Harsh words you may think. Not after you read this.

See my message "What should I do to my Season ticket for the next 2.5
months? Help" from a few weeks ago to see what this is about.

As you will know, if you followed that thread, I was looking forward
to paying just £107.18 following requesting a changeover ticket. I had
a Z12 annual, at the old prices, starting 31 December 2009, ending 30
December 2009, which cost me £968.

As from today, I wanted to be Z123. As there were 233 days left on the
old ticket I was expecting a credit of £617.45 for the old ticket, a
charge of £724.63 for the new ticket, making a difference to pay of
£107.18.

I was then going to change it back to Z12 at the end of July but that
is irrelevant to this particular problem.

Anyway, I went to Moorgate, but they said I would need to fill in a
form and wait a week. I said that I thought that as they were the
issuing station they could do it then and there (see other thread).
They said that Mansion House was in fact the issuing station. I then
remembered that I was indeed in Mansion House at the time, so thanked
them and got the tube to Mansion House.

There I found a very helpful lady who confirmed that it was the
issuing station. But when I showed her my calculations, she said that
the figures I showed her were wrong. She said that the credit for the
old ticket was not £617.45 but £651.10. I asked her whether she was
absolutely sure, she said yes. Well, I'm not going to argue with that.
So she worked out that I would only end up paying £724.63 minus
£651.10 which comes to £73.53. Result!! Even cheaper.

She gave me the pad for me to type in my PIN number. Out came a new
Gold card for Z123 (and indeed dated 31 December 2008 to 30 December
2009 although oddly had £1208 on it, which is this year's figure).

I then looked at the receipt that was printed out after typing in the
PIN. I was worried that it said "Please debit my account by £651.10. I
asked why, she said that there is also a refund and showed me the
other receipt. Which said:

Travelcard/Std/Full/Adult/Z13/12Mths
31/12/08 - 30/12/09
My Oyster number £1208.00


*** REFUNDS ***
Travelcard/Std/Full/Adult/Z12/12Mths
My Oyster number -£561.90
Admin charge £5

___________
TOTAL £651.10
SWITCH (with issue) £651.10


She was really helpful until then (to the extent I had been thinking
about turning up next day with a "Thank You" card for sorting it all
out so quickly) but was now getting stroppy because she had to go
home. "You'll be refunded this bit" she kept saying, pointing at the -
£561.

Errm, no. I won't. Because she's got £1208 at the top, so £651 is
according to this receipt what I have just paid, AFTER taking away
£561.90. But she was having none of it and the black screen went
down.

I ran upstairs, called my bank (First Direct) who told me indeed
£651.10 was about to go through, but no sign of any refunt.

Today, no refund. And I am now livid, because I can't afford to be
without that money more than a day or two, I have my mortgage coming
out on Thursday and that's going to take me well overdrawn. I go back
downstairs. A new member of staff is now behind the window who knows
nothing about this. But I see Teresa through the window about to
leave, and she assures me that it will be refunded.

Please, what do I do. I need this all sorted asap. Yes, my Oystercard
is working Z123 today and according to the touchpad will be valid
until 30 December. But there are so many anomalies here.

Namely: where did £561.90 come from??? This is neither the £617.45 I
had worked out as being £2.65 x 233 days refund, nor any other figure
I had been shown.

Why does she keep insisting that this £561.90 is still to be refunded
when I can see clearly on the receipt that it has been taken from
£1208 to create the £651.10 I have already been charged (plus the £5
admin fee).

Why am I being charged so much, when I was told by her that I was
typing in my PIN for just £73.53??

I am really really livid about this. I could do with some quick advice
before I go down there after work. And if Teresa isn't there, I'm just
going to be met by someone who won't have a clue what I'm on about and
will probably just tell me to ring some helpline or other. Help!!!
This is so unfair.

TRISTÁN

wrote in message
...
Harsh words you may think. Not after you read this.

See my message "What should I do to my Season ticket for the next 2.5
months? Help" from a few weeks ago to see what this is about.

As you will know, if you followed that thread, I was looking forward
to paying just £107.18 following requesting a changeover ticket. I had
a Z12 annual, at the old prices, starting 31 December 2009, ending 30
December 2009, which cost me £968.

