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Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Hi everyone.
This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up. Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the excess portion before you start your journey. For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than Croydon. You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office. What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? Since AIUI point-to-point seasons won't be available under Oyster next year, and will continue to be only issued on paper tickets, we won't even have the luxury of using those newfangled OEP things. Instead the choice seems to be between either 1) buying a full-price peak-hour anytime return for the excess portion before starting the journey even though that's a more expensive fare, 2) travelling the first section using the season, getting out of the train at West Croydon, going to the ticket office there, using your season to let you out of the barriers if theyi're in use, touching in with Oyster, returning to the platform, waiting for the next train, and continuing to Sutton, or 3) leaving the season at home and just using Oyster PAYG all the way even though that means paying twice for the bit covered by the season. Those people moaining about OEPs just don't know how lucky they really are... |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On 7 Dec, 01:30, "solar penguin" wrote:
Hi everyone. This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up. Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the excess portion before you start your journey. For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than Croydon. *You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office. What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? *Since AIUI point-to-point seasons won't be available under Oyster next year, and will continue to be only issued on paper tickets, we won't even have the luxury of using those newfangled OEP things. *Instead the choice seems to be between either 1) buying a full-price peak-hour anytime return for the excess portion before starting the journey even though that's a more expensive fare, 2) travelling the first section using the season, getting out of the train at West Croydon, going to the ticket office there, using your season to let you out of the barriers if theyi're in use, touching in with Oyster, returning to the platform, waiting for the next train, and continuing to Sutton, or 3) leaving the season at home and just using Oyster PAYG all the way even though that means paying twice for the bit covered by the season. Those people moaining about OEPs just don't know how lucky they really are... That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a paper travelcard. It's not a problem. Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly acceptable. Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions behind Oyster. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
MIG wrote: That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a paper travelcard. Really? Interesting. Thanks. As I hardly ever use LU unless I have to, and definitely haven't needed any kind of Travelcard season (paper or otherwise) for nearly 20 years, I didn't know that. I'm surprised they didn't sort out all the problems and get the system to work properly on LU _before_ extending it to even more lines where those problems will become more serious. It's not a problem. Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly acceptable. Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions behind Oyster. I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking. If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU. OTOH If someone could produce a sort of point-to-point equivalent of Oyster, I'd probably welcome it with open arms. (Hmmm... Isn't that more or less what SWT were trying to do before those *******s at TfL stopped them and forced them to use Oyster instead?) |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
"solar penguin" wrote in message ... I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking. If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU. The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all non-seasons became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons within the zones would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010. I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently though. Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd be little point in not making them valid zonally. Paul S |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
"solar penguin" wrote in message ... Hi everyone. This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up. Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the excess portion before you start your journey. For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than Croydon. You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office. What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? They haven't said that, they've said offpeak day return (CDR) paper tickets will not be available for travel within the zones. They haven't said there will be 'no paper tickets at all'. They'll still be needed to travel outside London, and I'm expecting when the NR fares changes are published they'll be selling paper offpeak travelcards in lieu of CDRs. The price is only marginally higher normally. Paul S |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 7, 8:13*am, MIG wrote:
On 7 Dec, 01:30, "solar penguin" wrote: Hi everyone. This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up. Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the excess portion before you start your journey. For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than Croydon. *You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office. What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? *Since AIUI point-to-point seasons won't be available under Oyster next year, and will continue to be only issued on paper tickets, we won't even have the luxury of using those newfangled OEP things. *Instead the choice seems to be between either 1) buying a full-price peak-hour anytime return for the excess portion before starting the journey even though that's a more expensive fare, 2) travelling the first section using the season, getting out of the train at West Croydon, going to the ticket office there, using your season to let you out of the barriers if theyi're in use, touching in with Oyster, returning to the platform, waiting for the next train, and continuing to Sutton, or 3) leaving the season at home and just using Oyster PAYG all the way even though that means paying twice for the bit covered by the season. Those people moaining about OEPs just don't know how lucky they really are... That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a paper travelcard. It's not a problem. Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly acceptable. Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions behind Oyster. Haha. The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't sold. On NR, there is a reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets are sold, so it is a problem. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 7, 9:37*am, "solar penguin"
wrote: MIG wrote: That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a paper travelcard. Really? *Interesting. *Thanks. *As I hardly ever use LU unless I have to, and definitely haven't needed any kind of Travelcard season (paper or otherwise) for nearly 20 years, I didn't know that. I'm surprised they didn't sort out all the problems and get the system to work properly on LU _before_ extending it to even more lines where those problems will become more serious. It's not a problem. Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly acceptable. Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions behind Oyster. I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. *I think it's because I'm sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking. If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow against proper point-to-point seasons. *I'm worried they might even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU. Almost certainly the plan - and for my money it can't come a moment too soon. The straightforward, convenient LU way of doing it is far more sensible than the arcane, point-to-point NR way of doing it. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On 7 Dec, 11:34, John B wrote:
On Dec 7, 8:13*am, MIG wrote: On 7 Dec, 01:30, "solar penguin" wrote: Hi everyone. This is probably a very obvious question that's been dealt with dozens of times already, but Google doesn't seem to be turning anything up. Currently, if you own a paper point-to-point season ticket, and want to extend an off-peak return journey beyond its furthest point, you can buy, from your local station, an off-peak cheap day return for the excess portion before you start your journey. For eaxmple, say you had a season ticket between Gipsy Hill and Croydon because that's where you live and/or work, but you want to visit Sutton one weekend to do your shopping, because that's less of a dump than Croydon. *You can buy an an off-peak cheap day return from Croydon to Sutton at the Gipsy Hill ticket office. What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? *Since AIUI point-to-point seasons won't be available under Oyster next year, and will continue to be only issued on paper tickets, we won't even have the luxury of using those newfangled OEP things. *Instead the choice seems to be between either 1) buying a full-price peak-hour anytime return for the excess portion before starting the journey even though that's a more expensive fare, 2) travelling the first section using the season, getting out of the train at West Croydon, going to the ticket office there, using your season to let you out of the barriers if theyi're in use, touching in with Oyster, returning to the platform, waiting for the next train, and continuing to Sutton, or 3) leaving the season at home and just using Oyster PAYG all the way even though that means paying twice for the bit covered by the season.. Those people moaining about OEPs just don't know how lucky they really are... That's exactly the situation now when extending a journey on LU with a paper travelcard. It's not a problem. Having to get off the train to touch in and out is perfectly acceptable. Now, never again question the benefits of and benevolent intentions behind Oyster. Haha. The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't sold. On NR, there is a reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets are sold, so it is a problem. So people with paper travelcards bought from NR don't use LU? Yes, I know there are various unreliable and inconvenient ways of making sure that you always have your travelcard on Oyster, but there are still cases where you can't. For example, outboundary 1 - 6 travelcard and wanting to travel on the Metropolitan beyond zone 6 at the Oyster rate. Yes, it's happened to me. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Paul Scott wrote:
"solar penguin" wrote in message ... What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? They haven't said that, they've said offpeak day return (CDR) paper tickets will not be available for travel within the zones. They haven't said there will be 'no paper tickets at all'. They'll still be needed to travel outside London, and I'm expecting when the NR fares changes are published they'll be selling paper offpeak travelcards in lieu of CDRs. The price is only marginally higher normally. Update today, as far as I can see the new NR fares are now uploaded for dates beyond Jan 2nd. Using as an example Surbiton - Waterloo[NR], the options seem to be: Anytime SIngle £5.00 Anytime Day return £9.80 Anytime Travelcard £14.80 Offpeak Travelcard £7.50 - same as daily Oyster PAYG cap The current Offpeak day return (CDR ) was £6.50 (but has disappeared AFAICT). Any other interpretations out there? Paul S |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Paul Scott wrote: If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU. The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all non-seasons became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons within the zones would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010. I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently though. Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd be little point in not making them valid zonally. That's depressing news. Thanks for the warning. Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc. validity that we don't need. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
