, as passengers
mostly change at Reading on to a fast. In the peaks there could well be
trains from Oxford or Didcot which stop to Reading, then run fast to
Paddington (and these should be 125 mph stock - IEP anyone?

Crossrail trains shouldn't be all stations west of Paddington. It probably
wouldn't be too much of a loss if there were no through trains to Bourne End
or Henley - many passengers would be able to get a through train from a
central or east London Crossrail station to Maidenhead or Twyford, so they
would be saved the Paddington interchange at the expense of a change at
Maidenhead or Twyford.

Peter

On May 6, 12:19*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"D DB 90001" wrote



But this still wouldn't be an ideal outcome, Oxford already has fast
services calling at Reading and Slough only, and passengers for
intermediate stations would need to change at Reading, so you might as
well terminate the service at Reading, but this would reduce the tph
from Oxford to Paddington from 4 to 2. Incidently the current Oxford
fast services are commonly 165s or 166s anyway so there are already 2
paths an hour for 90mph stock, whether there is any room for more than
that is debateable.

We're looking 8 years ahead, as Crossrail won't open before 2017. While
Crossrail trains won't convey passengers from London beyond Maidenhead, or
perhaps Twyford, it should be worth running them through to Reading, to
connect from intermediate stations into trains running further west, and to
save having to run dmus on the Relief Lines. Intermediate stations Tilehurst
to Cholsey, also Appleford to Radley, would lose their off-peak through
trains to Paddington, though this wouldn't be much of a loss, as passengers
mostly change at Reading on to a fast. In the peaks there could well be
trains from Oxford or Didcot which stop to Reading, then run fast to
Paddington (and these should be 125 mph stock - IEP anyone?

Crossrail trains shouldn't be all stations west of Paddington. It probably
wouldn't be too much of a loss if there were no through trains to Bourne End
or Henley - many passengers would be able to get a through train from a
central or east London Crossrail station to Maidenhead or Twyford, so they
would be saved the Paddington interchange at the expense of a change at
Maidenhead or Twyford.

Peter

The main losers would be stations between Oxford and Reading which
would lose out on direct London services and also no direct services
to intermediate stations, which is a shame, but it is probably easier
for everyone else if they just change at Reading. And yes, it would
only be a change at Twyford or Maidenhead instead of a change at
Paddington, and changing at Twyford is a lot simpler than a change at
Paddington.

On May 5, 11:48*pm, D DB 90001
wrote:
But this still wouldn't be an ideal outcome, Oxford already has fast
services calling at Reading and Slough only, and passengers for
intermediate stations would need to change at Reading, so you might as
well terminate the service at Reading, but this would reduce the tph
from Oxford to Paddington from 4 to 2.

No it wouldn't - there are already only 2tph from Oxford to Paddington
in any meaningful sense, as unless you're a great lover of spending
time on 16x-es instead of at your destination, waiting for the next
fast train is always the best option.[*]

Splitting the slow trains into a 2tph Oxford-Reading stopping shuttle
and a 2tph Reading-London extra Crossrail would only be a significant
inconvenience for passengers from stations west of Reading seeking
intermediate stations between Reading and Paddington (as if you want
to go from Goring to Paddington, you'll change onto a fast train at
Reading anyway).
[*] well, actually getting the next fast train to Reading, whether
it's XC or FGW, and then the next fast train to Paddington, whether
that involves changing or not, is the fastest option, but it only
saves you a few minutes compared with waiting for the direct fasts.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On May 6, 12:08*pm, wrote:
On May 5, 11:48*pm, D DB 90001
wrote:

But this still wouldn't be an ideal outcome, Oxford already has fast
services calling at Reading and Slough only, and passengers for
intermediate stations would need to change at Reading, so you might as
well terminate the service at Reading, but this would reduce the tph
from Oxford to Paddington from 4 to 2.

No it wouldn't - there are already only 2tph from Oxford to Paddington
in any meaningful sense, as unless you're a great lover of spending
time on 16x-es instead of at your destination, waiting for the next
fast train is always the best option.[*]

Splitting the slow trains into a 2tph Oxford-Reading stopping shuttle
and a 2tph Reading-London extra Crossrail would only be a significant
inconvenience for passengers from stations west of Reading seeking
intermediate stations between Reading and Paddington (as if you want
to go from Goring to Paddington, you'll change onto a fast train at
Reading anyway).

