W&C timetable oddities
 

If you download the Bank to Waterloo timetable from the TFL site, it has odd
footnotes which serve no obvious purpose.... does anyone know how this quirk
got into the system?

W&C timetable oddities
 

"Basil Jet" wrote

If you download the Bank to Waterloo timetable from the TFL site, it has
odd footnotes which serve no obvious purpose.... does anyone know how this
quirk got into the system?

I assume you mean this one:
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__00004f19.pdf
(I wish you'd posted the link: it's not easy to find!)
I don't know the answer. I agree with you that it's daft!

W&C timetable oddities
 

"John Salmon" wrote in message
...
"Basil Jet" wrote

If you download the Bank to Waterloo timetable from the TFL site, it has
odd footnotes which serve no obvious purpose.... does anyone know how
this quirk got into the system?

I assume you mean this one:
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__00004f19.pdf

page cannot be found

(I assume that this was personal timetable that you created?)

tim

W&C timetable oddities
 

Basil Jet wrote on 29 September
2009 18:37:35 ...
If you download the Bank to Waterloo timetable from the TFL site, it has odd
footnotes which serve no obvious purpose.... does anyone know how this quirk
got into the system?

Thanks for the lack of a link! Select Getting Around / Timetables /
Tube and bus, scroll down to "Tube timetable - Tube line", select W&C,
select "Towards Bank", select from the list of stations "Waterloo" [1],
click on "View Waterloo Underground Station timetable" (what else do
they think I want to do?), and hey presto, a PDF timetable appears.
Well, a timetable for first and last trains and "about every X to Y
minutes" for the rest of the day. The footnotes apply to the first and
last trains, thus (for Waterloo to Bank):

a=only Wednesday and Friday, b=not on Wednesday and Friday, c=not on
Monday and Wednesday, d=only Monday and Wednesday

Then you realise that there are pairs of trains departing at the same
time, one with 'a' and the other with 'b', or with 'c' and 'd'.

My theory is that there is a half-minute difference in departure time in
the working timetable on certain days which leads to different entries,
but the times in the public timetable are rounded to whole minutes.
That theory would explain why on the Bank departures timetable, one pair
of early morning departures is listed in b-a order instead of a-b. But
I can't quite see how the theory fits the THREE departures from Bank at
21:48:

21:48 e "only Monday"
21:48 f "only Wednesday"
21:48 d "not on Monday or Wednesday"

And then of course, there's the question of why the timetable is
different at all on particular days.


[1] If you select "Bank", presumably wanting to see arrival times, you
get a PDF file consisting of one blank page, similarly for Waterloo
arrival times.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

W&C timetable oddities
 

"tim....." wrote
"John Salmon" wrote
"Basil Jet" wrote

If you download the Bank to Waterloo timetable from the TFL site, it has
odd footnotes which serve no obvious purpose.... does anyone know how
this quirk got into the system?

I assume you mean this one:
http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/use...__00004f19.pdf

page cannot be found

(I assume that this was personal timetable that you created?)

No, I don't think so. In fact I've just closed my browser, clicked on the
link again and it has come up again (using Firefox). If you still can't get
it to work, see Richard J's post in a separate sub-thread which shows how to
find it. It's unfortunate that the OP didn't post the link in the first
place!

W&C timetable oddities
 

Richard J. wrote:
Basil Jet wrote on 29
September 2009 18:37:35 ...
If you download the Bank to Waterloo timetable from the TFL site, it
has odd footnotes which serve no obvious purpose.... does anyone
know how this quirk got into the system?

Thanks for the lack of a link!

I didn't post a link because I knew the link would only work for me.

Select Getting Around / Timetables /
Tube and bus, scroll down to "Tube timetable - Tube line", select W&C,
select "Towards Bank", select from the list of stations "Waterloo"
[1], click on "View Waterloo Underground Station timetable" (what
else do they think I want to do?), and hey presto, a PDF timetable
appears. Well, a timetable for first and last trains and "about every
X to Y minutes" for the rest of the day. The footnotes apply to the
first and last trains, thus (for Waterloo to Bank):

a=only Wednesday and Friday, b=not on Wednesday and Friday, c=not on
Monday and Wednesday, d=only Monday and Wednesday

Then you realise that there are pairs of trains departing at the same
time, one with 'a' and the other with 'b', or with 'c' and 'd'.

