378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On Jul 14, 7:20*am, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"John B" wrote



Removing the 3rd seat from the 313s (making them 2+2 with a wide
aisle) has significantly improved the travelling experience, on the
couple of times I've used full NLL trains since they made the change.
I'm sure that longitudinal seating will be similarly helpful.

How do the number of (longitudinal) seats in a 4-car 378 compare with the
number of (transverse 2+2) seats in a 313 as currently used on LO?

Peter

Class 378s have about 30 seats less per car (DMSO are 36 in 378 to 66
in Class 313/1, centre cars are 40 (TSO) or 36 (MSO) in 378s compared
to 70 in the 313/1) so 90 less seats per unit of which 36 will be
regained when units are lengthened to 4 cars.

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

In article ,
Andy wrote:
The number of accessible stations certainly mean
that the trains should be accessible as well, regardless of the law
saying that they must be.

The accessibility of stations today is something of a red herring.

Trains tend to have wheels and can move from one route to another;
a non-accessible train will not be able to be used on routes which
do have accessible stations - or will be probably unacceptable
reduction in service if they do.

Secondly, trains have a lifetime of 20 or 30 years. In that time
accessibility is likely to improve on the current routes. It would
be a waste to have a station with platforms all can reach, but
trains that only some can use.


--
:wq

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 13, 8:45 pm, "neverwas" wrote:

This has been accompanied by a new London Overground 'microsite' on
the TfL website, which sings the praises of LO and the routes they
operate:
Oddly they have used the (Google) map locations which appear to come
from nationalrail.co.uk rather than the ones with the tube symbol. So
some of the markers are way out: eg Homerton is marked about 300m East
of its proper location.

I think the use of Google Maps might possibly be a result of the
leaner TfL marketing operation post-Bozza cutbacks. I do think it
looks a bit cheap, though I'm sure it could be defended as making use
of free/low-cost tools that are out there etc.

Whatever the reason, it's got some obvious crap - they've got Westfield
located in the residential area of Shepherd's Bush north of Uxbridge
Road and west of the H&C bridge. The Emirates Stadium is moved a few
hundred yards east, too. If this is an example, the Bozza view of what
Londoners are interested in appears to be markets, shopping centres,
sport, healthy open air and the history of the upper classes.

Also, 'shopping' is defined as 'big shopping centre' or 'market' rather
than 'large collection of shops in a town centre conveniently near an
Overground station so you can leave the car at home', such as Richmond.
Are there really only eight places you can shop near LO stations?
It's one thing being cheap (and I do love Google Maps for knocking up
quick illustrations of things), it's another not doing the basic
research or apparently having much idea of what you're trying to achieve.

[some of them are rather tenuous, too - Syon House isn't exactly near an
Overground station, it's about a two mile hike from Gunnersbury, yet
they miss out Hampstead Heath, which has an LO station named after it]

Tom

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On 14 July, 10:44, Mike Bristow wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Andy wrote:

* * * * * * * * * * *The number of accessible stations certainly mean
that the trains should be accessible as well, regardless of the law
saying that they must be.

The accessibility of stations today is something of a red herring.

Trains tend to have wheels and can move from one route to another;
a non-accessible train will not be able to be used on routes which
do have accessible stations - or will be probably unacceptable
reduction in service if they do.

Secondly, trains have a lifetime of 20 or 30 years. *In that time
accessibility is likely to improve on the current routes. *It would
be a waste to have a station with platforms all can reach, but
trains that only some can use.


Ahh, but the question would be do you make the trains fit the stations
or the stations fit the trains. One of the problems with accessibility
on the LO lines will be the section from Queens Park - Harrow &
Wealdstone where trains with different floor heights will be in use
for the foreseable future (1972 Mk II Bakerloo and 313/378 LO trains).
Any solution to allow level boarding of trains is going to have to
take this difference into account. The 'ideal' solution for this
route, in isolation, would be low-floor LO units allowing the
platforms to be lowered, but the 'real life' costs would be huge as
all the other routes would have to be adjusted to fit the trains and
you'd get the problem moved to lines shared with other high floor
stock such as Gunnersbury - Richmond and the West London Line. So the
stations will have to be made to fit the trains; level access at most
locations, but an alternative solution for the route shared between
Bakerloo and LO. The existing 313 units are already as accessible as
their replacements will be, from the point of view of level access and
having spaces for wheelchairs.

