Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

And so, since at Stratford, there's no check to prevent me making the
journey, I hopped on train with scarcely a thought.

Having arrived at Ilford, I popped out my Oystercard but couldn't get
through the barrier, at which point it stopped me and I was "kindly"
asked to see the bloke issuing penalty fares. I waited (stewing, and
was strongly considering flat out refusing to pay the £20 if they told
me that was the way it was going to be done) and was informed that "by
rights", I should be paying £20 - I argued that since I come from the
21st century, I haven't bought a ticket in years, it was a completely
honest and understandable mistake. Fortunately, (and quite seriously,
given his attitude to the Asian woman before me, I suspect probably
the fact I was white and vaguely middle class) he made a huge thing of
the fact that he'd probably made enough money for the his employer and
would sell me a single from Stratford.

I haven't been so lucky before - when I used to travel from Hackney
Central to Stratford on the way to Canary Wharf, I had forgotten that
my monthly had expired the day before, and since it was the days
before barriers at Hackney Central, I didn't have to touch in to get
through and so had no indication that I'd got an expired monthly until
I walked into a ticket check at Stratford. On that day, it was 'zero
tolerance' regardless of the fact that my Oystercard had almost
complete travelcard coverage for the previous couple of years and so
it was quite unlikely I was trying to blag my way through. The arsey
"we've got you over a barrel" attitude of the revenue collection
officer on the day REALLY REALLY got my goat.

There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 3:16*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

And so, since at Stratford, there's no check to prevent me making the
journey, I hopped on train with scarcely a thought.

Having arrived at Ilford, I popped out my Oystercard but couldn't get
through the barrier, at which point it stopped me and I was "kindly"
asked to see the bloke issuing penalty fares. I waited (stewing, and
was strongly considering flat out refusing to pay the £20 if they told
me that was the way it was going to be done) and was informed that "by
rights", I should be paying £20 - I argued that since I come from the
21st century, I haven't bought a ticket in years, it was a completely
honest and understandable mistake. Fortunately, (and quite seriously,
given his attitude to the Asian woman before me, I suspect probably
the fact I was white and vaguely middle class) he made a huge thing of
the fact that he'd probably made enough money for the his employer and
would sell me a single from Stratford.

They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.


I haven't been so lucky before - when I used to travel from Hackney
Central to Stratford on the way to Canary Wharf, I had forgotten that
my monthly had expired the day before, and since it was the days
before barriers at Hackney Central, I didn't have to touch in to get
through and so had no indication that I'd got an expired monthly until
I walked into a ticket check at Stratford. On that day, it was 'zero
tolerance' regardless of the fact that my Oystercard had almost
complete travelcard coverage for the previous couple of years and so
it was quite unlikely I was trying to blag my way through. The arsey
"we've got you over a barrel" attitude of the revenue collection
officer on the day REALLY REALLY got my goat.

I'm guessing that instead of simply being charged the £4 for an
unresolved journey (the so called "max cash fare"), the gates had been
set so as not to allow anyone through who didn't have a valid
Travelcard (on Oyster) or hadn't touched-in at the beginning of their
journey. I heard a story recently that would back up that notion -
i.e. that's how things work when RPIs are doing a 'zero tolerance'
check at a station.

The above scenario is an inevitable one for smartcard ticketing - at
least until someone devises a card that can display information
visually that's robust and inexpensive enough etc for it to be rolled
out for practical day to day use. If one's Oyster card is registered -
and this is necessary for monthly and longer season tickets - then the
Oyster card system sends the registered holder an email informing them
that the Travelcard (or bus pass) is due to expire shortly. In
addition the newer version of LU gates flashes up a warning in red
text (and indeed the other displays associated with Oyster readers -
e.g. on buses - do the same, but they're rather harder to read).

One quite technical point - the Oyster card itself does not hold the
whole history of what tickets have and haven't been loaded on it. I
think there are three 'slots' for season tickets (i.e. Travelcards and
bus passes), so anything before that will have been overwritten by the
new ticket. Nor do I think RPIs have any sort of data link to the
central Oyster card database either.


There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

I've certainly seen RPIs who seem to have attitude problems. I have,
to be fair, seen many others who don't seem to take such obvious
gratification in 'catching their prey' - taking some quiet
satisfaction is one thing, but I can certainly see how those with a
swaggering attitude can gets on people's goats. The best attitude is
just to calmly take it all in ones stride.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Martin Petrov wrote:

This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. *Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London? Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area. I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a good
few years. And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 4:40*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. *Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside PAYG-
land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some of the
further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail (though
they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I dare say
the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to
say, given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS
due to always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top
up on my Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to
buy a ticket to cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to
Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London?

No, indoors. Like a room with a padded cell.

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. Not so great
if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley South,
with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that you're not going
to use at all.

and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains. It's
totally useless otherwise. And Z1-3 is still no good for all your
leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in towarsd the
centre when you want to be getting heading outwards towards the suburbs
and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a good
few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it south of
the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket to/from Clapham
Junction to connect with it.

And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. But even so, it's still
nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old Savers bus
tickets.

Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. I'm glad you've
managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it did mean
having to move to Hackney to do it.) But always remember that
Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On 3 July, 15:45, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 3, 3:16*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:



This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to say,
given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS due to
always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top up on my
Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to buy a ticket to
cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to Ilford.

And so, since at Stratford, there's no check to prevent me making the
journey, I hopped on train with scarcely a thought.

Having arrived at Ilford, I popped out my Oystercard but couldn't get
through the barrier, at which point it stopped me and I was "kindly"
asked to see the bloke issuing penalty fares. I waited (stewing, and
was strongly considering flat out refusing to pay the £20 if they told
me that was the way it was going to be done) and was informed that "by
rights", I should be paying £20 - I argued that since I come from the
21st century, I haven't bought a ticket in years, it was a completely
honest and understandable mistake. Fortunately, (and quite seriously,
given his attitude to the Asian woman before me, I suspect probably
the fact I was white and vaguely middle class) he made a huge thing of
the fact that he'd probably made enough money for the his employer and
would sell me a single from Stratford.

They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.



