When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

When it's to zone 9.

Woke up at a friend's place in Wallington, near Croydon and far from the
Pays du PAYG. Wanted to go home to god's own Finsbury Park, then visit a
convalescing friend in Watford and then come home again. So, bought a Z1-9
travelcard.

I happily used to the ticket to take the Southern to Victoria, the Vic to
FP and back to Euston, and London Midland to Watford Junction - where the
ticket machine ate my travelcard. I asked a member of staff, who i think
was some sort of ticket inspector, and he asserted that this was right and
proper - apparently outside Z6, a travelcard is good for one trip inward
and one out. So it is not, as the name might suggest to the naive, a
travelcard.

I had a look through this charming booklet:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-junction.pdf

And there's no mention of this. It does suggest you read this:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

Which merrily chortles:

Travel as much as you like in one day using a Day Travelcard

And doesn't go on to qualify that with regards to Watford.

So, what gives? Where's the rule that says Watford gets to eat my ticket?
Where else am i at risk from surprise cartivory?

I assume what's happening is that a Z1-9 travelcard is actually a return
from BZ9 to Z1-6, much as you might buy a return from Chelmsford to Z1-6,
and as such, is only valid for a trip in from Z9 followed by a trip out,
as the fellow i spoke to indicated. In which case, it's a perfectly
consistent and legit product, but *is not a bloody travelcard*.

I imagine there have been threads about this here before, and i probably
should have paid attention. But i didn't. So, what are my chances of
getting Trading Standards to shut down the Z1-9 TC scam?

tom

--
Glass of water, glass of orange juice, cup of coffee, a spell on the
toilet (Guinness hangovers only), back to bed for a good cry. Fried
breakfast later. -- susumu, on curing hangovers

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In article i,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

When it's to zone 9.

Woke up at a friend's place in Wallington, near Croydon and far
from the Pays du PAYG. Wanted to go home to god's own Finsbury
Park, then visit a convalescing friend in Watford and then come
home again. So, bought a Z1-9 travelcard.

I happily used to the ticket to take the Southern to Victoria, the
Vic to FP and back to Euston, and London Midland to Watford
Junction - where the ticket machine ate my travelcard. I asked a
member of staff, who i think was some sort of ticket inspector, and
he asserted that this was right and proper - apparently outside Z6,
a travelcard is good for one trip inward and one out. So it is not,
as the name might suggest to the naive, a travelcard.

I had a look through this charming booklet:


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-tickets-Zone
s-7-9-plus-watford-junction.pdf

And there's no mention of this. It does suggest you read this:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf

Which merrily chortles:

Travel as much as you like in one day using a Day Travelcard

And doesn't go on to qualify that with regards to Watford.

So, what gives? Where's the rule that says Watford gets to eat my
ticket? Where else am i at risk from surprise cartivory?

I assume what's happening is that a Z1-9 travelcard is actually a
return from BZ9 to Z1-6, much as you might buy a return from
Chelmsford to Z1-6, and as such, is only valid for a trip in from
Z9 followed by a trip out, as the fellow i spoke to indicated. In
which case, it's a perfectly consistent and legit product, but *is
not a bloody travelcard*.

I imagine there have been threads about this here before, and i
probably should have paid attention. But i didn't. So, what are my
chances of getting Trading Standards to shut down the Z1-9 TC scam?

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just Chesham
and Amersham.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

wrote in message
...

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just Chesham
and Amersham.

Correct, nearly. Watford Junction is just outside Zone 8, because in that
area there is no Zone 9.

Paul S

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Paul Scott wrote:

wrote in message
...

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just Chesham
and Amersham.

Correct, nearly. Watford Junction is just outside Zone 8, because in that
area there is no Zone 9.

Huh. So should i actually have been excessed or something?

The chap at Wallington seemed to think a Z1-9 TC was the thing i wanted; i
suppose it's no great surprise that he wasn't immediately familiar with
the ins and outs of the rules.

tom

--
This sig kills fascists.

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009 22:08:28 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Huh. So should i actually have been excessed or something?

PFed, I guess, if a 1-9 ODTC is indeed what you had., as such a thing
isn't valid to Watford Junction.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote in message
...

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just
Chesham and Amersham.

Correct, nearly. Watford Junction is just outside Zone 8, because
in that area there is no Zone 9.

So the OP's ticket was not valid for a journey to Watford Junction then?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

(Neil Williams) wrote in
:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

Neil


But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the zones,
and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could issue Z1-9
either.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-and-tickets-
Zones-7-9-plus-watford-junction.pdf does quote prices for a "Day Travelcard
Z1-9 plus Watford Junction" but as it's £ 18.00 peak/£ 13.50 off-peak a
Boundary Z6-Watford Junction is often a better option anyway.

David

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him a
Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be valid
for a return trip to the zones if so?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In article . 145,
pleasereplytogroup (David Jackman) wrote:

(Neil Williams) wrote in
:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the
zones, and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations
could issue Z1-9 either.


