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Old May 22nd 09, 01:49 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...

....apparently:

"London Mayor Boris Johnson has announced plans that he hopes will
make the city the electric vehicle (EV) capital of Europe" - report
from technology news site The Register:
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/05...capital_plans/


Two interesting excerpts from this story...
---quote---
Only 2500 of the charging posts will be installed and funded directly
by the GLA. The remaining 22,500 will come as a result of the GLA
working “with the [London] boroughs and other partners”.

Further details of exactly what that means and, crucially, who’ll pay
for the posts will follow in an announcement in November.
---/quote---

....and...

---quote---
In related news, a report by analyst Frost and Sullivan has suggested
that in order to promote widespread use of EVs governments must
“ensure the availability of at least four charging points per EV in
the first year”.

If the analysis is correct then London alone will need 250,000 charge
points by 2015, rather than the GLA's projected 25,000 points.
---/quote---


I'm all for electric cars, no doubt, but they're obviously not the
magic solution to London's transport needs (though one fear Bozza & Co
are capable of selling it as such). That said, it doesn't stop them
playing a part in London's travel mix - page 9 of this Electric
Vehicles Plan from the Mayor does at least set out some legitimate
arguments as to why "London is the best potential market for EVs
[Electric Vehicles] in the UK" - see (PDF):
http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/publi...icles-plan.pdf

And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.

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Old May 22nd 09, 02:43 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...

In message
, at
06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.


And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the grid
to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of electricity,
you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where it's needed.
--
Roland Perry
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Old May 22nd 09, 08:56 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...

"Roland Perry" wrote in message

In message
,
at 06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T
remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.


And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.


Don't you need 3-phase for fast battery charging? Otherwise, it takes
many hours.


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Old May 22nd 09, 11:08 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...


On May 22, 9:56*pm, "Recliner" wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote:

In message
,
at 06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T
remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather
wider debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.


And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it to where
it's needed.


Don't you need 3-phase for fast battery charging? *Otherwise, it takes
many hours.


Rather pathetically I'm on the edge of my knowledge when it comes to
this field, but yes my understanding is that you do need a 3-phase
supply for fast battery charging. The article I cited in the post that
started this thread said that the Mayor's plan is for three types of
charge points:

(1) 13A, 240V slow charge points
(2) 32A, 240V three-phase fast charge points
(3) 200A, 500V three-phase rapid charge points

N.B. Of the last category, the article says "the potential of these
posts is still being 'investigated' ".

It's also worth noting that the article says there'll only be 50 of
the fast charge points (the second category) by 2012, with a further
150 by 2015. Presumably this is only counting the charging points that
will be provided (or at least funded) by the Mayor/GLA/TfL - the bit I
quoted earlier has the Mayor hoping that the boroughs and other
partners will provide lots of others.
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Old May 22nd 09, 11:12 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...


On May 23, 12:08*am, Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

(1) 13A, 240V slow charge points
(2) 32A, 240V three-phase fast charge points
(3) 200A, 500V three-phase rapid charge points

N.B. Of the last category, the article says "the potential of these
posts is still being 'investigated' ".


I probably should have added something to display a suitable level of
scepticism after quoting that!


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Old May 23rd 09, 09:29 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...

In message , at 21:56:46 on
Fri, 22 May 2009, Recliner remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.


And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.


Don't you need 3-phase for fast battery charging? Otherwise, it takes
many hours.


You need DC to charge a battery, and that can be derived from 1-phase
mains. But the supply would normally have to be 3-phase if you were
wanting to draw much more than 25kw.
--
Roland Perry
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Old May 25th 09, 04:34 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message
, at
06:49:14 on Fri, 22 May 2009, Mizter T remarked:
And of course the electricity to power said vehicles needs to be
generated somewhere and somehow - which is in itself a rather wider
debate, and indeed one which is currently going on.


And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the grid to
the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of electricity, you'd
have to do quite a lot of work to get it where it's needed.
--
Roland Perry


Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the existing
domestic supply cables that are under every street. This must have been the
approach for the existing charging points, and it's hardly rocket science.

D A Stocks

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Old May 25th 09, 07:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...

In message , at 17:34:59 on Mon, 25 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:
And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.


Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the existing
domestic supply cables that are under every street. This must have been
the approach for the existing charging points, and it's hardly rocket
science.


You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street. Nor does this approach solve getting the extra power from the
outside world to the substations.
--
Roland Perry
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Old May 25th 09, 08:51 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...


"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 17:34:59 on Mon, 25 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:
And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the grid
to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of electricity,
you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where it's needed.


Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the existing
domestic supply cables that are under every street. This must have been
the approach for the existing charging points, and it's hardly rocket
science.


You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street.

A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house. The
distribution system would barely notice that, even if everyone started
charging a car at the same time - we're talking about a system which copes
with events like a third of the nation's households putting a kettle on the
boil at the start of a TV commercial break. Fast charge points would
probably require rationing, probably by making them expensive to use. The
peaks in electricity demand tend to occur during the late afternoon when
cars are more likely to be out on the road than sat on charging points.

Nor does this approach solve getting the extra power from the outside
world to the substations.

We're talking about a gradual take-up over the next 20 years or so, and it
should all be very predictable. I suspect the major challenge is
generating the electricity, not the distribution.

D A Stocks

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Old May 25th 09, 09:25 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default Boris' battery drive - London to go green for electric cars...

In message , at 21:51:54 on Mon, 25 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

And in London the problem is distributing the electricity from the
grid to the end users. Even if there was a plentiful source of
electricity, you'd have to do quite a lot of work to get it where
it's needed.

Just dig up the relevant bit of road/pavement and tap into the
existing domestic supply cables that are under every street. This
must have been the approach for the existing charging points, and
it's hardly rocket science.


You'll soon overload it if it's more than a few charging points per
street.

A trickle-charge point is equivalent to a 13A socket inside a house.


You want a bit more than a trickle charge - we were talking earlier
about the use of three-phase and up to 100amps.

Typical cars I've seen take about 3 hours at 12kw (that's 48amps) to
charge up.

Nor does this approach solve getting the extra power from the outside
world to the substations.

We're talking about a gradual take-up over the next 20 years or so, and
it should all be very predictable. I suspect the major challenge is
generating the electricity, not the distribution.


More electricity requires more distribution. London is pretty much maxed
out at the moment.
--
Roland Perry


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