As from today, I wanted to be Z123. As there were 233 days left on the
old ticket I was expecting a credit of £617.45 for the old ticket, a
charge of £724.63 for the new ticket, making a difference to pay of
£107.18.

I was then going to change it back to Z12 at the end of July but that
is irrelevant to this particular problem.

Anyway, I went to Moorgate, but they said I would need to fill in a
form and wait a week. I said that I thought that as they were the
issuing station they could do it then and there (see other thread).
They said that Mansion House was in fact the issuing station. I then
remembered that I was indeed in Mansion House at the time, so thanked
them and got the tube to Mansion House.

There I found a very helpful lady who confirmed that it was the
issuing station. But when I showed her my calculations, she said that
the figures I showed her were wrong. She said that the credit for the
old ticket was not £617.45 but £651.10. I asked her whether she was
absolutely sure, she said yes. Well, I'm not going to argue with that.
So she worked out that I would only end up paying £724.63 minus
£651.10 which comes to £73.53. Result!! Even cheaper.

She gave me the pad for me to type in my PIN number. Out came a new
Gold card for Z123 (and indeed dated 31 December 2008 to 30 December
2009 although oddly had £1208 on it, which is this year's figure).

I then looked at the receipt that was printed out after typing in the
PIN. I was worried that it said "Please debit my account by £651.10. I
asked why, she said that there is also a refund and showed me the
other receipt. Which said:

Travelcard/Std/Full/Adult/Z13/12Mths
31/12/08 - 30/12/09
My Oyster number £1208.00


*** REFUNDS ***
Travelcard/Std/Full/Adult/Z12/12Mths
My Oyster number -£561.90
Admin charge £5

___________
TOTAL £651.10
SWITCH (with issue) £651.10


She was really helpful until then (to the extent I had been thinking
about turning up next day with a "Thank You" card for sorting it all
out so quickly) but was now getting stroppy because she had to go
home. "You'll be refunded this bit" she kept saying, pointing at the -
£561.

Errm, no. I won't. Because she's got £1208 at the top, so £651 is
according to this receipt what I have just paid, AFTER taking away
£561.90. But she was having none of it and the black screen went
down.

I ran upstairs, called my bank (First Direct) who told me indeed
£651.10 was about to go through, but no sign of any refunt.

Today, no refund. And I am now livid, because I can't afford to be
without that money more than a day or two, I have my mortgage coming
out on Thursday and that's going to take me well overdrawn. I go back
downstairs. A new member of staff is now behind the window who knows
nothing about this. But I see Teresa through the window about to
leave, and she assures me that it will be refunded.

Please, what do I do. I need this all sorted asap. Yes, my Oystercard
is working Z123 today and according to the touchpad will be valid
until 30 December. But there are so many anomalies here.

Namely: where did £561.90 come from??? This is neither the £617.45 I
had worked out as being £2.65 x 233 days refund, nor any other figure
I had been shown.

Why does she keep insisting that this £561.90 is still to be refunded
when I can see clearly on the receipt that it has been taken from
£1208 to create the £651.10 I have already been charged (plus the £5
admin fee).

Why am I being charged so much, when I was told by her that I was
typing in my PIN for just £73.53??

I am really really livid about this. I could do with some quick advice
before I go down there after work. And if Teresa isn't there, I'm just
going to be met by someone who won't have a clue what I'm on about and
will probably just tell me to ring some helpline or other. Help!!!
This is so unfair.

TRISTÁN
=================================

Credit Card machines always display the amount you are going to be debited
BEFORE you type in your pin. Trouble is many people who work in shops
don't know this, or ignore it. They just keep pushing buttons until the
pin screen appears and then ask you to enter your pin. If I haven't seen
the amount on the screen I am handed I always reject the transaction and ask
them (nicely) to start again so I can see what I'm "pinning" for. I never,
ever believe what they say they've entered.

On 12 May, 22:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
SNIP
This may all be too late and you may be sorted out given you were going
back to the station but if not give my route a try. If you get stuck let
me know and I'll see if I can get someone to read through your posts and
then to check what happened.