I haven't been so lucky before - when I used to travel from Hackney
Central to Stratford on the way to Canary Wharf, I had forgotten that
my monthly had expired the day before, and since it was the days
before barriers at Hackney Central, I didn't have to touch in to get
through and so had no indication that I'd got an expired monthly until
I walked into a ticket check at Stratford. On that day, it was 'zero
tolerance' regardless of the fact that my Oystercard had almost
complete travelcard coverage for the previous couple of years and so
it was quite unlikely I was trying to blag my way through. The arsey
"we've got you over a barrel" attitude of the revenue collection
officer on the day REALLY REALLY got my goat.

I'm guessing that instead of simply being charged the £4 for an
unresolved journey (the so called "max cash fare"), the gates had been
set so as not to allow anyone through who didn't have a valid
Travelcard (on Oyster) or hadn't touched-in at the beginning of their
journey. I heard a story recently that would back up that notion -
i.e. that's how things work when RPIs are doing a 'zero tolerance'
check at a station.

The above scenario is an inevitable one for smartcard ticketing - at
least until someone devises a card that can display information
visually that's robust and inexpensive enough etc for it to be rolled
out for practical day to day use. If one's Oyster card is registered -
and this is necessary for monthly and longer season tickets - then the
Oyster card system sends the registered holder an email informing them
that the Travelcard (or bus pass) is due to expire shortly. In
addition the newer version of LU gates flashes up a warning in red
text (and indeed the other displays associated with Oyster readers -
e.g. on buses - do the same, but they're rather harder to read).

One quite technical point - the Oyster card itself does not hold the
whole history of what tickets have and haven't been loaded on it. I
think there are three 'slots' for season tickets (i.e. Travelcards and
bus passes), so anything before that will have been overwritten by the
new ticket. Nor do I think RPIs have any sort of data link to the
central Oyster card database either.



There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

I've certainly seen RPIs who seem to have attitude problems. I have,
to be fair, seen many others who don't seem to take such obvious
gratification in 'catching their prey' - taking some quiet
satisfaction is one thing, but I can certainly see how those with a
swaggering attitude can gets on people's goats. The best attitude is
just to calmly take it all in ones stride.

Lots of very fair points, as I would expect from the esteemed
poster :)

My real beef is that it has often looked as though WAGN (and probably
others) have made it as difficult as possible to actually buy a ticket
(very very poor ticket machines which were slow as hell, unintuitive
and liable to swallow your card, combined with largely unstaffed
stations), and refusing allow people to buy their tickets on the
train.

When I lived back up north, the norm on north west trains was that
there would be a guard on all trains who would sell you a ticket on
the train, no questions asked (maybe it's not any more, but it seemed
to work well enough then) - this seemed like a perfectly sensible
option, and to see such poor facilities combined with aggressive and
nasty staff who would give no leeway in the event of queues at the
ticket office or ticket machines (and honestly, I wouldn't have been
too happy to have to put my card in the machines....) I know there has
to be some sort of deterrent to fare dodgers, but the zero tolerance
approach can leave a bad taste in the event of genuinely
understandable circumstances.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 5:33*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:

[snip]

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London?

No, indoors. *Like a room with a padded cell.

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. *Not so great
if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley South,
with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that you're not going
to use at all.

OK - then you buy a simple point-so-point season ticket. Where's the
problem?


and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains. *It's
totally useless otherwise. *And Z1-3 is still no good for all your
leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in towarsd the
centre when you want to be getting heading outwards towards the suburbs
and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

[Actually since November 2007, when LO took over from Silverlink]


Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it south of
the river. *So there's still the need for a paper ticket to/from Clapham
Junction to connect with it.

I'm a south Londoner too - but I've hardly got it in for LO simply
because it's all north of the river (where on I'd say the majority of
intra-London public transport journeys take place, simply because
there's more people north of the river) . I've got it in for the TOCs
who've been useless at getting their act in gear, and I've got it in
for the DfT who've been useless at making the TOCs go in for Oyster
PAYG.


And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. *But even so, it's still
nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old Savers bus
tickets.

An "inconvenient replacement" that's far more convenient - faster
boarding times, stores lots more credit, isn't susceptible to fraud,
can offer daily capping - yeah, pull the other one.


Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. *I'm glad you've
managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it did mean
having to move to Hackney to do it.) *But always remember that
Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

Ha ha ha, I see now - you are being a *massive* troll and I claim my
£5 Oyster credit ;)

(Too much sun?)

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Mizter T wrote:


They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.


The trouble is, it always "might happen some", no matter what year it
just happens to be. Forgive me for being cynical, but I really have a
hard time imagining this ever coming about.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Mizter T wrote:


"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we count?

Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest reach".

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On 3 July, 17:33, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:
This morning I had to travel to Leyton to Ilford and needless to
say, given I haven't bought a paper ticket in London for YEARS
due to always having a monthly or annual travelcard and auto top
up on my Oystercard, it never crossed my mind that I'd have to
buy a ticket to cover me for the stretch outside of zone 3 to
Ilford.

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys, I'm
amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without needing a paper
ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that time?

In London?

No, indoors. *Like a room with a padded cell.


Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock. Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years". If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. *Not so great
if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley South,
with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that you're not going
to use at all.

"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.



and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has sufficed
for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains. *It's
totally useless otherwise. *And Z1-3 is still no good for all your
leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in towarsd the
centre when you want to be getting heading outwards towards the suburbs
and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE. Millions of people do this,
making it VERY VERY USEFUL. But you don't, so it's useless. Obviously.



I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a good
few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it south of
the river. *So there's still the need for a paper ticket to/from Clapham
Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?


And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. *But even so, it's still
nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old Savers bus
tickets.

Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. *I'm glad you've
managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it did mean
having to move to Hackney to do it.) *But always remember that
Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too. The
Oystercard is magnificent north of the river. I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it.

You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 5:44*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 15:45, Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 3:16*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[BIG snip]

There. I've got all that off my chest.

And don't get me started on the behaviour of the revenue protection
officers on WAGN during the early part of this decade (when I used to
work in Hertford) - I had a number of run-ins with those a##holes.
(and never once was my ticket invalid - their general attitude was
disgusting)

I've certainly seen RPIs who seem to have attitude problems. I have,
to be fair, seen many others who don't seem to take such obvious
gratification in 'catching their prey' - taking some quiet
satisfaction is one thing, but I can certainly see how those with a
swaggering attitude can gets on people's goats. The best attitude is
just to calmly take it all in ones stride.