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On Jul 14, 11:27 am, Tom Barry wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 13, 8:45 pm, "neverwas" wrote:

This has been accompanied by a new London Overground 'microsite' on
the TfL website, which sings the praises of LO and the routes they
operate:

Oddly they have used the (Google) map locations which appear to come
from nationalrail.co.uk rather than the ones with the tube symbol. So
some of the markers are way out: eg Homerton is marked about 300m East
of its proper location.

I think the use of Google Maps might possibly be a result of the
leaner TfL marketing operation post-Bozza cutbacks. I do think it
looks a bit cheap, though I'm sure it could be defended as making use
of free/low-cost tools that are out there etc.

Whatever the reason, it's got some obvious crap - they've got Westfield
located in the residential area of Shepherd's Bush north of Uxbridge
Road and west of the H&C bridge. The Emirates Stadium is moved a few
hundred yards east, too. If this is an example, the Bozza view of what
Londoners are interested in appears to be markets, shopping centres,
sport, healthy open air and the history of the upper classes.

Also, 'shopping' is defined as 'big shopping centre' or 'market' rather
than 'large collection of shops in a town centre conveniently near an
Overground station so you can leave the car at home', such as Richmond.
Are there really only eight places you can shop near LO stations?
It's one thing being cheap (and I do love Google Maps for knocking up
quick illustrations of things), it's another not doing the basic
research or apparently having much idea of what you're trying to achieve.

[some of them are rather tenuous, too - Syon House isn't exactly near an
Overground station, it's about a two mile hike from Gunnersbury, yet
they miss out Hampstead Heath, which has an LO station named after it]

Perhaps we should do our own?! (Says he who has embarrassingly little
experience of knocking things up on Google Maps... afraid that my
preference for 'conventional' A-Z style cartography probably rather
blinded me to the possibilities of Google Mappery for quite a while.
Seems I might be something of a Luddite!)

The NLL (and WLL) are of course great for hacking round London and
getting to lots of interesting places. The NLL is a most fascinating
route!

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

Tom Barry wrote:

This has been accompanied by a new London Overground 'microsite' on
the TfL website, which sings the praises of LO and the routes they
operate:

If this is an example, the
Bozza view of what Londoners are interested in appears to be markets,
shopping centres, sport, healthy open air and the history of the
upper classes.

Do you really think Bozza himself decided what features would be on this
map? Or even that there would be a map?

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

Mizter T wrote:


Perhaps we should do our own?! (Says he who has embarrassingly little
experience of knocking things up on Google Maps... afraid that my
preference for 'conventional' A-Z style cartography probably rather
blinded me to the possibilities of Google Mappery for quite a while.
Seems I might be something of a Luddite!)

I've done a number for my own amusement, the Boris Airport one got quite
well received. Should be quite possible, although the buttons to switch
between various views are more intricate (and I haven't got a server to
run them on).

What we'd need would be a list of interesting things to see within, say,
half a mile (or an easy bus ride) of an LO station, plus good shopping
areas, sporting facilities, cinemas and anything people might normally
drive to that you can say 'look, you can get there on shiny new trains
for quite reasonable fares'.

The NLL (and WLL) are of course great for hacking round London and
getting to lots of interesting places. The NLL is a most fascinating
route!

Yes, it's just annoying how badly it integrates with all the lines it
crosses! You could hardly have done worse deliberately (particularly
the Northern and Piccadilly, for the way they manage to avoid
interchanging properly with both the NLL *and* the GOBLIN).