Thanks - I'm going to give your route a try.

I went there last night, with a printout of my First Direct bank
account to prove that indeed I had been debited £651 instead of £100
and change, and that nothing had been credited.

Teresa this time was really rude, and she again looked at the receipt
and said that it showed that I had been refunded. I said clearly it
hadn't, and that it had been debited from my account. She said no, a
debit meant that the money had been refunded to me(!)

She was also laughing as she was telling me this, but in a sneery way,
as though I were an idiot for suggesting that it's not a refund. I
reminded her that I actually work in finance and I know perfectly well
what the difference is between debit and credit, and that as far as I
am concerned, it's a debit, hence I've paid it. She still didn't get
it.

She then swiped my Oyster card and said that all she could refund me
was £722.90 (no idea where this number is plucked from) but then I
would have no season ticket. I was aghast. I had the equivalent of
£617.45 credit on there two days ago, she charges me £651.10 and then
says that she could refund me £722.90 and no season ticket. I
explained that somewhere along the road £543.92 has disappeared into a
black hole. She then got stroppy, said that I shouldn't have asked her
to try and get it sorted out quickly and that I should have sent a
form off (eh??) and then said that she wouldn't be able to refund me
anything because the card has now become so mucked up.

I told her I didn't want a refund, I want £543.92 back AND to keep my
Z123 season ticket until 30 December thank you very much(!)

So there you go. I'll give your advice a go. Thanks! The good thing is
I still have my old Gold Card so I can prove I had the card, should
for some reason it be completely wiped clean from the history on
Oyster.

TRISTÁN

On Wed, 13 May 2009 02:09:08 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On 12 May, 22:55, Paul Corfield wrote:
SNIP
This may all be too late and you may be sorted out given you were going
back to the station but if not give my route a try. If you get stuck let
me know and I'll see if I can get someone to read through your posts and
then to check what happened.

Thanks - I'm going to give your route a try.

If that doesn't work, have you called First Direct again and explained
your concerns? I've always found them to be excellent about things
like this and when I've made a bollox of my account (NOT that you have
in this case) they have been very good. They may be able to
temporarily extend/create your overdraft so it's not such a problem.
Sorry if this is all completely obvious, just trying to suggest
another option...

Something I do which you might want to consider is to always get
something like this, anything big really, on a credit card. Easier to
argue with afterwards and more legal protection.

I'll remember Graham's advice about amounts as well, not something
I've really thought about, but I do try to see what they're typing
when it's a separate terminal.

Richard.

Richard wrote:

I'll remember Graham's advice about amounts as well, not something
I've really thought about, but I do try to see what they're typing
when it's a separate terminal.

Except LU don't use a "separate" terminal. Like Cubic FasTIS(+) for
National Rail, which is the "grown up" version of LU's Ticket Office
system, the PED is driven from the PC.

Cheers,

Barry

Graham Harrison wrote

BEFORE you type in your pin. Trouble is many people who work in
shops
don't know this, or ignore it. They just keep pushing buttons until
the
pin screen appears and then ask you to enter your pin. If I haven't
seen
the amount on the screen I am handed I always reject the transaction
and ask
them (nicely) to start again so I can see what I'm "pinning" for. I
never,
ever believe what they say they've entered.

Every "pin screen' I have ever seen shows the amount (top right
usually) the only point at which I have had to look very carefully is
when customer services is giving me a refund.

Now if every machine let you put the card the same way round and they
agreed on top or bottom too that would be much better.

--
Mike D

wrote:
Harsh words you may think. Not after you read this.

See my message "What should I do to my Season ticket for the next 2.5
months? Help" from a few weeks ago to see what this is about.

As you will know, if you followed that thread, I was looking forward
to paying just £107.18 following requesting a changeover ticket. I had
a Z12 annual, at the old prices, starting 31 December 2009, ending 30
December 2009, which cost me £968.

As from today, I wanted to be Z123. As there were 233 days left on the
old ticket I was expecting a credit of £617.45 for the old ticket, a
charge of £724.63 for the new ticket, making a difference to pay of
£107.18.

I was then going to change it back to Z12 at the end of July but that
is irrelevant to this particular problem.