My theory is that there is a half-minute difference in departure time
in the working timetable on certain days which leads to different
entries, but the times in the public timetable are rounded to whole
minutes. That theory would explain why on the Bank departures
timetable, one pair of early morning departures is listed in b-a
order instead of a-b. But I can't quite see how the theory fits the
THREE departures from Bank at 21:48:

21:48 e "only Monday"
21:48 f "only Wednesday"
21:48 d "not on Monday or Wednesday"

Nice theory... IIRC the W&C is the only line which uses quarter minute times
instead of half minute times.

And then of course, there's the question of why the timetable is
different at all on particular days.

W&C timetable oddities
 

Basil Jet wrote:
Richard J. wrote:

My theory is that there is a half-minute difference in departure time
in the working timetable on certain days which leads to different
entries, but the times in the public timetable are rounded to whole
minutes. That theory would explain why on the Bank departures
timetable, one pair of early morning departures is listed in b-a
order instead of a-b. But I can't quite see how the theory fits the
THREE departures from Bank at 21:48:

21:48 e "only Monday"
21:48 f "only Wednesday"
21:48 d "not on Monday or Wednesday"

Nice theory... IIRC the W&C is the only line which uses quarter
minute times instead of half minute times.

Quarter minute times? You are joking me?!!

The train departing at 21:48.15sec only leaves on Monday, whereas on
Wednesday the train goes at 21:48.30!!! It's so crazy it has to be true.

--
Stevo

W&C timetable oddities
 

Stephen O'Connell wrote:
Quarter minute times? You are joking me?!!

Nope. The journey time on the W&C is so short that regulating to the
quarter minute is about the only sane way of keeping the service going,
it seems.

Cheers,

Barry

W&C timetable oddities
 

Barry Salter wrote on 30 September 2009
10:57:23 ...
Stephen O'Connell wrote:
Quarter minute times? You are joking me?!!

Nope. The journey time on the W&C is so short that regulating to the
quarter minute is about the only sane way of keeping the service going,
it seems.

The joke here is the absurdly casual approach to timekeeping that LU has
on the other lines. As far as I can see, drivers get no help at all to
keep to time apart from being issued with a working timetable (at a
resolution of ½ minute) and using their watch. OK, they get regulated
at certain stations, but that's *after* things have gone adrift. In
Paris, the timings are to the nearest 5 seconds, with a headwall display
at each station or a beep in the cab DLR-fashion to say it's time to go.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

W&C timetable oddities
 

On 30 Sep, 17:20, "Richard J." wrote:
Barry Salter wrote on 30 September 2009
10:57:23 ...

Stephen O'Connell wrote:
Quarter minute times? You are joking me?!!

Nope. The journey time on the W&C is so short that regulating to the
quarter minute is about the only sane way of keeping the service going,
it seems.

The joke here is the absurdly casual approach to timekeeping that LU has
on the other lines. *As far as I can see, drivers get no help at all to
keep to time apart from being issued with a working timetable (at a
resolution of ½ minute) and using their watch. *OK, they get regulated
at certain stations, but that's *after* things have gone adrift. *In
Paris, the timings are to the nearest 5 seconds, with a headwall display
at each station or a beep in the cab DLR-fashion to say it's time to go.

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

It's hard to see why the W & C needs a timetable at all. How far from
the schedule can a driver or train end up? I mean, a train six hours
late is still at a maximum of four minutes from where it ought to be.
As long as they are signalled out of each station at an appropriate
interval, what difference can it make?

W&C timetable oddities
 

MIG wrote on 30 September 2009 17:44:19 ...
On 30 Sep, 17:20, "Richard J." wrote:
Barry Salter wrote on 30 September 2009
10:57:23 ...

Stephen O'Connell wrote:
Quarter minute times? You are joking me?!!
Nope. The journey time on the W&C is so short that regulating to the
quarter minute is about the only sane way of keeping the service going,
it seems.