Tom

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

Basil Jet wrote:
Tom Barry wrote:
This has been accompanied by a new London Overground 'microsite' on
the TfL website, which sings the praises of LO and the routes they
operate:
If this is an example, the
Bozza view of what Londoners are interested in appears to be markets,
shopping centres, sport, healthy open air and the history of the
upper classes.

Do you really think Bozza himself decided what features would be on this
map? Or even that there would be a map?



Well, he he is Chairman of TfL and has well known views on history,
sport, getting outside for some fresh air and London's markets. I
shouldn't think he sat down and lectured the web designers, but it would
be foolish to assume he has no impact on TfL's website - his predecessor
definitely left his spirit all over the place - see here :
http://imovelondon.tfl.gov.uk/

Just because the boss doesn't order you around directly doesn't mean you
don't subconsciously consider what he might approve of.

Tom

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

"Tom Barry" wrote

Yes, it's just annoying how badly it integrates with all the lines it
crosses! You could hardly have done worse deliberately (particularly the
Northern and Piccadilly, for the way they manage to avoid interchanging
properly with both the NLL *and* the GOBLIN).

I agree that the Goblin doesn't connect well, other than at its ends and
with the Victoria at Blackhorse Road. But the NLL isn't as bad as you seem
to imply. Hackney Central/Hackney Downs are very close. At Highbury &
Islington there's a connection with the Victoria and Northern City lines,
which themselves connect with the GNML and the Piccadilly at Finsbury Park.
Camden Road is close to Camden Town, and it is impracticable to make great
improvements, though a lot could be done to improve interchange at West
Hampstead.

There does seem to be a need for a passenger service between Willesden
Junction and Ealing Broadway, as well as Slow Line platforms at Willesden
Junction.

Peter

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

Peter Masson wrote:

Hackney Central/Hackney Downs are very close.

I doubt if it's a fun walk after dark.

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On Jul 14, 2:53*pm, "Basil Jet"
wrote:

Peter Masson wrote:

Hackney Central/Hackney Downs are very close.

I doubt if it's a fun walk after dark.

It's alright. However the difference between the staffed, clean and
evidently cared for LO station at Hackney Central and the unstaffed
Hackney Downs, with it's grotty little entrance on Dalston Lane that
feels more like it was an afterthought or a subsidiary or side
entrance, is quite noticeable. Which is stupid really, as Hackney
Downs to Liverpool Street has metro-esque frequencies.

Were there not some plans to somehow link the stations up directly?
Whatever, the entrance situation at Hackney Downs can and should be
radically improved (basically totally rebuilt - perhaps with the
entrance directly under the bridge if it's possible to knowk through
the brickwork there), and it should be staffed at all times too.

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

There does seem to be a need for a passenger service between Willesden
Junction and Ealing Broadway

Peter

Interesting suggestion. While I don't disagree can you justify it? And,
are you suggesting just that short hop or using that piece of track as part
of something bigger (e.g. Barking (by electrifying Goblin) to Heathrow)?

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On 14 July, 15:15, Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 14, 2:53*pm, "Basil Jet"

wrote:
Peter Masson wrote:

Hackney Central/Hackney Downs are very close.

I doubt if it's a fun walk after dark.

It's alright. However the difference between the staffed, clean and
evidently cared for LO station at Hackney Central and the unstaffed
Hackney Downs, with it's grotty little entrance on Dalston Lane that
feels more like it was an afterthought or a subsidiary or side
entrance, is quite noticeable. Which is stupid really, as Hackney
Downs to Liverpool Street has metro-esque frequencies.

Were there not some plans to somehow link the stations up directly?
Whatever, the entrance situation at Hackney Downs can and should be
radically improved (basically totally rebuilt - perhaps with the
entrance directly under the bridge if it's possible to knowk through
the brickwork there), and it should be staffed at all times too.

Yep - it's not the nicest walk (pretty rough blocks on once side) but
in the 5 years I lived in the neighbourhood I walked between the
stations regularly at all times of day and night, and never had the
slightest problem.