Well, yes it's not a major inconvenience for passengers travelling to
Paddington, and since most passengers are presumeably travelling to
Paddington they won't be affected by the change because they will
either change at Reading as they usually do, or simply catch a fast
train from Oxford instead. It's only a more significant inconvenience
for passengers travelling from Twyford to Tilehurst, for example, who
would have a twenty minute journey replaced with 2 10 minute journeys
seperated by an inconvenient change at Reading.

On May 6, 12:08*pm, wrote:

On May 5, 11:48*pm, D DB 90001
wrote:

But this still wouldn't be an ideal outcome, Oxford already has fast
services calling at Reading and Slough only, and passengers for
intermediate stations would need to change at Reading, so you might as
well terminate the service at Reading, but this would reduce the tph
from Oxford to Paddington from 4 to 2.

No it wouldn't - there are already only 2tph from Oxford to Paddington
in any meaningful sense, as unless you're a great lover of spending
time on 16x-es instead of at your destination, waiting for the next
fast train is always the best option.[*]

[snip]

Except that (if I've got this right) in the evening peak you can use
off-peak tickets on the slower Turbo services but not on the HSTs, at
least for journeys leaving London - though to outsiders this
information is rather hard to come by.

On 6 May, 17:49, Mizter T wrote:
Except that (if I've got this right) in the evening peak you can use
off-peak tickets on the slower Turbo services but not on the HSTs, at
least for journeys leaving London - though to outsiders this
information is rather hard to come by.

Posters are up & visible at Paddington.....
And that is unlikely to change under Crossrail - just that they'll
need to change trains at Maidenhead / Reading.to get to Oxford in the
evening peak.

On 6 May, 18:01, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Chris" wrote
It won't be cross-platform - fast London's will leave from current
platforms 8 & 9, the slows / crossrail would be from the 3 extra
platforms (behind current Plat 9 and a further island platform to the
north of that.

AIUI existing 5 & 8 will be the Down Main platforms, 9 and a new face
opposite it will be theUp Main platforms, and the Relief/Crossrail platforms
will be two new islands beyond that.

You are correct - I got my current platform numbers in a mess!

On 6 May, 18:39, Roland Perry wrote:
I thought the residents in the vicinity of Maidenhead were opposed to
the ugly looking OHL? Or have they come to terms with it now.

Do they have any choice? Permitted development on the railways means
that they don't need planning permissions....

On 6 May, 20:22, GazK wrote:
Oh yeah? Do you know just how large these two projects are? Not a hope
in hell.....

Sorry to contradict, but they are being developed by a single NR team,
with a single manager at the helm. I know this to be true because he
gave a presentation last week, at which I was present.

Thanks for this update.

On 7 May, 09:05, "DW downunder" noname wrote:
4. NO-ONE has mentioned the plethora of hybrid battery-equipped rollingstock
currently prototyped, on trial, in low volume production etc around the
world. Given Crossrail's gestation, can I assert with some confidence that
by then it will be quite normal for trains to extend a moderate distance
beyond the wires or juice rail. 25kV to Reading would not necessarily be a
pre-requisite to CrossRail service by the mid-10s.


As a mechanism purely for getting ECS Crossrail stockl to / from the
Rwading Depot & Maidenhead - yes, I guess this would be a possibility.

5. Also absent from discussion so far has been AirTrack. In some other
forums, we hear that BAA are firmly behind AirTrack. AIUI, provision has
been made in the Heathrow 5 station box for them.

Correct.

The discussion suggests
that HConn/Crossrail will run through to Reading via H5 and AirTrack.

Hmmm - brains trying to do overtime again?.....not a chance! Why on
earth would the DfT want to spend a lot extra on dual-voltage systems
to enable Crossrail to run on the third-rail system? Secondly,
AirTrack will be a BAA service, just like HEx - so BAA will purchase &
run their own trains for their services....not state-owned Crossrail
trains.

Those
with local route knowledge can fill me in here, but once the link is made,
basically would dual-voltage stock (one assumes Bombardier will have
recovered from their supply line and quality management difficulties by
then - ) provide a through Crossrail all-electric service?

