Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

In the thread "Crossrail preferred route" earlier this month, I raised the
question of what happens to the 6 tph westbound after 12 tph go to Richmond
(of which 4 tph continue to Kingston) and 6 tph go to Heathrow. At the
exhibition in Paddington Library this week, a Crossrail representative said
that the remaining 6 tph would terminate at Paddington. They would then run
empty up to the surface where some reversing sidings would be provided.

The Crossrail station at Paddington will have only 2 platforms. This means
that in the peak 24 tph westbound service, every fourth train will have to
be emptied on the sole westbound track, presumably with tube-style positive
checks that each of the 10 cars is empty, before proceeding to the sidings.
Is this practicable when the service interval is 2.5 minutes? The only
similar situation on LU that I can think of is at Rayners Lane, but I think
that the combined Piccadilly/Metropolitan frequency there is not as
demanding. Are there any other examples of trains in a frequent service
being terminated on the same track as following through services?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
...

In the thread "Crossrail preferred route" earlier this month,
I raised the question of what happens to the 6 tph westbound
after 12 tph go to Richmond (of which 4 tph continue to
Kingston) and 6 tph go to Heathrow. At the exhibition in
Paddington Library this week, a Crossrail representative
said that the remaining 6 tph would terminate at Paddington.

They are saying that, but I don't think they mean it.

They would then run empty up to the surface
where some reversing sidings would be provided.

Are there any other examples of trains in a frequent service
being terminated on the same track as following through services?

Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared train was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).
Bakerloo at Queens Park.
Kennington Charing Cross branch.
Somewhere on the Jubilee.... Willesden Green, I think.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Richard J." wrote in message
...

In the thread "Crossrail preferred route" earlier this month,
I raised the question of what happens to the 6 tph westbound
after 12 tph go to Richmond (of which 4 tph continue to
Kingston) and 6 tph go to Heathrow. At the exhibition in
Paddington Library this week, a Crossrail representative
said that the remaining 6 tph would terminate at Paddington.

They are saying that, but I don't think they mean it.

They expressed doubts about the cost-benefit of extending to, say, Slough.
Although this makes the line unbalanced, it supports the regeneration
projects in the east.

They would then run empty up to the surface
where some reversing sidings would be provided.

Are there any other examples of trains in a frequent service
being terminated on the same track as following through services?

Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared train was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).
Bakerloo at Queens Park.
Kennington Charing Cross branch.
Somewhere on the Jubilee.... Willesden Green, I think.

Thanks. Was it the Liverpool Street fatality that led to the current rules
about checking every car? And were the Central & Bakerloo timetables
altered to allow for the longer dwell time when tipping out?
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared train was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).

What on earth happened? how did an incompletely cleared train lead to a death?

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"dan" wrote in message
om...
Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared train
was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).

What on earth happened? how did an incompletely cleared train lead to a
death?

The Tube driver killed him?

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared train was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).
Bakerloo at Queens Park.
Kennington Charing Cross branch.
Somewhere on the Jubilee.... Willesden Green, I think.

wasn't it between 28tph and 33tph

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"Ed Crowley" wrote in message
.. .

"dan" wrote in message
om...
Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared
train
was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what
the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).

What on earth happened? how did an incompletely cleared train lead to a
death?

The Tube driver killed him?

As was the practice on lul, trains that were going to sidings and comeing
back out again was an anouncement over the trains PA. at liverpool st the
drive made the anouncement and after he thought the train was emptied he
closed the doors went into the siding. on the way into the siding a bloke on
train woke up and tried to leave the train by jumping out between the
carridges onto the platform. but he mistimed it and jumped out into the
tunnel. hit the wall and fell under the last carridge. now all trains have
to be manually check before reversings via sidings.

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...

"Ed Crowley" wrote in message
.. .

"dan" wrote in message
om...
Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared
train
was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what
the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).

What on earth happened? how did an incompletely cleared train lead to
a
death?

The Tube driver killed him?

As was the practice on lul, trains that were going to sidings and comeing
back out again was an anouncement over the trains PA. at liverpool st the
drive made the anouncement and after he thought the train was emptied he
closed the doors went into the siding. on the way into the siding a bloke
on
train woke up and tried to leave the train by jumping out between the
carridges onto the platform. but he mistimed it and jumped out into the
tunnel. hit the wall and fell under the last carridge. now all trains have
to be manually check before reversings via sidings.

What a pillock. He could have used the alarm! The gene pool is the real
winner here.

That Liverpoool Street fatality a few years ago (was Crossrail: Paddington reversers)
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...

As was the practice on lul, trains that were going to
sidings and comeing back out again was an anouncement
over the trains PA. at liverpool st the drive made the
anouncement and after he thought the train was emptied he
closed the doors went into the siding. on the way into the
siding a bloke on train woke up and tried to leave the train
by jumping out between the carridges onto the platform.

I don't remember it like that... ISTR he was just walking through the train
to the driver, but as he was passing between two carriages the train went
around an extreme curve to enter the sidings between the running lines, and
he fell between the carriages.

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

That Liverpoool Street fatality a few years ago (was Crossrail: Paddington reversers)
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Rob" wrote in message
...

As was the practice on lul, trains that were going to
sidings and comeing back out again was an anouncement
over the trains PA. at liverpool st the drive made the
anouncement and after he thought the train was emptied he
closed the doors went into the siding. on the way into the
siding a bloke on train woke up and tried to leave the train
by jumping out between the carridges onto the platform.

I don't remember it like that... ISTR he was just walking through the
train
to the driver, but as he was passing between two carriages the train went
around an extreme curve to enter the sidings between the running lines,
and
he fell between the carriages.