Fully agree on the naffness of Hackney Downs's (eats shoots and
leaves?) entrance, and wish that they could solve the problem of the
short-walk-but-not-really-an-interchange with Central. What about a
more radical solution of closing the Downs station and building new
platforms above the NLL? (I appreciate how unlikely this would be to
ever be implemented....)

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

snip
It's alright
snip
Yep - it's not the nicest walk (pretty rough blocks on once side) but
in the 5 years I lived in the neighbourhood I walked between the
stations regularly at all times of day and night, and never had the
slightest problem.

I too agree but would add that waiting on the platform at Hackney Downs
can be a bit more perturbing.

Also, without wanting to be a bore, may I mention that Hackney Downs is
another station Google maps shows in the wrong place? A stranger to the
station might well think from the map they have to go along Institute
Place; and that is what Google directions indicate.

--
R

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

"Graham Harrison" wrote in message
...
There does seem to be a need for a passenger service between Willesden
Junction and Ealing Broadway

Interesting suggestion. While I don't disagree can you justify it?
And, are you suggesting just that short hop or using that piece of track
as part of something bigger (e.g. Barking (by electrifying Goblin) to
Heathrow)?
I doubt that there'd be enough passengers to justify taking Heathrow paths
away from HEx and HConn/Crossrail. But how about Barking - Gospel Oak (would
need rebuilding so that through trains could call) - Willesden Junction -
Ealing Broadway - Greenford. There would be same platform interchange at
Ealing Broadway for Heathrow, and it would give a better route to Heathrow
from the FCC Bedford line and the Jubilee Stanmore line (via West
Hampstead), and, at least if Willesden Junction were ever to gain Slow Line
platforms, the Milton Keynes line.

IMHO curtailing the Ealing Greenford line to a shuttle from West Ealing will
be a considerable disbenefit - passengers for the LUL District Line will
have to change twice at West Ealing and Ealing Broadway, though passengers
for the Central Line will be able to circulate the other way via Greenford.

Peter

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On 14 July, 11:27, Tom Barry wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 13, 8:45 pm, "neverwas" wrote:

This has been accompanied by a new London Overground 'microsite' on
the TfL website, which sings the praises of LO and the routes they
operate:
Oddly they have used the *(Google) map locations which appear to come
from nationalrail.co.uk rather than the ones with the tube symbol. *So
some of the markers are way out: eg Homerton is marked about 300m East
of its proper location.

I think the use of Google Maps might possibly be a result of the
leaner TfL marketing operation post-Bozza cutbacks. I do think it
looks a bit cheap, though I'm sure it could be defended as making use
of free/low-cost tools that are out there etc.

Whatever the reason, it's got some obvious crap - they've got Westfield
located in the residential area of Shepherd's Bush north of Uxbridge
Road and west of the H&C bridge. *The Emirates Stadium is moved a few
hundred yards east, too. *

From other limited experience, Google Maps seems to put the arrows in
the right place if you look at them from the Google site, but puts
them in the wrong place when you embed maps in other sites.

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

Peter Masson wrote:

But how about Barking -
Gospel Oak (would need rebuilding so that through trains could call)
- Willesden Junction - Ealing Broadway - Greenford.

Gospel Oak is one of the worst sited stations in London - its catchment area
is a quarter parkland and a quarter cut off by other railways. Building
platforms at Tufnell Park (with entrances at both ends of Churchill Road)
and running the Greblin through Gospel Oak without stopping must have a
better cost-benefit ratio.

IMHO curtailing the Ealing Greenford line to a shuttle from West
Ealing will be a considerable disbenefit - passengers for the LUL
District Line will have to change twice at West Ealing and Ealing
Broadway, though passengers for the Central Line will be able to
circulate the other way via Greenford.

But the curtailment must surely be to make capacity for other trains between
West Ealing and Ealing Broadway, and your plan doesn't address that.

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...