(The "calmly take it all in ones stride" point above was directed at
how the RPIs should do their jobs, BTW - though I suppose the same
advice might as well apply to someone being subjected to an RPI
inquisition.)


Lots of very fair points, as I would expect from the esteemed
poster :)

My real beef is that it has often looked as though WAGN (and probably
others) have made it as difficult as possible to actually buy a ticket
(very very poor ticket machines which were slow as hell, unintuitive
and liable to swallow your card, combined with largely unstaffed
stations), and refusing allow people to buy their tickets on the
train.

When I lived back up north, the norm on north west trains was that
there would be a guard on all trains who would sell you a ticket on
the train, no questions asked (maybe it's not any more, but it seemed
to work well enough then) - this seemed like a perfectly sensible
option, and to see such poor facilities combined with aggressive and
nasty staff who would give no leeway in the event of queues at the
ticket office or ticket machines (and honestly, I wouldn't have been
too happy to have to put my card in the machines....) I know there has
to be some sort of deterrent to fare dodgers, but the zero tolerance
approach can leave a bad taste in the event of genuinely
understandable circumstances.

Cripes... well, you're touching on an awful lot of issues there. I
agree that it seems the TOCs sometimes seem to want to play it both
ways. The more general point about compulsory ticket areas - aka
Penalty Fares areas - well, they're a fairly well established concept.
I'm not sure if London Underground implementing this pre-dates British
Rail - perhaps someone can help with the history.

The argument in favour is I suppose that situation is meant to be
unambiguous (i.e. buy ticket before travelling) - and given the busy
and at peak times rather crowded nature of suburban rail services in
and around London, I don't think the 'pay train' concept - that's
paying a conductor/guard on board - would be remotely workable in most
cases. Indeed I don't think it ever really was adopted - even
stretching back in history - apart from on a few lines such as the
'Goblin', where UIVMM 'pay on train' was in place until LO took over
and equipped stations with ticket machines - not sure if there are
Permit to Travel machines there too but I don't think so.

(SWT's Hounslow Loop line was also excluded from the PF scheme until
quite recently - but my experience was that guard's didn't really seem
to go in for doing 'revenue duties' aka selling tickets on board -
what were others experiences?)

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all. I do
however agree that people shouldn't cut themselves off from places
they don't know - there's a lot of richness of life out there not too
far away, and I'd always urge people to live on the adventurous side.
So don't start trying to say I was talking about no-go areas, as I
clearly wasn't.

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper - and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.


Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Martin Petrov wrote:


Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past few
years, that's who!

If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.


Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. I'm glad you're finally seeing that.


Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE.

Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones that
you already use for your daily commute. No use at all for heading in
the opposite direction, getting away from the built up areas and the
crowds.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?


There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.


No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too.

Rather you than me. I'd hate to live that close to central London even
with the benefit of Oyster tickets. (And you still wouldn't be able to
use PAYG on all the FCC trains heading away from central London.)

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New Barnet
or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or Gordon Hill
or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river" places I've
caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a result of walking
the various stretches of the London Loop and Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a very
few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places that I
actually want to go to.

I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation. But
the real situation on the ground over the past few years. You're the
one that brought up the subject of the past few years. Don't try to
wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.


Like I said, I'm glad you've found a way of making it useful for you.
Well done. Congratulations. But it genuinely isn't useful for people
like me, at least not yet. And that's not "crap" but a simple fact.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 6:23*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 5:33 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

On 3 July, 16:40, "solar penguin"
wrote:

[snip]

Given that Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys,
I'm amazed that you've managed to go "for YEARS" without
needing a paper ticket. Were you stuck indoors for most of that
time?

In London?

No, indoors. Like a room with a padded cell.

Yep, I had a 1-5 for a while while I worked in Bromley

Great if you were living in Zone One at the time, maybe. Not so
great if you're living in southeast London and just need a simple
point-to-point serason between you'r local station and Bromley
South, with no extra travelcard stuff for tubes and buses that
you're not going to use at all.

OK - then you buy a simple point-so-point season ticket. Where's the
problem?

I didn't know NR point-to-pont seasons were available on Oyster. *And if
they're not, then this is one of the many journeys for which Oyster is
useless.

Where did I say say that NR point-to-point seasons were available on
Oyster? Anyway, that doesn't make Oyster "completely useless on most
journeys", which is exactly what you said. It simply makes it of no
use in such particular situations. And it's useful anyway for catching
the bus on the odd occasion.


and
even since I've been working back in the centre, a 1-3 has
sufficed for any journey I need to make around the local area.

But you need the season travelcard for that to work on the trains.
It's totally useless otherwise. And Z1-3 is still no good for all
your leisure journeys on NR trains, because it forces you in
towarsd the centre when you want to be getting heading outwards
towards the suburbs and all the open spaces along the London Loop.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

[Actually since November 2007, when LO took over from Silverlink]

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

I'm a south Londoner too - but I've hardly got it in for LO simply
because it's all north of the river (where on I'd say the majority of
intra-London public transport journeys take place, simply because
there's more people north of the river). I've got it in for the TOCs
who've been useless at getting their act in gear, and I've got it in
for the DfT who've been useless at making the TOCs go in for Oyster
PAYG.

I haven't got it in for LO. *I'm just stating the fact that untill the
ELLX is finished, the LO is useless for nearly all journeys south of the
river. *That is a fact.

No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.


I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that one.
I'm only describing the situation on the ground. *That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.


And while I lived in Hackney, largely all my journeys
involved buses. The Oystercard is absolutely ace.

It is good for buses, I'll grant you that much. But even so, it's
still nothing more than an inconvenient replacement for the old
Savers bus tickets.

An "inconvenient replacement" that's far more convenient - faster
boarding times, stores lots more credit, isn't susceptible to fraud,
can offer daily capping - yeah, pull the other one.

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left.
Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that everyone
keeps taliing about. *And now they've gone, I'll never have the chance
to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a dozen bus tickets
for only a quid!

Point proven!


Like I said, Oyster is just a useless white elephant. I'm glad
you've managed to find journeys where it works for you (even if it
did mean having to move to Hackney to do it.) But always remember
that Oyster-friendly jouneys are the exception, not the rule.

