"Richard J." wrote in
:


Since all the traffic now stops
for the pedestrian phase, it should be safer than before.


Many crossings in London have been changed so that all traffic stops for
pedistrians, and Ocford Circus was like that before the changes.

Given that we don't have kerb-edge doors to protect passengers on the
streets of London, how is that different from any other
light-controlled crossing in London?

I'd suggest two reasons:

Most pedestrian crossings are on the straight. Pedestrians stick to the
pavement (until the green man), traffic sticks to the road. That's fine.

Before the junction at Holborn was remodelled, the crossing over the left
turn lane from Holborn into Kingsway was on the skew. You just had to
learn that you had to stand back a bit when the 521 (then a Bendibus) came
round as there was very, very little clearence between it and the pavement.

The whole point of Oxford Circus is that this demarkation is lacking, and
the pavement around there can be very crowded indeed. Safe 99.9% of the
time? Yes. 99.9999% of the time? Not convinced.

The other issue is that most pedestrains in London now ignore red/green men
and cross if it seems to be safe to do so. The phasing often has so much
time on red that you can watch the red man appear, amble up to and across a
dual carriageway and still get to the other side before you get run over
(well, I havn't been flattened yet ....)

This is fine if you know the way the phasing works at a particular
junction. What is also happening increasing often is that people who
aren't paying sufficent attention see the red man, all the lights on red
and step into the road pretty much as the traffic starts moving....

Now, the diagonal at Oxford Circus is actually quite a long way. I assume
the phasing allows plenty of time for the slowest pedestrian to cross the
diagonal which is going to leave an awuful lot of time on red when people
are going to be tempted to cross. I really wouldn't want to get trapped in
the middle with traffic all around me, yet that is exactly what was close
to happening to people on Saturday.

I'm sure there is an education issue here - for both pedestrians and
drivers - but combine overcrowed pavements with the traffic levels at
Oxford Circus which means that the junction won't always clear for the
green phase - and the odd cyclist on his mobile who doesn't stop for
anybody (I saw one in Oxford Street this evening) and I struggle to see how
it can be "safe".

David Jackman pleasereplytogroup wrote

Now, the diagonal at Oxford Circus is actually quite a long way. I
assume
the phasing allows plenty of time for the slowest pedestrian to cross
the
diagonal which is going to leave an awuful lot of time on red when
people
are going to be tempted to cross. I really wouldn't want to get
trapped in
the middle with traffic all around me, yet that is exactly what was
close
to happening to people on Saturday.

In the US there can be a countdown number as well so you can see
exactly how long you have. Tfl is going to try this in London.

--
Mike D

In message 01ca5f0f$ef6fa520$LocalHost@default, at 18:41:10 on Fri, 6
Nov 2009, Michael R N Dolbear remarked:
In the US there can be a countdown number as well so you can see
exactly how long you have.

You get quite a good selection of pictures from all over the world at:

http://images.google.co.uk/images?&q...trian+crossing

Tfl is going to try this in London.

--
Roland Perry

"Ian F." wrote in
:

As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent
on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over
four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create.

I'm old enough to remember when pedestrian phases at traffic lights were
first introduced in Edinburgh, where I then lived. The first one was at the
intersection of the Bridges and the High Street, and instead of red and
green men there was a white-on-black 'CROSS NOW' light (and merely the
absence of it to indicate that you shouldn't).

That one and all subsequent ones for some time gave the pedestrians a
dedicated phase, where they could cross diagonally if they wished - though
without the natty stripes on the road.

Some considerable time later, they started introducing ones where you
couldn't cross diagonally and there was a bit of publicity (and grumbling)
about the fact that you could not rely on being able to cross in any
direction. I don't recall anyone being squashed, but there was less
traffic about in those days.

To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have
the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the
road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to
it, but I've already seen people:
- look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a
pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring
the new-style light, and
- even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see
the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed
directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic.

The second occurrence was after dark, on a road that went uphill south to
north, so the green light was at about the right height for an old-style
one.

Peter

--
| Peter Campbell Smith | Epsom | UK |

On 4 Nov, 12:18, Peter Campbell Smith wrote:
"Ian F." wrote :

As a Balham resident, I'm still reeling that allegedly £1m was spent
on this crossing when we have had one outside Balham station for over
four years! It is said to have cost £100k to create.