The joke here is the absurdly casual approach to timekeeping that LU has
on the other lines. As far as I can see, drivers get no help at all to
keep to time apart from being issued with a working timetable (at a
resolution of ½ minute) and using their watch. OK, they get regulated
at certain stations, but that's *after* things have gone adrift. In
Paris, the timings are to the nearest 5 seconds, with a headwall display
at each station or a beep in the cab DLR-fashion to say it's time to go.

It's hard to see why the W & C needs a timetable at all. How far from
the schedule can a driver or train end up? I mean, a train six hours
late is still at a maximum of four minutes from where it ought to be.
As long as they are signalled out of each station at an appropriate
interval, what difference can it make?

It's the timetable that defines the "appropriate interval". Also, it's
useful for the drivers to know how much time they've got between
arriving at Bank or the depot at Waterloo and the start of their next
trip, which might not be on the same train. (The W&C used to do
"stepping back" at one or both ends of the journey -- I'm not sure if
they still do.)
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

W&C timetable oddities
 

MIG wrote:

It's hard to see why the W & C needs a timetable at all. How far from
the schedule can a driver or train end up? I mean, a train six hours
late is still at a maximum of four minutes from where it ought to be.
As long as they are signalled out of each station at an appropriate
interval, what difference can it make?

Quite a lot adrift if you've ever played "The Drain" on SimSig. All it
takes is an incident that would be relatively minor on other lines, and
the entire service falls apart.

Cheers,

Barry

W&C timetable oddities
 

No, I don't think so. In fact I've just closed my browser, clicked on
the link again and it has come up again (using Firefox). If you still
can't get it to work, see Richard J's post in a separate sub-thread
which shows how to find it. It's unfortunate that the OP didn't post
the link in the first place!

Not really, because your link has now expired and is useless to anyone.
Anyone would have to make a new TT if they wanted to see it.

W&C timetable oddities
 

On 30 Sep, 23:38, Barry Salter wrote:
MIG wrote:
It's hard to see why the W & C needs a timetable at all. *How far from
the schedule can a driver or train end up? *I mean, a train six hours
late is still at a maximum of four minutes from where it ought to be.
As long as they are signalled out of each station at an appropriate
interval, what difference can it make?

Quite a lot adrift if you've ever played "The Drain" on SimSig. All it
takes is an incident that would be relatively minor on other lines, and
the entire service falls apart.

Cheers,

Barry

But does a timetable prevent such an incident?

W&C timetable oddities
 

"Commuter" wrote
No, I don't think so. In fact I've just closed my browser, clicked on the
link again and it has come up again (using Firefox). If you still can't
get it to work, see Richard J's post in a separate sub-thread which shows
how to find it. It's unfortunate that the OP didn't post the link in
the first place!

Not really, because your link has now expired and is useless to anyone.
Anyone would have to make a new TT if they wanted to see it.


OK, point taken: I hadn't realised that was what was happening. I still
find it sort of bizarre that a new W&C timetable has to be created every
time someone wants one. Why don't LU or TfL create a permanent one?

W&C timetable oddities
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
. com...

(The W&C used to do "stepping back" at one or both ends of the journey --
I'm not sure if they still do.)

Yep still do at both ends. Only in the peaks though.

The TO who brings the unit in takes the next one out.

And as to Barry's comment;

Yes anything so very small breaks the entire drain quite often. For a line
with 6 units and 2 stations is has a very poor record.

Things have got a little better since they only usually use 1 platform at
Bank in the peaks rather than alternating between the 2 so less points
faults. However we now get held at the signal for the Southbound service to
depart.

But we;
Still have regular signal problems
Still have regular traction problems [1]
Still have the odd train fault which breaks the entire service


[1] - Those not caused by either lightning strikes at Waterloo/Vauxhall or
another fault on the NR side. (Power is still taken from top side for the
drain - a hangon from when it was NSE.

W&C timetable oddities
 

The driver has a Hazchem suit in the cab. Apparently there are some
VERY old puddles of Thames water festering in the tunnels.

W&C timetable oddities
 

Q ..@.. wrote on 02 October 2009 00:50:07 ...
"Richard J." wrote in message
. com...

(The W&C used to do "stepping back" at one or both ends of the journey --
I'm not sure if they still do.)

Yep still do at both ends. Only in the peaks though.

The TO who brings the unit in takes the next one out.