Ha ha ha, I see now - you are being a *massive* troll and I claim my
£5 Oyster credit ;)

(Too much sun?)

No. *I think the OP is more likely to be the troll.

He was venting a bit - but so were you.

FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 6:00 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to
some of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban
rail (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of
course). But I dare say the same applies for a great many number
of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"?
And what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to
live in these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we
count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. I see what you're saying now. Good
point about the different people's 'bits' of London. (My bits are
definitely the whole suburban ring, roughly corresponding to Z4-6 and
just a few of the quieter bits of Z2-3.)

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper

Not the One Day ones, since you can't even get them on Oyster. ;)

- and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

Which is still not much use if you don't want or need a Travelcard
season, just a normal ODTC.

Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest
reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

Ok, I'm sorry about that.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left.
Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.


Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 7:02*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

You're the troll. And what the hell is this about being an "Oyster-
apologist" - what on earth is that meant to mean?


Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past few
years, that's who!

That doesn't make you Martin though does it.


If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.

In which case you are as blinkered as you're trying to paint Martin.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. *I'm glad you're finally seeing that.

What is this "most journeys" - you haven't actually defined what you
mean. Most people would I think take it to mean the majority of
journeys that are made. You now appear to be backpeddling to justify
your earlier comments by defining it as meaning all possible journeys
between any two stations in London. OK, *if* that's the definition
you're using then yes, I'd think paper tickets are required for the
majority of them.

At least for one off travel - but for daily commutes, I dare say a
fair number of people make use of season Travelcards as the NR leg is
part of a longer journey. (And season Travelcards that don't include
z1 are actually quite good value. And of course any season Travelcard
can be bought on Oyster.)


Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE.

Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones that
you already use for your daily commute. *No use at all for heading in
the opposite direction, getting away from the built up areas and the
crowds.

Agreed. But that hardly makes Oyster useless.
(And any Travelcard is good for any London bus.)


I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. *London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. *I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.

OK, so your "most journey" definition does now appear to be "all
possible journeys between any two stations in London". Thanks for
clearing that up.


No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too.

Rather you than me. *I'd hate to live that close to central London even
with the benefit of Oyster tickets. *(And you still wouldn't be able to
use PAYG on all the FCC trains heading away from central London.)

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New Barnet
or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or Gordon Hill
or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river" places I've
caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a result of walking
the various stretches of the London Loop and Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a very
few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places that I
actually want to go to.

Balls. It's useful (aka "magnificent) in a *great many* areas north of
the river. But it's all about you of course.


I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation. *But
the real situation on the ground over the past few years. *You're the
one that brought up the subject of the past few years. *Don't try to
wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

And then what will you have to rant about?


You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.

Like I said, I'm glad you've found a way of making it useful for you.
Well done. *Congratulations. *But it genuinely isn't useful for people
like me, at least not yet. *And that's not "crap" but a simple fact.

Yes, but just because it isn't useful for you hardly makes it a "white
elephant", as you said elsewhere. Unless the world revolves around
you. In which case we must redraw the solar system.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On 3 July, 19:02, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last few
years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past few
years, that's who!

If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.



"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. *I'm glad you're finally seeing that.



Many, many, many people buy the season travelcard. They're great. A
very large number of people have jobs within the zones and it's
scarcely more expensive to buy a monthly to do your daily commute into
town, and then everything else is FREE.

Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones that
you already use for your daily commute. *No use at all for heading in
the opposite direction, getting away from the built up areas and the
crowds.

I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for a
good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is completely
useless for most journeys, since there's hardly anything of it
south of the river. So there's still the need for a paper ticket
to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. *London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. *I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.



No, if I'd stayed in Finsbury Park where I lived previously, I could
have got tubes and overground trains with the Oystercard too.

Rather you than me. *I'd hate to live that close to central London even
with the benefit of Oyster tickets. *(And you still wouldn't be able to
use PAYG on all the FCC trains heading away from central London.)

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New Barnet
or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or Gordon Hill
or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river" places I've
caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a result of walking
the various stretches of the London Loop and Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a very
few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places that I
actually want to go to.

I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London will
move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation. *But
the real situation on the ground over the past few years. *You're the
one that brought up the subject of the past few years. *Don't try to
wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

You don't like the Oystercard - for whatever reason (probably living
south of the river or paranoid fear that MI5 are watching you and
recording your movements, whatever) - but don't trot out crap that
it's not useful - that is completely and utterly untrue.

Like I said, I'm glad you've found a way of making it useful for you.
Well done. *Congratulations. *But it genuinely isn't useful for people
like me, at least not yet. *And that's not "crap" but a simple fact.

It's not useful for you. It's useful for me. Whatever. However, I've
scarcely bought any paper tickets for a long, long time. I couldn't
give a flying f # if you believe me or not - the fact that you don't
believe me is incredulous. I clearly live a life that's different to
you, living in areas different to you, going to places different to
you. All these places all me to use my Oystercard, and this had led to
me not having to buy paper tickets. And what agenda you think I have
as an "Oystercard apologist", jesus, do you think I'm on the payroll
or something? I believe you obviously have to make a number of
journeys on National Rail rather than the tube (which for some reason,
you've completely taken out of the equation, despite the millions that
use it extensively) but don't ignore the fact that huge swathes of the
population use Oystercards and don't have to buy any other tickets
because that's a fact.

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts them, the
better.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 7:22*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 6:00 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to
some of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban
rail (though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of
course). But I dare say the same applies for a great many number
of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"?
And what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to
live in these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? Don't we
count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all.

I'm sorry I misunderstood you. *I see what you're saying now. *Good
point about the different people's 'bits' of London. *(My bits are
definitely the whole suburban ring, roughly corresponding to Z4-6 and
just a few of the quieter bits of Z2-3.)

Yes. It's certainly fair to say that 'outer London' is ignored -
indeed, sometimes nigh-on written off - by quite a lot of people, in
particular by 'new arrivals'. Which is a shame, and something I always
try and challenge people on. (Just like those who don't venture south,
or west, etc.)