I'm old enough to remember when pedestrian phases at traffic lights were
first introduced in Edinburgh, where I then lived. The first one was at the
intersection of the Bridges and the High Street, and instead of red and
green men there was a white-on-black 'CROSS NOW' light (and merely the
absence of it to indicate that you shouldn't).

That one and all subsequent ones for some time gave the pedestrians a
dedicated phase, where they could cross diagonally if they wished - though
without the natty stripes on the road.

Some considerable time later, they started introducing ones where you
couldn't cross diagonally and there was a bit of publicity (and grumbling)
about the fact that you could not rely on being able to cross in any
direction. *I don't recall anyone being squashed, but there was less
traffic about in those days.

To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have
the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the
road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. *I suppose we'll get used to
it, but I've already seen people:
- look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a
pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring
the new-style light, and
- even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see
the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed
directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic.

The second occurrence was after dark, on a road that went uphill south to
north, so the green light was at about the right height for an old-style
one.

Peter

Unless it's changed recently, the junction of Poultry/Cheapside and
King Street/Queen Street is rather special.

As well as the various vehicle and pedestrian phases, there's rather
long period every phase when all the traffic lights and all the
pedestrian lights are red, ie nothing and no one can move.

I've never understood the reason for that.

In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed,
4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked:
To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have
the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the
road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to
it, but I've already seen people:
- look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a
pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring
the new-style light, and
- even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see
the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed
directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic.

These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned
immediately.

If for no other reason than the red/green men are obscured as soon as
there is more than a couple of people waiting to cross.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed, 4
Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked:
To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have
the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the
road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get used to
it, but I've already seen people:
- look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a
pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring
the new-style light, and
- even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see
the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed
directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic.

These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned
immediately.

If for no other reason than the red/green men are obscured as soon as
there is more than a couple of people waiting to cross.
--
Roland Perry

Hear, hear. They are totally stupid.

MaxB

On 4 Nov, 13:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed,
4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked:

To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings have
the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of the
road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. *I suppose we'll get used to
it, but I've already seen people:
- look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a
pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring
the new-style light, and
- even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see
the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed
directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic.

These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned
immediately.

If for no other reason than the red/green men are obscured as soon as
there is more than a couple of people waiting to cross.
--
Roland Perry

Oh god yes, it won't be a moment too soon when they are banned. They
seem to be universally despised, for good reason.

Another problem with many of them is that they are set a long way back
into the pavement and can't be seen at all from the position one
stands in waiting to cross the road. A good example is Theobalds Road
in London where you have to stand back almost against the wall,
blocking the pavement, to be able to see the lights.

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:18:22 on Wed,
4 Nov 2009, Peter Campbell Smith remarked:
To change the subject slightly, I see that (many? all?) new crossings
have
the red and green man (person?) mounted at waist height at the side of
the
road one is waiting at, rather than opposite. I suppose we'll get
used to
it, but I've already seen people:
- look across the road, see no light and assume that there isn't a
pedestrian phase, especially where there are others waiting and obscuring
the new-style light, and
- even more worryingly, look across the road (say south to north) and see
the green man for the pedestrians crossing east to west, which is aimed
directly south, and plunge across the road into the traffic.

These new crossings are a complete disaster, and should be banned
immediately.

Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I
did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but
couldn't find a good explanation.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In message , at
17:44:06 on Wed, 4 Nov 2009, Arthur Figgis
remarked:
Is there a theoretical reason why they are supposed to be "better"? I
did try Googling when one of the blasted things arrived near here, but
couldn't find a good explanation.

Yes, to look at the red/green men, you have to face the oncoming
traffic. Supposedly you are therefore less likely to run across the road
having failed to notice that there *is* and oncoming traffic (regardless
of the state of the men).

One of the many flaws is that if you are consciously wanting to look for
the red/green men, you probably also aren't likely to be taking a punt
on running across the road regardless of the state of the lights.

For a couple of generations we've been trained, cajoled and exhorted to
look for the red/green men across the road, high up. We simply don't
expect to find them on our side of the road, at knee height. Sideways.
--
Roland Perry