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-tickets-Zone
s-7-9-plus-watford-junction.pdf does quote prices for a "Day
Travelcard Z1-9 plus Watford Junction" but as it's £ 18.00 peak/£
13.50 off-peak a Boundary Z6-Watford Junction is often a better
option anyway.

Assuming the ticket office in question did what they should have done, of
course.


--
Colin Rosenstiel

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

Neil Williams wrote:
PFed, I guess, if a 1-9 ODTC is indeed what you had., as such a thing
isn't valid to Watford Junction.

But the gate should have just said 'Seek assistance' in that case? It
wouldn't have eaten the ticket.

Theo

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On 09 Nov 2009 00:38:30 +0000 (GMT), Theo Markettos
wrote:

But the gate should have just said 'Seek assistance' in that case? It
wouldn't have eaten the ticket.

True...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

David Jackman wrote:

But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the zones,
and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could issue Z1-9
either.

The extremities of the Metropolitan Line are a special case when it
comes to the "out-boundary" rule, in that National Rail ticket offices
*can* issue a Travelcard for them (Amersham to All Zones being the usual
scenario) *and* they don't turn into a pumpkin when you reach Amersham.

It also appears that the rules regarding other out-boundary Travelcards
have now been updated in "The Manual" and it now explicitly states that,
whilst not valid for another journey back to/from London after you
return to the origin point, they *do* retain the Travelcard validity
within Zones 1 to 6.

Cheers,

Barry

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote in message
...

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9? I thought it comprised just
Chesham and Amersham.

Correct, nearly. Watford Junction is just outside Zone 8, because
in that area there is no Zone 9.

So the OP's ticket was not valid for a journey to Watford Junction then?

AIUI from many previous discussions, you can apparently buy a normal
outboundary travelcard from Watford Junction TO zones 1-6, (not sure on
zones 1-9), but the leg from Watford Junction to 'the zones', although
short, is just like the leg from say Cambridge to the zones. So with an out
boundary travelcard from WJ you'd have your normal one jouney in and one
return, and if you started from within the zones with a normal Z1-6
travelcard you'd need an extension from BZ6 to WJ.

No idea if there even is such a thing as an extension from BZ8 - Watford
Junction though....

By the way - for those still wondering, have a look at the text in the
orange box next to WJ on the standard tube map - you can see why people
might expect it to be in Zone 9 though...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-tube-map.pdf

Paul S

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him a
Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be valid
for a return trip to the zones if so?

I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be valid after
the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are probabaly aware, the
outward part of a two part ticket is not valid without the return...

Paul S

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him a
Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be valid
for a return trip to the zones if so?

I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be valid
after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are probabaly
aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid without the
return...


In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are no longer
valid on the NR part of the route once they have been used to return to the
origin. As the barriers will have normally eaten it, using the zonal
validity again in the same day will require the user to avoid the barriers.

Paul S

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Neil Williams wrote:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

I've checked by bank statement, and i paid 13.80 for the thing, at
Wallington, on a late monday morning IIRC. The only thing i can see in the
booklet is the off-peak Z1-9TC+WJ ticket, which is 13.50, so i think
you're right, although i don't know where the 30p comes from.

And i note there's still nothing in the TfL fares booklet which indicates
that that ticket will be eaten at WJ.

tom

--
History is about battles, great men, gory executions and wigs. That is
all. -- The Richelieu Association

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Barry Salter wrote:

David Jackman wrote:

But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the zones,
and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could issue Z1-9
either.

The extremities of the Metropolitan Line are a special case when it comes to
the "out-boundary" rule, in that National Rail ticket offices *can* issue a
Travelcard for them (Amersham to All Zones being the usual scenario) *and*
they don't turn into a pumpkin when you reach Amersham.

'Turn into a pumpkin' = 'get eaten'? Mind you, the ticket i had was bright
orange in parts, so perhaps it was already part pumpkin? :)

It also appears that the rules regarding other out-boundary Travelcards
have now been updated in "The Manual" and it now explicitly states that,
whilst not valid for another journey back to/from London after you
return to the origin point, they *do* retain the Travelcard validity
within Zones 1 to 6.

Ah, so if that's what i had, it should have eaten the ticket and spat out
a Z1-6 TC? And does 'origin point' mean something unexpected, as i was
nowhere near my origin!

I suppose i should have bought (or the guy should have sold me) a Z1-6 TC
and a pair of off-peak singles from Z6 to WJ - 7.50 + 2*1.10 = 9.70. I
could perhaps even have done the extension on pre-pay.

tom

--
History is about battles, great men, gory executions and wigs. That is
all. -- The Richelieu Association

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

"Paul Scott" wrote
"Paul Scott" wrote
wrote

Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have sold him
a
Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be
valid
for a return trip to the zones if so?

I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be valid
after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are probabaly
aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid without the
return...


In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are no
longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been used to
return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally eaten it, using
the zonal validity again in the same day will require the user to avoid
the barriers.