I would however say there are some places that aren't a particular
pull - perfectly nice to live in, but just not an awful lot there -
although there's always something. And there are places that aren't
quite so nice... though sometimes these are the places that can be
quite interesting! (But sometimes it's hard to find the redeeming
features.)

As people live in London for longer then it's more likely they'll go
exploring. Though there's always the folk who just escape altogether,
perhaps to a country house.


Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper

Not the One Day ones, since you can't even get them on Oyster. *;)

True. One day, daily capping will sort this out.


- and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

Which is still not much use if you don't want or need a Travelcard
season, just a normal ODTC.

Though FWIW "Oyster Tickets Stops" do sell Day Travelcards.


Although since the OP was only going as far as Ilford, which is -
what? - Zone Four at the most, it's hardly that far a "furthest
reach".

Which isn't what I said - don't put quotation marks around something I
didn't say - I said "further reaches", and it was only meant as a
broad brush, relative description.

Ok, I'm sorry about that.

And having read this I want to turn down the heat on the discussion...
but before reading and replying to the above post I launched into you
in response to your reply to Martin. Which perhaps should serve as a
lesson to stand back when two posters are at loggerheads, rather than
throw oneself into the fray too.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Mizter T wrote:


No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
made by those people.

But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
of north outer London).

(However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
such a culculation and found otherwise.)


What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.

No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
above.



I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.


I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. I'd forgotten how much
the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
facts.

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
stuff. That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.


Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
dozen bus tickets for only a quid!

Point proven!


What point? Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
than being allowed to break them.

That reminds me of another advantage of paper tickects. If I want to go
somewhere in North London, I can get a Z2-6 ODTC, change to the tube at
Balham or Vauxhall, and travel through Z1 knowing the chance of an
on-train ticket inspection is pretty much zero. When Oyster PAYG
becomes standard, I won't be able to do that any more. :(


FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Exactly. The situation causes at least as many problems as it solves,
and more often than not it's easier just forget about Oyster .

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 7:44*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got left..
Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and stuff.
That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.

Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

Yes, Auto Top-up is fantastic - but it's not for everyone. There's a
great many people who's finances are fairly chaotic, or even just very
tight - and money being taken just like that wouldn't really work out
too well.

Also, you'll only get a 'proper' Record card if you buy from an LU
station ticket office. LU ticket machines issue a printed receipt -
the big ones issue the receipt on blank LU ticket stock, the smaller
ones on a roll of white thermal paper. And "Oyster Ticket Stops" only
issue receipts on a roll of white thermal paper (the same as a credit/
debit card receipt chit). Regardless, it's a visual record of when
you're good to go up until.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 7:58*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[snip true stuff]

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts
[Oyster cards], the better.

Taxi? Make sure you top-up first! Minicab? Agree the damn fare first!
(Dodgy minicab - presumably not!)

Congestion charge? I did think about how Oyster could be hooked up
into the CC system somehow. Parking charges? I suppose Oyster could be
useful in paying for parking.

Too much motorised vehicular stuff for you? Well then how about the
upcoming Cycle Hire scheme? I recall Boris talking about just that -
but I'm not quite sure I can see how it'd work what with the need to
secure a deposit/access to a deposit (i.e. via a credit card).

Walking... err... shoe shops perhaps? On-street foot massage?

Skateboarding... err... paying fines to PCSOs for doing it where one
shouldn't be doing it perhaps?

Canoe hire? Canal boat trip?

Extension from Boundary Zone 6 to Paris on Eurostar? ...to New York on
Virgin Atlantic?

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

In message
Mizter T wrote:


On Jul 3, 7:58*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[snip true stuff]

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts
[Oyster cards], the better.

[snip]

Canoe hire? Canal boat trip?


Is Oyster valid on the river buses?

--
Graeme Wall

This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 8:01*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

No - you stated "for now Overground is completely useless for most
journeys" - absolutely *no* qualifier about your statement only
applying south of the river. Given that LO is incredibly useful to a
good number of people - *that is a fact* - then I just pointing that
out.

I'm not denying it it's useful for the journeys that just happen to be
made by those people.

But I suspect that if you were to calculate the shortest journey between
every possible start point and every possible end point in the London
area, then LO would be no use at all for most (i.e. over 50%) of them,
because it doesn't penetrate south London (as well several large chunks
of north outer London).

Agreed. Just as South West Trains, taken in isolation, is also
"completely useless for most journeys", etc etc.


(However, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong if anyone has actually done
such a culculation and found otherwise.)

What you appear to be saying is that it's useless for most of *your*
journeys - which is fine, although one could say that puts you in the
same 'blinkered Londoner' bracket that you were trying to shove Martin
into earlier on.

No, I'm definitely talking about all possible journeys as calculated
above.

OK. However given you originally said "Given that Oyster is still
completely useless on most journeys", a reasonable person might well
take that to mean the majority of journeys that are actually made - as
opposed to all possible journeys in London.


I'm not interested in placing blame with this organisation or that
one. I'm only describing the situation on the ground. That's all

No, you're interested in blowing off steam. And why not place blame -
it seems to be the root cause of why you're getting so steamed up
after all.

I'm not getting steamed up, just stating facts. *I'd forgotten how much
the Oyster enthusiasts in these groups hate being reminded of simple
facts.

I guess I'm bracketed as an "Oyster enthusiast" - fine, if that
pleases you. I think it's very useful, I think it's revolutionised
things on the routes/modes *where it is available* - which is why I'm
very enthusiastic, and *always have been*, for it to be rolled out
across NR in London.

Apart from anything else, I genuinely think it will encourage people
to venture further afield.


You can't simply look at the tickets and see how many you've got
left. Instead you have to mess about with your online balance and
stuff. That's annoying.

I agree that's a definite downside with smartcard ticketing, no doubt.
As I said in my reply to Martin, perhaps one day there will be
smartcards that offer a visual display of what your balance is and/or
when your season ticket is due to expire.

Like I said, I'm interested in facts about the real situation on the
ground, not hypotheical future speculation that might never happen.

It's *definitely* going to happen. I'd put a massive wager on that, if
such a bet was actually possible. Oyster readers, sitting as yet
unused and all wrapped up, have been installed at a great many NR
station in Greater London - and the installation programme is ongoing.
The TOCs are not only committed in principle, they're in the midst of
heavy negotiations about it. Central government is decisively in
favour. The Mayor obviously is, as was the former Mayor, as
(obviously) is TfL.