Anyway, I went to Moorgate, but they said I would need to fill in a
form and wait a week. I said that I thought that as they were the
issuing station they could do it then and there (see other thread).
They said that Mansion House was in fact the issuing station. I then
remembered that I was indeed in Mansion House at the time, so thanked
them and got the tube to Mansion House.

There I found a very helpful lady who confirmed that it was the
issuing station. But when I showed her my calculations, she said that
the figures I showed her were wrong. She said that the credit for the
old ticket was not £617.45 but £651.10. I asked her whether she was
absolutely sure, she said yes. Well, I'm not going to argue with that.
So she worked out that I would only end up paying £724.63 minus
£651.10 which comes to £73.53. Result!! Even cheaper.

She gave me the pad for me to type in my PIN number. Out came a new
Gold card for Z123 (and indeed dated 31 December 2008 to 30 December
2009 although oddly had £1208 on it, which is this year's figure).

I then looked at the receipt that was printed out after typing in the
PIN. I was worried that it said "Please debit my account by £651.10. I
asked why, she said that there is also a refund and showed me the
other receipt. Which said:

Travelcard/Std/Full/Adult/Z13/12Mths
31/12/08 - 30/12/09
My Oyster number £1208.00


*** REFUNDS ***
Travelcard/Std/Full/Adult/Z12/12Mths
My Oyster number -£561.90
Admin charge £5

___________
TOTAL £651.10
SWITCH (with issue) £651.10


snip

I am really really livid about this. I could do with some quick advice
before I go down there after work. And if Teresa isn't there, I'm just
going to be met by someone who won't have a clue what I'm on about and
will probably just tell me to ring some helpline or other. Help!!!
This is so unfair.


Sounds like a fairly serious training issue to me (or a clerk who
thought she knew what she was doing but quite clearly didn't). I can't
comment on LU's procedures, as I've never worked for them, but here's
how it works on National Rail:

First of all, a changeover can be done at *ANY* station, though it's
easier if you can do it at the original issuing location as they'll have
your details. Having said that, I *believe* I'm right in saying that
*ANY* London Underground station should be able to access your details,
not just Moorgate, as their PC-based machines are networked.

For National Rail issues, you need to fill out two forms so that
everything balances: The Changeover Form, which carries the details of
the old and new tickets, and a Season Ticket Refund Form, to calculate
the credit due on the old ticket.

So, here we are with what would need to be done at a National Rail
station (again, LU is probably similar, but I can't comment on that).

Step 1a - Calculate ACTUAL number of days for the new ticket.

In this case, that's 12th May 2009 to 30th December 2009.

From a calendar, that works out at 233 days.

Step 1b - Calculate base rate for the OLD ticket, to the nearest penny.

Already done in my previous post, but this is £968 (i.e. the original
price of the ticket) divided by 365 days, or £2.65.

Step 1c - Calculate credit due on OLD ticket.

£2.65 x 233 days = £617.45

Step 2a - Calculate cost of NEW ticket for the *same period* as the old one.

This would be £1136.00 for an Annual Zones 1 to 3 for 31st December 2008
to 30th December 2009.

Step 2b - Calculate the base rate for the NEW ticket.

Again, we've already done this, £1136 / 365 = £3.11 per day to the
nearest penny.

Step 2c - Calculate charge due for NEW ticket.

£3.11 x 233 days = £724.63.

Step 3 - Deduct the smaller amount from the larger and determine whether
you need to pay extra, or get a refund.

£724.63 - £617.45 = £107.18 extra to pay.

Step 4 - Complete Season Ticket Refund Form for OLD ticket.

This is so the clerk balances later. They should enter the details for
the original ticket in the upper section, and the calculated credit due
as the refund amount, to create a nominal value of the used part of the
ticket.

In this case, the original cost of the ticket was £968, and the credit
due is £617.45, giving a nominal value of £350.55.

Step 5 - Issue the changeover.

The NEW ticket should be issued starting from the day of issue, with the
SAME expiry date as the OLD ticket, and with the fare overriden to the
amount to be charged for the NEW ticket that has been calculated (i.e.
£724.63). This would generally be put into the "Shopping Basket" on
PC-based systems, to allow for step 6.