solar penguin wrote:
Paul Scott wrote: The TOCs already announced, (some time prior to 2008 when all non-seasons became zonally priced), that all point to point seasons within the zones would be changed to zonal pricing from Jan 2010. I don't think anything more has been announced about that recently though. Seasons could still show origin and destination, but there'd be little point in not making them valid zonally. That's depressing news. Thanks for the warning. Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc. validity that we don't need. As I've just posted elsewhere in the thread, the new prices appear to have been loaded, so it ought to be possible to use the National Rail enquires season ticket calculator to test what the new prices are, and compare with your existing season? http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/en/pj/sts Paul S |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
John B wrote: On Dec 7, 9:37 am, "solar penguin" wrote: If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU. Almost certainly the plan - and for my money it can't come a moment too soon. The straightforward, convenient LU way of doing it is far more sensible than the arcane, point-to-point NR way of doing it. I'm curious. Why do you think zonal fares are "straightforward, convenient" and "sensible"? IMHO they're an ungainly compromise between a proper flat-fare system and a proper route based system, either of which in themselves could be "straightforward, convenient" and "sensible". But like all such compromises, the zonal system manages to combine the worst aspects of both and the best of neither. Here's a simple example. Go one stop northbound from Kennington on either of the branches of the Northern line. Common sense says that these similar journeys ought to cost the same. Instead one costs much more than the other because it just happens to take you across a random, imaginary line on a map, while the other doesn't! Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport, etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it becomes even less sensible. (Well, I suppose that might be sensible, convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many different modes of transport. But for the rest of us, it just plain isn't.) |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On 7 Dec, 19:48, "solar penguin" wrote:
Out of curiosity, will these be zonal NR-only season tickets? Or will there only be Travelcards, forcing us to pay for tube/DLR etc. validity that we don't need. * Neither - It'll be the same as we already have for singles/returns in the zones - same tickets, same point-to-point validities, but uniform pricing based on the zones passed through. So a Gipsy Hill-Croydon season will cost the same Z3-5 rate as a Barnes-Twickenham season. This will be less than the Travelcard rate, but I can't find 2010 pricing anywhere. In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has and I'm fairly certain is valid via both East and West Croydon and, so there's very little reason for them not to switch to one. U |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Paul Corfield wrote: On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:37:44 -0000, "solar penguin" wrote: I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking. You'll have to explain your thinking here. If there is a zonal, ride at will, multi modal ticket available I would always purchase it. Really? Why? I wouldn't unless it that ticket just happened to be the best option for my specific journey. My thinking is that if there's a simple, no-frills product that gives exactly what I want, then I'm the sort of person who will always prefer that instead of fancy, all-singing, all-dancing products whose extra features I'll probably never use enough to justify getting them. In short, I just hate buying stuff that I'm got going to use fully. It feels wrong and wasteful And there's nothing special or magical about train tickets that makes them an exception to this rule. It just gives so much more choice over travel options with little need to be concerned about where you are going once you've worked out the zones you want. Still I've buying zonally based tickets (all over the world) for about 30 years or so so I suppose I'm used to them. I don't think I'll ever get used to them. In fact, I'd actually prefer the option of being able to choose to buy special cheap-rate tickets that give even less choice than at present, for those times when they're the best option for my journey. Take for example, a return ticket between Gipsy Hill and "London Terminals". At the moment tickets are valid to and from any of half-a-dozen terminals, by almost any possible route. But if I know in advance I'm going to London Bridge and returning from there, it would be great to get a London Bridge only ticket, which cheaper because I don't have to pay for the availability at Victoria, Waterloo, etc. I would also caution that you are mixing ticket products with ticket media. Oyster is simply the Smartcard which in turn is just a very clever, higher capacity magnetic ticket. Travelcards existed a long time before Oyster was even conceived. True, but before it was always possible to ignore them in favour of better options. They were just a useless irrelevance, with the obvious exception of the One Day Travelcard of course, which is useful on those rare special occasions when I do need to make complex journeys. The fact that Travelcards are the _only_ form of season on Oyster means that the other, potentially better types of season are becoming ignored, neglected, etc. by the powers that be. The idea of Pay as you Go (or Stored Value) was also conceived in the days of magnetic ticketing. Hong Kong and Singapore started off on magnetically based SVT systems. I can sort of conceive why someone may be dubious about SVT replacing a "ride at will" ticket but I struggle with why anyone would be bothered by having a Travelcard in place of a point to point season. I'm bothered because when I'm normally only travelling between Gipsy Hill and West