Where we're at now is the end-game. It's gone on for a whole lot
bloody longer than anyone would have wanted or desired, because what's
at stake is big money. But there's no chance it's simply not going to
happen. No chance at all whatsoever. It's just a question of when. I'd
say "some time next year", nothing more specific than that.

Earlier you spoke about "these groups" - being these newsgroups -
well, if you popped in every now and again, or searched back through
the archives, you'll find much comment - some of it actually informed
- on the whole issue of the long, slow process of bringing Oyster PAYG
to NR.

But if you're not interested in what the situation on the ground is
going to be in the future, or why it's taking so long to get there,
fare enough.

(I'm afraid I feel almost compelled to use that ultra-naff pun over
and over again, sorry!)


As for fraud, I've never seen those fake Savers tickets that
everyone keeps taliing about. And now they've gone, I'll never have
the chance to get someone come up to me in a pub and sell me a
dozen bus tickets for only a quid!

Point proven!

What point? *Being forced to obey the rules is a lot _less_ convenient
than being allowed to break them.

Eh? My point was that Saver tickets allow fraud. Not only that, but it
actually happened - see:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4379620.stm
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7071356.stm

You think ticketing systems should be designed specifically so as to
make fraud easier then? Interesting.

(And yes I liked Saver tickets - but then I moved over onto Oyster
PAYG. Savers were useful for occasional bus travellers, no doubt, or
for large parties travelling together - indeed they still are, as
existing ones are still valid for use. However it seems that
usefulness came at too great a potential cost. Shame, but if people
are going to scam the system...)


FWIW, I find the whole situation of Oyster PAYG not being accepted on
most NR routes utterly ridiculous - that's no surprise to anyone who's
said me say as much many times before. It's infuriating to be using an
Oyster card that has either reached a daily cap or is approaching a
cap and to then have to avoid using many NR services (and effectively
all of them south of the Thames). It's infuriating to know that I
could walk or run to a nearby station in x minutes, but possibly miss
the train I was heading for whilst waiting to buy a ticket - if only I
could just 'touch-in' and go. It's infuriating to have a Travelcard on
Oyster that doesn't include z1, and not being able to use that Oyster
card to get into zone 1 on NR and have the extension fare
automatically deducted... etc etc etc.

Exactly. *The situation causes at least as many problems as it solves,
and more often than not it's easier just forget about Oyster .

Yeah, thinking about it, I now realise you're absolutely right -
forget about it, it's a white elephant after all, all those millions
of people who happily use Oyster and find it convenient are obviously
total mugs, because whilst it suits them it doesn't suit a certain
"solar penguin".

You were trying to somehow argue that you weren't being a troll
earlier. How's that going?

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 8:36*pm, rail wrote:

In message
* * * * * Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 7:58*pm, Martin Petrov wrote:

[snip true stuff]

And the sooner every mode of transport in the zones accepts
[Oyster cards], the better.

[snip]

Canoe hire? Canal boat trip?

Is Oyster valid on the river buses?

Not to pay for river buses, no. However Travelcard holders - including
those loaded on Oyster - can get a third off scheduled riverboat
services - this discount has existed for some time.

Boris meanwhile has been making noises about getting Oyster 'accepted
on river buses' - i.e. to pay for them. We'll see where that goes -
though in terms of advantages, I can't see any particularly great
ones, as one is on board river buses long enough to pay for them
without any hassle (you don't have to pay on entry) - and whilst
they're not that expensive, they're not that cheap either - i.e.
they're a good step up from a London Tube or bus fare.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 3, 7:02 pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Martin Petrov wrote:

Drop the sarcasm cos it makes you look a cock.

Better than sounding like an Oyster-apologist suck-up troll.

You're the troll.

I've often been called that in the past. But right now I'm not arguing
purely to cause trouble, but out of a genuine desire to give the facts
for the other side of the argument.

And what the hell is this about being an "Oyster-
apologist" - what on earth is that meant to mean?


I don't know. To be honest, I'm not very good at insults. That was the
best I could manage.


Who the hell are you to
question whether or not "I've bought a paper ticket in the last
few years".

I'm someone who's had to buy hundreds of paper tickets in the past
few years, that's who!

That doesn't make you Martin though does it.


No, but if does make me sceptical when his experience is 100% opposite
from mine.

For example, if your personal experience tells you that water is wet,
you'd get very suspicious if someone claimed they'd only been using dry
water for years and then started ranting about how it was not fair that
they were forced to use wet water on a recent visit to Ilford.


If I tell you I've not, then I've not, ok?

That still doesn't stop it being very hard to believe.

In which case you are as blinkered as you're trying to paint Martin.


So what? We're all blinkered in our own different ways.


"There exists SOME journeys where you can't use an Oystercard".
Brilliant. Buy your paper ticket then.

Yes, like I said, for most journeys you still need to buy a paper
ticket. I'm glad you're finally seeing that.

What is this "most journeys" - you haven't actually defined what you
mean. Most people would I think take it to mean the majority of
journeys that are made. You now appear to be backpeddling to justify
your earlier comments by defining it as meaning all possible journeys
between any two stations in London. OK, *if* that's the definition
you're using then yes, I'd think paper tickets are required for the
majority of them.

I'm sorry if it looked like backpedalling. That wasn't my intention. I
probably should've explained earlier what I meant.


At least for one off travel - but for daily commutes, I dare say a
fair number of people make use of season Travelcards as the NR leg is
part of a longer journey. (And season Travelcards that don't include
z1 are actually quite good value. And of course any season Travelcard
can be bought on Oyster.)

Ok. I keep forgeting about season Travelcards. Butthere's nothing
_specifically_ Oysterish since you can get them on paper like normal
point-to-point seasons.


Only if the "everything else" means travelling in the same zones
that you already use for your daily commute. No use at all for
heading in the opposite direction, getting away from the built up
areas and the crowds.

Agreed. But that hardly makes Oyster useless.

I'll have to take your word for that, since I don't have much experience
with Travelcard seasons.

Even when I worked in central London, the offices were all in walking
distance of either Victoria, Blackfriars or London Bridge so a simple
point-to-point to London Terminals did the job. In fact, the last time
I used a Travelcard season was nearly 20 years ago!