Did you mean "the outboundary part of the route" rather than "the NR part of
the route", or am I still misunderstanding?

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

John Salmon wrote:
"Paul Scott" wrote
"Paul Scott" wrote
wrote

Would Croydon (or wherever, I see he wasn't too specific) have
sold him a
Watford Junction outboundary Travelcard, though? And wouldn't it be
valid
for a return trip to the zones if so?

I expect they could if asked, but the ticket would still not be
valid after the first trip to Watford Jn. By analogy, as you are
probabaly aware, the outward part of a two part ticket is not valid
without the return...


In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are no
longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been used to
return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally eaten it,
using the zonal validity again in the same day will require the user
to avoid the barriers.

Did you mean "the outboundary part of the route" rather than "the NR
part of the route", or am I still misunderstanding?

Yes - sorry about that.

Paul

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

Barry Salter wrote:
David Jackman wrote:

But outboundary travelcards should never be issued from within the
zones, and I wasn't previously aware that National Rail stations could
issue Z1-9 either.

The extremities of the Metropolitan Line are a special case when it
comes to the "out-boundary" rule, in that National Rail ticket offices
*can* issue a Travelcard for them (Amersham to All Zones being the usual
scenario) *and* they don't turn into a pumpkin when you reach Amersham.

Theoretically, though when I've tried this on a couple of occasions
(admittedly some time ago now) the responses were along the lines of
"That's a underground station and we are a railway station and we don't
sell tickets from underground stations, duh" or "Hmm, yes I see what you
are trying to do, and you look like you've probably read something in
Trainspotters' Fortnightly which says this is allowed, but the computer
won't seem to let me sell that. Try an Underground station. 'cept there
aren't none 'cos this is Croydon/Sutton".

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 11:50:49 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Nov 2009, Neil Williams wrote:

On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:31:58 -0600,
wrote:

Isn't Watford Junction outside Zone 9?

It is. What I think the OP actually bought is a Watford Junction
outboundary Travelcard, which should indeed be eaten at the end.

I've checked by bank statement, and i paid 13.80 for the thing, at
Wallington, on a late monday morning IIRC. The only thing i can see in the
booklet is the off-peak Z1-9TC+WJ ticket, which is 13.50, so i think
you're right, although i don't know where the 30p comes from.

And i note there's still nothing in the TfL fares booklet which indicates
that that ticket will be eaten at WJ.

isn't there some easement allowing use of Travelcards on TFL buses
serving Watford which means the card should not be swallowed?

And, should not the OP have been sold a ODTC with extension BZ6 to
Watford?
--
Peter Lawrence

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are
no longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been
used to return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally
eaten it, using the zonal validity again in the same day will
require the user to avoid the barriers.

That isn't very different from the new situation with London Terminals
tickets at King's Cross platforms 9-11. The tickets are eaten if put in
the barrier but staff will open a gate for you if you ask.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In message ,
writes
That isn't very different from the new situation with London Terminals
tickets at King's Cross platforms 9-11. The tickets are eaten if put in
the barrier but staff will open a gate for you if you ask.

Very much the same thing on a ticket from Luton to "London Thameslink"
which gets eaten at barriers at St.Pancras (upper level) if you are
silly enough to give it your ticket to chomp, even though the ticket is
valid onwards e.g. to London Bridge. Again if you can find a manned
barrier you can get through.


--
Clive Page

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In article ,
() wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

In the light of Barry's info, I'd clarify that by saying they are
no longer valid on the NR part of the route once they have been
used to return to the origin. As the barriers will have normally
eaten it, using the zonal validity again in the same day will
require the user to avoid the barriers.

That isn't very different from the new situation with London
Terminals tickets at King's Cross platforms 9-11. The tickets are
eaten if put in the barrier but staff will open a gate for you if
you ask.

At some point since I wrote this they seem to have changed the barriers at
King's Cross. They now return London Terminals tickets, I was told by a
staff member when I asked to retain my ticket by him opening the gate as I
have since last year. When I put my ticket in this morning, it was indeed
returned to me.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

When is a travelcard not a travelcard?
 

In message ,
writes
At some point since I wrote this they seem to have changed the barriers at
King's Cross. They now return London Terminals tickets, I was told by a
staff member when I asked to retain my ticket by him opening the gate as I
have since last year. When I put my ticket in this morning, it was indeed
returned to me.

There is a similar, but worse situation at St.Pancras if you arrive from
some point further north with a ticket to "London Thameslink" - this is
valid as far as London Bridge or Elephant and Castle. The barriers at
St.Pancras Lower Level return your ticket so you can continue your
journey (even though when the Thameslink route through Farringdon is
open you'd be unlikely to want to exit there if continuing, unless
making a break of journey), whereas those at St.Pancras Upper Level eat
such tickets (even though you might well want to switch to a train from
the lower level to continue your journey). Joined-up thinking - not.


--
Clive Page