Getting the Crossrail stock from the new Platform at REading back to
it's depot will also be somewhat of a challenge, as there is no
connector in the plans from the Airtrack line into Reading with high-
nuumbered Reading platforms, and thus a route to the depot. It's self-
contained. There is also an AirTrack depot shown in those plans, but I
can't remember where it was to be located....

The enhancements of the track at Reading as part of
the £425 million station redevelopment would also pave the way for Airtrack
trains to use the station. Network Rail is also working with the Department
for Transport and British Airports Association (BAA) on the scheme to
connect passengers directly to Terminal 5.

Yup - that's the new platform on the south-east side of Reading
together with the BAA-owned route into the airport.
\Nothing to back up the Crossrail stock being used there.

6. Given the time frames for Crossrail, and the rather modest scope of
AirTrack in comparison, could it be that AirTrack is up, and through
electric services running Paddington - Reading before Crossrail starts?

Quite likely - another reason that it won't be using Crossrail stock.
It won't be built in time....

7. While HConn only goes to H123 (old H Central, made more sense!), AIUI
that's a commercial decision. The AirTrack scheme clearly envisages
HConn/Crossrail coming into the H5 box and extending west out of it.

Proof please - just where does it state or heavily hint this is the
case? I understood they will be using separate platforms at T5, with
no connections.

What
happens to HEx and links to H123 then would be influenced by the commercial
imperitives of the day.

Possibly - but currently BAA have a long contract with the DfT, and by
extension, NR, to run HEx services to HCen & T5.
Something BAA won't give up unless *they* want to do so.

"Chris" wrote in message
...
On 6 May, 17:49, Mizter T wrote:
Except that (if I've got this right) in the evening peak you can use
off-peak tickets on the slower Turbo services but not on the HSTs, at
least for journeys leaving London - though to outsiders this
information is rather hard to come by.

Posters are up & visible at Paddington.....
And that is unlikely to change under Crossrail - just that they'll
need to change trains at Maidenhead / Reading.to get to Oxford in the
evening peak.

On 6 May, 18:01, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Chris" wrote
It won't be cross-platform - fast London's will leave from current
platforms 8 & 9, the slows / crossrail would be from the 3 extra
platforms (behind current Plat 9 and a further island platform to the
north of that.

AIUI existing 5 & 8 will be the Down Main platforms, 9 and a new face
opposite it will be theUp Main platforms, and the Relief/Crossrail
platforms
will be two new islands beyond that.

You are correct - I got my current platform numbers in a mess!

On 6 May, 18:39, Roland Perry wrote:
I thought the residents in the vicinity of Maidenhead were opposed to
the ugly looking OHL? Or have they come to terms with it now.

Do they have any choice? Permitted development on the railways means
that they don't need planning permissions....

On 6 May, 20:22, GazK wrote:
Oh yeah? Do you know just how large these two projects are? Not a hope
in hell.....

Sorry to contradict, but they are being developed by a single NR team,
with a single manager at the helm. I know this to be true because he
gave a presentation last week, at which I was present.

Thanks for this update.

On 7 May, 09:05, "DW downunder" noname wrote:
4. NO-ONE has mentioned the plethora of hybrid battery-equipped
rollingstock
currently prototyped, on trial, in low volume production etc around the
world. Given Crossrail's gestation, can I assert with some confidence that
by then it will be quite normal for trains to extend a moderate distance
beyond the wires or juice rail. 25kV to Reading would not necessarily be a
pre-requisite to CrossRail service by the mid-10s.


As a mechanism purely for getting ECS Crossrail stockl to / from the
Rwading Depot & Maidenhead - yes, I guess this would be a possibility.

5. Also absent from discussion so far has been AirTrack. In some other
forums, we hear that BAA are firmly behind AirTrack. AIUI, provision has
been made in the Heathrow 5 station box for them.

Correct.

The discussion suggests
that HConn/Crossrail will run through to Reading via H5 and AirTrack.

Hmmm - brains trying to do overtime again?.....not a chance! Why on
earth would the DfT want to spend a lot extra on dual-voltage systems
to enable Crossrail to run on the third-rail system? Secondly,
AirTrack will be a BAA service, just like HEx - so BAA will purchase &
run their own trains for their services....not state-owned Crossrail
trains.

Those
with local route knowledge can fill me in here, but once the link is made,
basically would dual-voltage stock (one assumes Bombardier will have
recovered from their supply line and quality management difficulties by
then - ) provide a through Crossrail all-electric service?