Step 6 - Account for the refund.

Not sure how LU's systems handle this, but FasTIS (which is closely
related to them) has a Sundry option for Season Ticket Refunds.

This should be entered as the credit amount (i.e. £617.45), with NO
administration fee to be charged!

Step 7 - Take payment.

The shopping basket will now contain a ticket priced at £724.63, with a
refund for £617.45, leaving the balance of £107.18 to be charged.

It's possible that the tickets being on Oyster *may* complicate matters
somewhat, but I strongly suspect a clerical error.

It gets a little more "interesting" where there's a refund due, and I
can't remember how to account for those off the top of my head, but the
majority of changeovers tend to involve the passenger paying more money
anyway. (I think it basically involves issuing the new ticket for cash,
and then making a suitable entry on the shift sheet to balance it out,
BICBW).

I'd suggest going to a TOC Ticket Office that sells Oyster products, but
as LU sold the original ticket, only they can fix it.

Cheers,

Barry

"Michael R N Dolbear" wrote in message
news:01c9d414$77e06980$LocalHost@default...
Graham Harrison wrote

BEFORE you type in your pin. Trouble is many people who work in
shops
don't know this, or ignore it. They just keep pushing buttons until
the
pin screen appears and then ask you to enter your pin. If I haven't
seen
the amount on the screen I am handed I always reject the transaction
and ask
them (nicely) to start again so I can see what I'm "pinning" for. I
never,
ever believe what they say they've entered.

Every "pin screen' I have ever seen shows the amount (top right
usually) the only point at which I have had to look very carefully is
when customer services is giving me a refund.

Now if every machine let you put the card the same way round and they
agreed on top or bottom too that would be much better.

--
Mike D



Well, you've led a sheltered life! My butcher has one which shows you the
amount (can't remember where), you then push the green, enter button, the
amount disappears and then you enter the pin and push enter again. He's
very good and always runs you through that process. Conversely, I made a
purchase in a different shop, away from home, last week as it happens; I was
presented with a screen which only showed the PIN entry. I declined and
asked the assistant to stop at the screen showing the amount. She
cancelled the transaction (I have the little cancelled print out) and we
started again and this time I followed what you might call my "butchers
instructions".

It's worth saying that the machine is not the arbiter of whether the amount
and PIN happen on the same machine. The grocer in our village has
precisely the same handset as the butcher but the amount and PIN are on the
same screen in his case.

"Graham Harrison" gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Every "pin screen' I have ever seen shows the amount (top right
usually) the only point at which I have had to look very carefully is
when customer services is giving me a refund.

Now if every machine let you put the card the same way round and they
agreed on top or bottom too that would be much better.

Well, you've led a sheltered life! My butcher has one which shows you
the amount (can't remember where)

Do you buy tube tickets from your butcher often?

On 14 May, 00:05, Barry Salter wrote:
So, here we are with what would need to be done at a National Rail
station (again, LU is probably similar, but I can't comment on that).

Step 1a - Calculate ACTUAL number of days for the new ticket.

In this case, that's 12th May 2009 to 30th December 2009.

*From a calendar, that works out at 233 days.

Step 1b - Calculate base rate for the OLD ticket, to the nearest penny.

Already done in my previous post, but this is £968 (i.e. the original
price of the ticket) divided by 365 days, or £2.65.

Step 1c - Calculate credit due on OLD ticket.

£2.65 x 233 days = £617.45

Step 2a - Calculate cost of NEW ticket for the *same period* as the old one.

This would be £1136.00 for an Annual Zones 1 to 3 for 31st December 2008
to 30th December 2009.

Step 2b - Calculate the base rate for the NEW ticket.

Again, we've already done this, £1136 / 365 = £3.11 per day to the
nearest penny.

Step 2c - Calculate charge due for NEW ticket.

£3.11 x 233 days = £724.63.

Hmmm - isn't the base rate worked on *working* days - i.e. 260 in a
full year? 52 x 5?
Secondly, I think an allowance is then given for holidays - 4 weeks /
20 days?
So the base rate is worked out on 240 days in a year, I think....
......