And as to Barry's comment;

Yes anything so very small breaks the entire drain quite often. For a line
with 6 units and 2 stations is has a very poor record.

Things have got a little better since they only usually use 1 platform at
Bank in the peaks rather than alternating between the 2 so less points
faults.

Why should those points fail more often than other intensively-used
junctions on the Tube, e.g. Camden Town, Leytonstone, North Acton?

However we now get held at the signal for the Southbound service to
depart.

- and half of those incidents would be avoided if they used both
platforms. So why don't they? Surely it can't be to save wear and tear
on those NEW points, can it?

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

W&C timetable oddities
 

On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:17:38 GMT
"Richard J." wrote:
- and half of those incidents would be avoided if they used both
platforms. So why don't they? Surely it can't be to save wear and tear
on those NEW points, can it?

The obvious thing to do would be to make both tunnels bi-directional and
effectively have 2 seperate services running - one train goes up and down
1 tunnel, another train goes up and down the other. So if one service
dies you've still got the other one.

B2003

W&C timetable oddities
 

On 2 Oct, 10:29, wrote:
On Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:17:38 GMT

"Richard J." wrote:
- and half of those incidents would be avoided if they used both
platforms. *So why don't they? *Surely it can't be to save wear and tear
on those NEW points, can it?

The obvious thing to do would be to make both tunnels bi-directional and
effectively have 2 seperate services running - one train goes up and down
1 tunnel, another train goes up and down the other. So if one service
dies you've still got the other one.


And this means that only have two trains can run at once rather than
the five you get, during the peak, at the moment. The W&C is a bit too
long to run as independent tunnels.

W&C timetable oddities
 

On 2 Oct, 00:50, "Q" ..@.. wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in message

. com...

(The W&C used to do "stepping back" at one or both ends of the journey -- *
I'm not sure if they still do.)

Yep still do at both ends. Only in the peaks though.

The TO who brings the unit in takes the next one out.

And as to Barry's comment;

Yes anything so very small breaks the entire drain quite often. For a line
with 6 units and 2 stations is has a very poor record.


The W&C has five trains made up of 4 cars (ten x two car units in
total), part of the problem during the peak is that all five trains
are in service, so reliability can suffer when a train is unavailable.

W&C timetable oddities
 

On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 03:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
Andy wrote:
The obvious thing to do would be to make both tunnels bi-directional and
effectively have 2 seperate services running - one train goes up and down
1 tunnel, another train goes up and down the other. So if one service
dies you've still got the other one.


And this means that only have two trains can run at once rather than
the five you get, during the peak, at the moment. The W&C is a bit too
long to run as independent tunnels.

I thought the service was only 2 trains? Oh well, I haven't been on the line
for about 10 years. But even so , having the tunnels bi directional would
mean that if a train died or points failed you could still run some semblence
of a service.

B2003

W&C timetable oddities
 

"Richard J." wrote in message
. com...

- and half of those incidents would be avoided if they used both
platforms. So why don't they? Surely it can't be to save wear and tear
on those NEW points, can it?

Where they actually new or was it the same as some other aspects of the
re-furb ? Given the have only just managed to get the clocks at both enf of
the line in sync I can't think they would of been able to actually fix
anything else...

And I though there was 6 units, with 5 in service & 1 'spare'

W&C timetable oddities
 

On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 10:49:49AM +0000, wrote:

I thought the service was only 2 trains? Oh well, I haven't been on the line
for about 10 years. But even so , having the tunnels bi directional would
mean that if a train died or points failed you could still run some semblence
of a service.

I would have thought that running such a reduced service would lead to
terrible over-crowding so it would be shut down to stop the crowd from
pushing people off the platforms.

--
David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig

I hate baby seals. They get asked to all the best clubs.

W&C timetable oddities
 

On Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:45:52 +0100
David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Oct 02, 2009 at 10:49:49AM +0000, wrote:

I thought the service was only 2 trains? Oh well, I haven't been on the line
for about 10 years. But even so , having the tunnels bi directional would
mean that if a train died or points failed you could still run some semblence
of a service.

I would have thought that running such a reduced service would lead to
terrible over-crowding so it would be shut down to stop the crowd from
pushing people off the platforms.

As opposed to it happening on the northern line instead?

B2003