Still I suppose there must be people who find Travelcard seasons useful
for their journeys. But if my experience is anything like typical,
there can't be that many of them.

(And any Travelcard is good for any London bus.)


I already admited Oyster is good for buses.


I use London
Overground a lot too which has obviously accepted pre-pay for
a good few years.

Which might be handy one day, but for now Overground is
completely useless for most journeys, since there's hardly
anything of it south of the river. So there's still the need
for a paper ticket to/from Clapham Junction to connect with it.

Overground is completely useless for most journeys? WTF are you
talking about?

There are lots and lots of places in London that are not served by
London Overground. London Overground is no use for nearly all the
possible journeys between these places. I don't see how I can put it
simpler than that.

OK, so your "most journey" definition does now appear to be "all
possible journeys between any two stations in London". Thanks for
clearing that up.


"Now?" It was that all along!

The Oystercard is magnificent north of the river.

Except if you're going to Ilford, obviously.

Or to Enfield or Alexandra Palace or Chingford or Elstree or New
Barnet or Romford or Hendon (by Thameslink, not Northern line) or
Gordon Hill or Turkey Street, all of which are "north of the river"
places I've caught trains to over the past few years (mostly as a
result of walking the various stretches of the London Loop and
Capital Ring).

So it's more accurate to say that Oyster is only "magnificent" in a
very few areas north of the river, but not in most of the places
that I actually want to go to.

You'll notice that on the few occasions when I did switch from all
possible journeys to examples of journeys that were actually made, I did
make it very clear that's what I was doing.


Balls. It's useful (aka "magnificent) in a *great many* areas north of
the river. But it's all about you of course.


Well, I can only draw on my own experience for examples.


I appreciate that
mainline, south of the river doesn't have the best coverage for
Oyster, but it's coming, and before long, all the TOCs in London
will move into the 21st century and accept it

True, but I'm not talking about some hypothetical future situation.
But the real situation on the ground over the past few years.
You're the one that brought up the subject of the past few years.
Don't try to wriggle out of it by jumping forwards in time .

And then what will you have to rant about?


Hopefully nothing. But unfortunately, there'll probably be something.
Public transport always goes out of it's way to be as crap as possible.


Yes, but just because it isn't useful for you hardly makes it a "white
elephant", as you said elsewhere. Unless the world revolves around
you. In which case we must redraw the solar system.

Why do you think I call myself the _solar_ penguin?

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

Mizter T wrote:


And having read this I want to turn down the heat on the discussion...
but before reading and replying to the above post I launched into you
in response to your reply to Martin. Which perhaps should serve as a
lesson to stand back when two posters are at loggerheads, rather than
throw oneself into the fray too.

That's Ok. The whole point of a group like this is to present the truth
as you see it. The more people presenting their truths the better.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 5:52*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

They would have been well within their rights to issue a Penalty Fare.
Unfortunately the root cause of this is the fact that TOCs have been
incredibly glacial in coming round to accepting Oyster PAYG
universally across London rail routes - they don't yet, of course,
though with some luck it might happen some time next year.

The trouble is, it always "might happen some", no matter what year it
just happens to be. *Forgive me for being cynical, but I really have a
hard time imagining this ever coming about.

As do many others. As I said in elsewhere at (boring) length, it's
coming. However, there's very good reason for being sceptical, if not
downright cynical - it's been coming for a very long time. However I
reckon it'll arrive sometime in 2010.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On 3 July, 18:53, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:





Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No - and I didn't say anything of the sort. That sentence was purely
meant to be descriptive of places that are both outside PAYG-land
*and* outside his Travelcard's zones. From Martin Petrov's
description, his season Travelcard either covers zones 1-3 or 2&3. And
it seems he doesn't go to these places, at least not by mainline
railways. All I was saying is that whilst you might think he's cutting
himself off by so doing, I'm quite sure his behaviour is hardly
unusual of many Londoners - different Londoners 'bits' of London are
unsurprisingly quite different - it's a big place after all. I do
however agree that people shouldn't cut themselves off from places
they don't know - there's a lot of richness of life out there not too
far away, and I'd always urge people to live on the adventurous side.
So don't start trying to say I was talking about no-go areas, as I
clearly wasn't.

Also, Travelcards loaded on Oyster are as valid as Travelcards on
paper -

Oh no they aren't, and the **** is going to hit the fan soon, since
ATOC and London Travelwatch are clearly gettting nowhere.

and anyone can get a Travelcard on Oyster quite easily, even
if they live somewhere where the local rail line doesn't accept Oyster
PAYG. You can't buy it from the station, sure, but the local shop (aka
"Oyster Ticket Stop") - of which there are a greatly increased number
these days - can provide.

The trouble with all this is that the arguments are about prefering
Oyster or not, which is a complete red herring. Oyster is just a
storage medium for tickets, credit and anything else someone thinks of
putting in it, as are my trousers.

The issue for me is the way that TfL and the TOCs refuse to
acknowledge, or implement simple solutions to, the problems and
inconveniences that arise from the introduction of new systems,
preferring to use each other's punters as hostages in their political
games. I really object to that.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

Yes, Auto Top-up is fantastic - but it's not for everyone. There's a
great many people who's finances are fairly chaotic, or even just very
tight - and money being taken just like that wouldn't really work out
too well.

Not so useful for infrequent users not living near a regular tube station.
I just spent £7 on Oyster due to being in London overnight without my bike
for the first time for some months. That is nearly as much as the total in
the first 6 months of the year of £9.60.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 4, 7:40*am, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Auto Top Up. Set it up once, and you never need to look online or
check your balance. I haven't had to go online for at least a year. My
only maintenance involves re-upping my Zone 1-3 once a month. And if
you must, stick your record card in your Oystercard wallet - then
you've the best of both worlds.

Yes, Auto Top-up is fantastic - but it's not for everyone. There's a
great many people who's finances are fairly chaotic, or even just very
tight - and money being taken just like that wouldn't really work out
too well.

Not so useful for infrequent users not living near a regular tube station..
I just spent £7 on Oyster due to being in London overnight without my bike
for the first time for some months. That is nearly as much as the total in
the first 6 months of the year of £9.60.