That is the version we were told during training (plus the gory details)
And as for someone's comment about the gene-pool, IIRC the young man was a
medical student.

Kat

Gory details - you do *NOT* have to read it!
 

"Kat" wrote in message
...

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"Rob" wrote in message
...

As was the practice on lul, trains that were going to
sidings and comeing back out again was an anouncement
over the trains PA. at liverpool st the drive made the
anouncement and after he thought the train was emptied he
closed the doors went into the siding. on the way into the
siding a bloke on train woke up and tried to leave the train
by jumping out between the carridges onto the platform.

I don't remember it like that... ISTR he was just walking through the
train
to the driver, but as he was passing between two carriages the train
went
around an extreme curve to enter the sidings between the running lines,
and
he fell between the carriages.

That is the version we were told during training (plus the gory details)
And as for someone's comment about the gene-pool, IIRC the young man was a
medical student.

As the only person that knew for sure what he was intending to do ended up
with his neck on the right hand running rail with 5 carriages wheels going
over it resulting in it being the thickness of a rizla paper, nobody will
ever know for sure if he was trying to leave the train or make contact with
the driver.

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"Rob" wrote in message ...

Central Line at Liverpool Street (where an incompletely cleared train was
responsible for a fatality a few years back, but I don't know what the
frequency was at the hour of the fatality).
Bakerloo at Queens Park.
Kennington Charing Cross branch.
Somewhere on the Jubilee.... Willesden Green, I think.

wasn't it between 28tph and 33tph

Isn't there a loop at kennington? There used to be.

next part not for the squeamish...... seriously....



















Isn't that tunnel incident the one where the guy tried to get out
between carraiges when he realised it had terminated and the tunnel
went round a corner and squashed him? Always men isn't it, we're not
too clever. I can't imagine that happening on a passenger-laden train.

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

On 1 Nov 2003 14:09:12 -0800, (CJC)
wrote:


Isn't that tunnel incident the one where the guy tried to get out
between carraiges when he realised it had terminated and the tunnel
went round a corner and squashed him? Always men isn't it, we're not
too clever. I can't imagine that happening on a passenger-laden train.


Sort of.


The incident involved a Central Line train terminating at Liverpool
Street. The guy got squashed as he tried to get out between the cars
when it was shunting to the sidings east of Liverpool Street.

Others here know more...


Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"CJC" wrote in message
om...

Kennington Charing Cross branch.

Isn't there a loop at kennington?

Yes. So? The train still has to be cleared with the following train queueing
behind it, just as it would at Paddington Crossrail

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"CJC" wrote in message
om...

Kennington Charing Cross branch.

Isn't there a loop at kennington?

Yes. So? The train still has to be cleared with the following train
queueing
behind it, just as it would at Paddington Crossrail

LUL trains don't have an enclosed gangway between their very closely coupled
cars, and significant gaps can open up between them on sharp curves through
which a human could fall, the major factor in how the unfortunate gentleman
at Liverpool Street met his end. Modern mainline rolling stock by contrast
has enclosed corridor connections, so it can be made nearly impossible for
someone to fall out of a moving train (certainly no more in a siding move
than anywhere in normal passenger service). As long as such standards are
followed , and the move to a reversing siding is protected to full passenger
signalling standards (TCs clear, FPLs bolted, flank traps and forward train
protection proved in place) then I can see no reason a case couldn't be made
not to fully check the train before proceding, as long as a walk through is
carried out once berthed in the siding and a safe procedure for removing
people found is in place.

--
Mark
http://www.maprail.com/

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"Mark Townend" wrote in message
...
"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"CJC" wrote in message
om...

Kennington Charing Cross branch.

Isn't there a loop at kennington?

Yes. So? The train still has to be cleared with the following train
queueing
behind it, just as it would at Paddington Crossrail

LUL trains don't have an enclosed gangway between their very closely
coupled
cars, and significant gaps can open up between them on sharp curves
through
which a human could fall, the major factor in how the unfortunate
gentleman
at Liverpool Street met his end. Modern mainline rolling stock by
contrast
has enclosed corridor connections, so it can be made nearly impossible
for
someone to fall out of a moving train (certainly no more in a siding move
than anywhere in normal passenger service). As long as such standards are
followed , and the move to a reversing siding is protected to full
passenger
signalling standards (TCs clear, FPLs bolted, flank traps and forward
train
protection proved in place) then I can see no reason a case couldn't be
made
not to fully check the train before proceding, as long as a walk through
is
carried out once berthed in the siding and a safe procedure for removing
people found is in place.

This seems to be the case already on the DLR. The end doors need a key to
open them from the inside, so the passenger area is secure. I didn't
notice any walk-through before the doors were closed at Bank yesterday and
the train departed for the siding.

However, with large numbers of foreign visitors likely to use Crossrail to
get to Heathrow, reliance on a PA announcement would not be sufficient to
dislodge everyone. They will need extra platform staff at Paddington IMO.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...
"CJC" wrote in message
om...

Kennington Charing Cross branch.

Isn't there a loop at kennington?

Yes. So? The train still has to be cleared with the following train
queueing
behind it, just as it would at Paddington Crossrail

If they were going to reverse some of the trains at Paddington, would it not
be obvious to put in a platform in the Paddington station specifically for
terminating trains. Edgware Road might be an inspiration.
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

Crossrail: Paddington reversers
 

"Richard J." wrote in message ...

However, with large numbers of foreign visitors likely to use Crossrail to
get to Heathrow, reliance on a PA announcement would not be sufficient to
dislodge everyone. They will need extra platform staff at Paddington IMO.

CCTV could play a useful role in checking the cars. It is likely that
cameras will be installed for security purposes, in any case, so it
may be possible to use them for this purpose also.