Getting the Crossrail stock from the new Platform at REading back to
it's depot will also be somewhat of a challenge, as there is no
connector in the plans from the Airtrack line into Reading with high-
nuumbered Reading platforms, and thus a route to the depot. It's self-
contained. There is also an AirTrack depot shown in those plans, but I
can't remember where it was to be located....

The enhancements of the track at Reading as part of
the £425 million station redevelopment would also pave the way for
Airtrack
trains to use the station. Network Rail is also working with the
Department
for Transport and British Airports Association (BAA) on the scheme to
connect passengers directly to Terminal 5.

Yup - that's the new platform on the south-east side of Reading
together with the BAA-owned route into the airport.
\Nothing to back up the Crossrail stock being used there.

6. Given the time frames for Crossrail, and the rather modest scope of
AirTrack in comparison, could it be that AirTrack is up, and through
electric services running Paddington - Reading before Crossrail starts?

Quite likely - another reason that it won't be using Crossrail stock.
It won't be built in time....

7. While HConn only goes to H123 (old H Central, made more sense!), AIUI
that's a commercial decision. The AirTrack scheme clearly envisages
HConn/Crossrail coming into the H5 box and extending west out of it.

Proof please - just where does it state or heavily hint this is the
case? I understood they will be using separate platforms at T5, with
no connections.

Some of the comments from online dox:
A.
http://www.heathrowairport.com/asset...w_Brochure.pdf
1) "Other benefits of the new, environmentally friendly
services include:
improved rail services in areas to the west of
London and in the Thames Valley
improved public transport access for the local
community to Heathrow Airport and its associated
transport connections into London including
Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect and London
Underground services ... "

2) "BAA also has an aspiration to extend the Heathrow
Express service to Staines. This would mean an
additional two trains per hour in each direction. ... "

3) "The purpose of this addendum to the initial public
consultation brochure is to clarify how Heathrow
Airtrack trains could be powered and the options
that are being considered.
Overhead Line or Third Rail Electrification?
At the Heathrow Terminal 5 station it is not feasible,
for technical reasons, to operate Heathrow Airtrack
trains with third rail electrification. Therefore trains
in the Terminal 5 station and tunnels will be powered
using overhead line electrification (OHLE). OHLE
involves a system of supports to hold electric cables
some 4-5 metres above the tracks. This system
is currently used by Heathrow Express trains operating
between London Paddington and Heathrow Airport.
As the existing rail network uses third rail electrification
it will be necessary to change from third rail to OHLE
at some point between the Heathrow Terminal 5
station and the rail network in Staines.
The Options
Three options for making the change from OHLE to
third rail electrification are currently being considered:
1 change over as close to the tunnel entrance as
possible, while trains are moving. It is possible that
in this option the overhead lines may not need
to extend onto the SSSI at Staines Moor
2 change over from OHLE to third rail electrification
at the new Staines High Street station, while trains
are stationary
3 run OHLE all the way to the existing Staines station.
This option would allow Heathrow Express services,
which currently use OHLE, to operate to the
existing Staines station and is favoured by BAA
for that reason
In addition, the adaptation of the current rolling
stock used by Heathrow Express is being considered.
If it is possible to adapt the trains, the need to extend
OHLE to the existing Staines station could be avoided.
One of the benefits of extending the Heathrow
Express service to the existing Staines station
is that there would be a direct service from Staines
to London Paddington. Passengers using other
services from London Waterloo would also benefit
from a more frequent service to Heathrow Airport,
as they would be able to interchange at Staines
station and board a Heathrow Express train. ... "

B.

On 7 May, 13:43, "DW downunder" noname wrote:

C.http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/60

5) "TfL would like Airtrack "to be developed in a way that is consistent
with the possible extension of some Crossrail trains to Staines via
Heathrow." [TfL response to South Western franchise specification] "

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/1#Stations This is about Crossrail
...

This means that Crossrail would only run to Heathrow Central and Terminal
4 - not to Terminal 5. Passengers would be able to transfer at Heathrow
Central to the Heathrow Express for free connections to T5.

Hmmm - TfL have their work cut out getting BAA / NR / DfT to take that
on board, then!!! :-)

www.alwaystouchout.com appears to be a personal blogspot, and
therefore about as reliable as this forum, which at least has some
informed people on here.