You only need to pass through the nominated Underground station *once*
in order to set it up. If you set it up online on one day (before
11pm), it will be available to be 'picked up' at that station from the
day afterwards, for the next eight days. From then onwards for as long
as you retain that particular Oyster card you don't ever need to
return to that station again, nor indeed use the Tube again - you can
just use buses.

You do need to start or finish making a journey in order to activate
the auto top-up facility (it can't just be picked up from a ticket
machine). However, you can get round this slightly be simply entering
a station through the gates and then exiting it again - for which
you'll be charged for a journey (the minimum fare from that station -
so £1.60 in zone 1), even though you didn't go anywhere. Some might
however consider this worth it in order to get it set up.

In your case however, given the very low usage, it perhaps wouldn't
really be of any significant benefit. (Just another company with whom
you have to update your credit/debit card details when you get a
replacement card!)

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

(trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

"John B" wrote

No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

The parts that aren't accessible by PAYG-enabled rail are still accessible
by PAYG bus.

Peter

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On 4 July, 08:47, John B wrote:
On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:





Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

(trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

Hampton Court Palace is in London, Hampton Court Station is in Surrey,
but it was brought into the travelcard zones years ago.

The flippant stuff about south London being worthless (along with
everyone who lives there) is obviously hilarious, but doesn't really
get us any further (in the argument or in travel).

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 3, 9:27*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:
Still I suppose there must be people who find Travelcard seasons useful
for their journeys. *But if my experience is anything like typical,
there can't be that many of them.

Similarly, if my auntie had a cock, she'd be my uncle.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 4, 8:47*am, John B wrote:

On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

"Oyster is still completely useless on most journeys" - total
balderdash, it's completely useful for an untold number of journeys
around London. However Oyster PAYG might be useless for most of the
journeys that you want to do - but don't use yourself as the basis for
everyone else!

Agreed that it doesn't appear that Mr Petrov has ventured outside
PAYG- land *and also* outside his Travelcard's zones - i.e. to some
of the further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail
(though they're pretty much all accessible by bus of course). But I
dare say the same applies for a great many number of Londoners.

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

(trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

In which case I'd say you're ****ing blinkered, John. Or more to the
point, engaging in some trolling - but that does appear to be the
recurrent theme of this thread.

And no, I'm not going to play this game of listing off places. I'll
let you live on in ignorance.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 4, 9:08*am, MIG wrote:

On 4 July, 08:47, John B wrote:

On Jul 3, 6:00*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote:

[snip]

"The further reaches of London accessible only by suburban rail"? *And
what about the great many number of Londoners who happen to live in
these mysterious, far-off, unexplored no-go areas? *Don't we count?

No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

(trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

Hampton Court Palace is in London, Hampton Court Station is in Surrey,
but it was brought into the travelcard zones years ago.

The flippant stuff about south London being worthless (along with
everyone who lives there) is obviously hilarious, but doesn't really
get us any further (in the argument or in travel).

No, it just gives us an insight into the 'superior mindset' of one
John Band. You stay in Islington, John.

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 4, 9:08*am, MIG wrote:
No. If all the parts of London inaccessible by Oyster PAYG were wiped
off the map tomorrow, it'd be no great loss.

(trying, and struggling, to think of anything in London worth visiting
that isn't PAYG-able. Is Hampton Court technically in London or
Surrey? I suppose Blackheath is quite nice.)

Hampton Court Palace is in London, Hampton Court Station is in Surrey,
but it was brought into the travelcard zones years ago.

The flippant stuff about south London being worthless (along with
everyone who lives there) is obviously hilarious, but doesn't really
get us any further (in the argument or in travel).

Agreed. It's masking a more serious point though: if you don't live in
South-London-outside-z2, then you'll probably never go there, because
- while lots of fabulous people live excellent lives, contribute to
the community, pay their taxes, etc - there is nothing of much
interest to outsiders there. Except possibly Greenwich, which is on
the DLR.

Living in z2 North London, I hardly ever have to make journeys where
PAYG isn't valid (the exception is for work trips to my company's
satellite office in Kentish Borisland, for which buying an extension
ticket is indeed a moderate pain in the arse). Nor do pretty much any
of the inner-London dwellers I know.

However, if I lived in z4-6 non-Tube South London, I'd probably have a
point-to-point rail season ticket. And if I didn't go out in town much
(or at least, didn't venture far from Victoria, Charing Cross and
Cannon Street when I did), then that's quite possibly all I'd have,
especially if I'd lived there since pre-Oyster days and wasn't used to
the whole Oyster concept.

This presumably explains why Solar Penguin and Martin have such
difficulty relating to each other's point of view, despite sharing the
same city...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Penalty Fares at mainline stations inside the zones....
 

On Jul 4, 10:02*am, John B wrote:
Agreed. It's masking a more serious point though: if you don't live in
South-London-outside-z2, then you'll probably never go there, because
- while lots of fabulous people live excellent lives, contribute to
the community, pay their taxes, etc - there is nothing of much
interest to outsiders there. Except possibly Greenwich, which is on
the DLR.

I had a footnote here which said "the same is pretty much true for
North London outside z3", but it got lost in editing. The point is not
that South London is crap, it's that while there are plenty of
perfectly likeable towns in outer suburbia with pretty parks, decent
bars, nice restaurants, interesting shops, etc, in all of outer
London, there is nothing that compares to the draw of z1-2 when it
comes to history, culture or nightlife.

However, if I lived in z4-6 non-Tube South London, I'd probably have a
point-to-point rail season ticket. And if I didn't go out in town much
(or at least, didn't venture far from Victoria, Charing Cross and
Cannon Street when I did), then that's quite possibly all I'd have,
especially if I'd lived there since pre-Oyster days and wasn't used to
the whole Oyster concept.

Just following up on this one - as someone who grew up in suburban GE
land and then suburban SW land, I don't think I've ever fully
appreciated the difference that living on the south-central and south-
eastern routes has from all other commuter routes until thinking about
it just now: for most of central London's workplaces, cultural centres
and historical attractions, you don't actually need anything more than
one point-to-point season ticket. And you don't actually ever need to
use the Tube, which is something that I've tended to view as a
unifying force between suburban commuters and inner-London dwellers...

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org