"Graham Harrison" wrote in
message ...
There does seem to be a need for a passenger service between Willesden
Junction and Ealing Broadway

Interesting suggestion. While I don't disagree can you justify it? And,
are you suggesting just that short hop or using that piece of track as
part of something bigger (e.g. Barking (by electrifying Goblin) to
Heathrow)?
I doubt that there'd be enough passengers to justify taking Heathrow paths
away from HEx and HConn/Crossrail. But how about Barking - Gospel Oak
(would need rebuilding so that through trains could call) - Willesden
Junction - Ealing Broadway - Greenford. There would be same platform
interchange at Ealing Broadway for Heathrow, and it would give a better
route to Heathrow from the FCC Bedford line and the Jubilee Stanmore line
(via West Hampstead), and, at least if Willesden Junction were ever to
gain Slow Line platforms, the Milton Keynes line.

IMHO curtailing the Ealing Greenford line to a shuttle from West Ealing
will be a considerable disbenefit - passengers for the LUL District Line
will have to change twice at West Ealing and Ealing Broadway, though
passengers for the Central Line will be able to circulate the other way
via Greenford.

Peter

I wonder if curtailment at West Ealing is about capacity through the flat
junction? Which makes any use of the line up to the NLL from the GWML an
issue as well. Combine the 2 routes and I suspect you have a complete
no-no so long as they remain flat junctions.

It all depends what the real target is. Willesden Junction to Ealing would
be nice but I can't really see it's a requirement. Willesden Junction to
Heathrow makes more sense but other than using the GWML/NLL link the only
other route I can see would be through South Acton then along the
(unelectrified) line to Kew, along the Hounslow loop to wherever Airtrack
joins (if that ever happens and if the junctions point the right way).

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

"Graham Harrison" wrote

I wonder if curtailment at West Ealing is about capacity through the flat
junction? Which makes any use of the line up to the NLL from the GWML an
issue as well. Combine the 2 routes and I suspect you have a complete
no-no so long as they remain flat junctions.

West Ealing will remain a flat junction, though current timetabling makes
the best of it, with up and down Greenford trains passing each other at or
close to the junction. The Crossrail proposals take the spur from Acton
Wells round the back of Acton Main Line station, with a diveunder so that
the down spur joins the down relief without conflicting with the up relief.

Peter

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:41:05 +0100, "Peter Masson"
wrote:



"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote

I thought the Cross Town LinkLine connecting Camden Road to North Woolwich
opened in 1979, before Livingstone was running the GLC?
Indeed. Initially it was a dmu operation between North Woolwich and Camden
Road, with no intermediate stations between Stratford and Canonbury. At
first off-peak trains at least were very lightly loaded - on one occasion,
when I was the only passenger in the front coach (of 2), the driver invited
me into the cab.


Possibly the same driver who gave me a cab ride? I had only been working
for BR for a few weeks and this was one of the first rides I took with
my priv pass. ISTR the driver was very keen that the new service should
be a success - which, eventually, it was.


--
Bill Hayles

http://billnot.com

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

In message , Mike Bristow
writes
Secondly, trains have a lifetime of 20 or 30 years.
Where did you get that idea? In 68 I was working on 38 stock, which
continued for some years afterwards.
--
Clive

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

"Clive" wrote in message
...
In message , Mike Bristow
writes
Secondly, trains have a lifetime of 20 or 30 years.
Where did you get that idea? In 68 I was working on 38 stock, which
continued for some years afterwards.

Er? 1938 stock is still in daily use, on Island Line.

Peter

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

In article ,
(Clive) wrote:

In message , Mike Bristow
writes
Secondly, trains have a lifetime of 20 or 30 years.
Where did you get that idea? In 68 I was working on 38 stock,
which continued for some years afterwards.

30-50 years is more typical of electric trains. There have been
exceptions, though. Anyone remember the 1983TS, built 1983-6?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

378s to be unveiled today - BBC
 

On 13 July, 10:08, "Paul Scott"
wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8147134.stm

I wonder if they'll actually enter passenger service today as well?

Paul

I saw a 378 between Harrow & Wealdstone and Headstone Lane today.

I was too fast and too distant to be able to tell what it was doing,
but it's the first time I've seen one outside of Willesden depot.