Croydon then I only need a ticket between a ticket between Gipsy Hill and West Croydon, and no more. I don't see why I should be forced into paying extra for a ticket that's also valid between on the tube Hampstead and Edgware, or the DLR between Canning Town and Woolwich, or etc. etc. on occasions when I don't need any of that. (Actually that's a poor example because there's not a simple Gipsy Hill to West Croydon ticket. You have to get one to "Croydon Stations", which is stupid because the connection at Norwood Junction is so poor that anyone travelling to somewehere in the East Croydon area will usually be quicker going to West Croydon and walking!) OTOH on those isolated occasions when I actually need to make to make a more complicated journey, then I'll happily buy a more complicated ticket like a One Day Travelcard, or whatever the most appropriate ticket for that specific journey is. on LUL travelcard effectively replaced a myriad of point to point season options back in the 1980s - I don't recall there being massive disagreement with that concept. Maybe there should've been. It would've helped avoid the current mess. If Oyster becomes standard on National Rail, it could be a serious blow against proper point-to-point seasons. I'm worried they might even be abolished on NR to force everyone into paying extra for Travelcards, just like has already happened on LU. Oyster has been accepted on NR for season ticket purposes (Travelcards) for years and has not written anything off in terms of point to point seasons. For as long as point to points are largely TOC specific products then they'll survive because the TOCs want the money in their bank accounts and not going through some shared pot like Travelcard. Let's hope so. OTOH If someone could produce a sort of point-to-point equivalent of Oyster, I'd probably welcome it with open arms. (Hmmm... Isn't that more or less what SWT were trying to do before those *******s at TfL stopped them and forced them to use Oyster instead?) I cannot for the life of me see why point to point seasons could not be placed on the Oyster ticket medium. Again, let's hope so. I know much less about ITSO but haven't SWT been trialling ITSO based point to point seasons? That's probably what I was thinking of above. I would have thought it would be a pre-requisite of ITSO adoption that the basic product range offered by all TOCs could be supported via ITSO "products" that can be loaded to ITSO compliant cards via ITSO compatible retailing / validation equipment. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Mr Thant wrote: In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has Thanks. I didn't know that. You mean they've been charging me for journeys all the way to Sutton even when I've only been going as far as West Croydon! The sneaky *******s! and I'm fairly certain is valid via both East and West Croydon and, so there's very little reason for them not to switch to one. Might also be valid via Balham/Mitcham as well. If so, I'd probably use that enough to justify getting one. Silly question, would it still open the barriers at West Croydon? |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 7, 8:10*pm, "solar penguin"
wrote: Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport, etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it becomes even less sensible. *(Well, I suppose that might be sensible, convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many different modes of transport. *But for the rest of us, it just plain isn't.) But who doesn't? I mean, who doesn't go out at weekends or evenings, who doesn't vary their route to work based on whether there are delays and if so on what mode, whether it's raining and how tired you are (for nearer-to-home-but-less-convenient-journey versus longer-walk- direct-journey versus bus), on whether they're in their normal office or a site somewhere, on whether they've stayed the night at home or at a friend's or partner's place, on a million other factors...? Across London (and this is true even in Tube-less SE London), there are a huge number of alternative transport modes, be they bus, train or Tube, that you'll certainly want to use when things go a bit wrong, which is fairly often, and that you'll often want to use even when they don't. If LU sold point-to-point seasons and I'd bought one when I last renewed, I'd've had to get it refunded twice - once for a move of house and once for a move of my company's offices, both of which were forced on me by external factors rather than my whim. And that's even before any of the circumstances mentioned above. (as it happens, one possible route to work for me from my current home to my current work - and the one I'd expected when moving to take most often - would be covered by a slightly-cheaper-than-Travelcard NR point-to-point season. If I'd decided to go with that, then I'd be utterly shafted at the moment thanks to the superb work of FCC and its drivers. And I'd have to pay a quid every time I went for the bus to the station instead of a 15-minute walk). -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 03:34:17 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:
behind Oyster. Haha. The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket Yes there is - validity to/from an NR station outside the zones. and paper season tickets aren't sold. Yes they are - see above. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:00:10 -0000, solar penguin wrote:
In fact, I'd actually prefer the option of being able to choose to buy special cheap-rate tickets that give even less choice than at present, for those times when they're the best option for my journey. Take for example, a return ticket between Gipsy Hill and "London Terminals". At the moment tickets are valid to and from any of half-a-dozen terminals, by almost any possible route. But if I know in advance I'm going to London Bridge and returning from there, it would be great to get a London Bridge only ticket, which cheaper because I don't have to pay for the availability at Victoria, Waterloo, etc. What makes you think it would be cheaper? |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:14:48 -0000, solar penguin wrote:
In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has Thanks. I didn't know that. You mean they've been charging me for journeys all the way to Sutton even when I've only been going as far as West Croydon! The sneaky *******s! Guess what, those sneaky *******s have also been charging you for 50 return journeys a day* when you've only been making 1. * Or however many is physically possible in the current timetable. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:10:39 -0000, solar penguin wrote:
I'm curious. Why do you think zonal fares are "straightforward, convenient" and "sensible"? IMHO they're an ungainly compromise between a proper flat-fare system and a proper route based system, either of which in themselves could be "straightforward, convenient" and "sensible". But like all such compromises, the zonal system manages to combine the worst aspects of both and the best of neither. Here's a simple example. Go one stop northbound from Kennington on either of the branches of the Northern line. Common sense says that these similar journeys ought to cost the same. Instead one costs much more than the other because it just happens to take you across a random, imaginary line on a map, while the other doesn't! The line is not random - zone 1 represents the central business area of London. Which is a real, physical thing and not imaginary. Even a point-to-point mileage-based system would take reality into account and charge higher rates per mile for travel in/into the cental area. So the Waterloo journey would still cost more. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Paul Scott wrote
Paul Scott wrote: "solar penguin" wrote What are we supposed to do when off-peak paper tickets in London are abolished next year? They haven't said that, they've said offpeak day return (CDR) paper tickets will not be available for travel within the zones. They haven't said there will be 'no paper tickets at all'. They'll still be needed to travel outside London, and I'm expecting when the NR fares changes are published they'll be selling paper offpeak travelcards in lieu of CDRs. The price is only marginally higher normally. Update today, as far as I can see the new NR fares are now uploaded for dates beyond Jan 2nd. Using as an example Surbiton - Waterloo[NR], the options seem to be: Anytime SIngle £5.00 Anytime Day return £9.80 Anytime Travelcard £14.80 Offpeak Travelcard £7.50 - same as daily Oyster PAYG cap The current Offpeak day return (CDR ) was £6.50 (but has disappeared AFAICT). So "The price is only marginally higher" is £1 more. But how much is a Esher or Hinchley Wood - Waterloo[NR] CDR which will still be available ? both come in Off-peak and Super-off-peak versions. And since only 1-6 1-4 1-2 & 2-6 off-peak ODTCs exist, and Railcard discount only on a 1-6 or a CDR how about Surbition - Wimbledon or Surbiton - New Malden for a worse case ? -- Mike D |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
Paul Scott wrote Update today, as far as I can see the new NR fares are now uploaded for dates beyond Jan 2nd. Using as an example Surbiton - Waterloo[NR], the options seem to be: Anytime SIngle £5.00 Anytime Day return £9.80 Anytime Travelcard £14.80 Offpeak Travelcard £7.50 - same as daily Oyster PAYG cap The current Offpeak day return (CDR ) was £6.50 (but has disappeared AFAICT). So "The price is only marginally higher" is £1 more. I think £1 extra is a bargain for the extra validity you get. How many pax just want to get to Waterloo after all? But how much is a Esher or Hinchley Wood - Waterloo[NR] CDR which will still be available ? both come in Off-peak and Super-off-peak versions. Esher - Waterloo: Offpeak Day Return £8.70 - so more than the inboundary travelcard Super Offpeak Day Return £6.80 - but no longer valid for return travel between 1600 & 1900, as well as the existing morning restrictions. I guess you're wondering if people might prefer to save 70p in the offpeak and have an argument when the Surbiton barriers won't let them through? Paul S |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
solar penguin wrote:
Mr Thant wrote: In fact, Southern already use zonal pricing for their seasons, so a Gipsy Hill - Sutton season costs exactly the same as what the OP has Thanks. I didn't know that. You mean they've been charging me for journeys all the way to Sutton even when I've only been going as far as West Croydon! The sneaky *******s! and I'm fairly certain is valid via both East and West Croydon and, so there's very little reason for them not to switch to one. Might also be valid via Balham/Mitcham as well. If so, I'd probably use that enough to justify getting one. Silly question, would it still open the barriers at West Croydon? I buy a "limit of the zone" to "limit of the zone" annual season ticket, and the barriers at Sutton accept it but the ones at Wallington don't. There is usually a queue of people with seasons waiting to be let through the manual gates at Wallington. In the past I used to get a one-zone travelcard as it wasn't that much more expensive and once I'd paid it made the marginal cost of bus and trips 0, but then they abolished them and a two-zone travelcard is vastly more expensive than a rail-only season ticket and paying bus fares on Oyster. Even if the black helicopters can now find me. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
John B wrote:
On Dec 7, 8:10 pm, "solar penguin" wrote: Add to that the fact with Travelcards instead of normal seasons, you're forced into paying extra for availability on other modes of transport, etc. that 99% of the time you're just not going to be using, and it becomes even less sensible. (Well, I suppose that might be sensible, convenient etc. for you, if and only if you routinely travel on many different modes of transport. But for the rest of us, it just plain isn't.) But who doesn't? I mean, who doesn't go out at weekends or evenings, who doesn't vary their route to work based on whether there are delays and if so on what mode, whether it's raining and how tired you are (for nearer-to-home-but-less-convenient-journey versus longer-walk- direct-journey versus bus), on whether they're in their normal office or a site somewhere, on whether they've stayed the night at home or at a friend's or partner's place, on a million other factors...? It wouldn't surprise me if most people don't. Especially keeping in mind that the sorts of people who use transport anorak newsgroups are very unlikely to accurately represent the population as a whole! Across London (and this is true even in Tube-less SE London), there are a huge number of alternative transport modes, be they bus, train or Tube, that you'll certainly want to use when things go a bit wrong, which is fairly often, and that you'll often want to use even when they don't. When the trains got titsup the buses (usually) seem to take train tickets. Even if they don't, they don't break hundreds of times a year. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:37:44 -0000, "solar penguin" wrote: I've been thinking a lot about my feelings towards Oyster, trying to work out _why_ I'm so sceptical towards it. I think it's because I'm sceptical towards the whole "zonal fares and Travelcards" concepts which Oyster is far too heavily mixed up in for my liking. You'll have to explain your thinking here. If there is a zonal, ride at will, multi modal ticket available I would always purchase it. It just gives so much more choice over travel options with little need to be concerned about where you are going once you've worked out the zones you want. Still I've buying zonally based tickets (all over the world) for about 30 years or so so I suppose I'm used to them. A point to point ticket might well say reasonably explicitly what it is valid for - "A to B single" or something. With a fancy product, Sod's Law says you stumble across the one service a week which doesn't actually accept it (especially if an airport is involved!). -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:34:17AM -0800, John B wrote:
The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't sold. Do LU sell one day travelcards on Oyster now then? Travelcards are season tickets, the one day version just happen to be for a very short season. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire We found no search results for "crotchet". Did you mean "crotch"? |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 05:16:54PM -0000, Paul Scott wrote:
I think £1 extra is a bargain for the extra validity you get. Only if you need the extra validity. How many pax just want to get to Waterloo after all? I do. Every time I've been to or from Waterloo station in the past several years it's been because I needed to be somewhere near to that station, within a short walk. If I want to go anywhere else, it's always been better to change at Balham, Victoria or London Bridge. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club" Human Rights left unattended may be removed, destroyed, or damaged by the security services. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On 9 Dec, 14:58, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:34:17AM -0800, John B wrote: The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't sold. Do LU sell one day travelcards on Oyster now then? *Travelcards are season tickets, the one day version just happen to be for a very short season. And it's possible that one might realise later in the day that one needs to extend zones. That's happened to me too. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On 8 Dec, 20:56, Arthur Figgis wrote:
When the trains got titsup the buses (usually) seem to take train tickets. Even if they don't, they don't break hundreds of times a year. OK, so how will this work going foward. Currently, you just show the driver your (paper) ticket & he lets you on. How will he know what (rail) ticket you have on a flashed oyster card? And if you're using PAYG, x number of buses to get to your destibnation might cost more than your NR trip across the zones.... |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 9, 2:58*pm, David Cantrell wrote:
On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:34:17AM -0800, John B wrote: The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't sold. Do LU sell one day travelcards on Oyster now then? *Travelcards are season tickets, the one day version just happen to be for a very short season. No they aren't, which is why the combination-of-ticket rules are different (ie with a ODTC, you need to have a BZ ticket or for the train to stop at the station where validity changes). In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?) -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 9, 4:30*pm, MIG wrote:
On 9 Dec, 14:58, David Cantrell wrote: On Mon, Dec 07, 2009 at 03:34:17AM -0800, John B wrote: The point is, on LU it isn't a problem, because on LU there's no reason to have a paper season ticket and paper season tickets aren't sold. Do LU sell one day travelcards on Oyster now then? *Travelcards are season tickets, the one day version just happen to be for a very short season. And it's possible that one might realise later in the day that one needs to extend zones. *That's happened to me too. ....but won't after January, because you'll simply be able to use your Oyster card on all means of transport within the zones and automatically be charged the ODTC price as a cap. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
John B wrote:
In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?) Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards? Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either... Paul S |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 10, 3:20*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote: John B wrote: In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?) Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards? Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either... The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift the ODTC to Oyster. (it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...) -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote: The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift the ODTC to Oyster. (it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...) The only problem is the outboundary ODTC. There'd be no reason to put the inboundary card "on" Oyster - the plan is that capped PAYG would replace it. I can see it getting to the point in not too much time, though, where TfL consider withdrawing from the through ticketing arrangements with the mainline (or insist an outboundary period Travelcard is issued in two bits - Oyster for London, paper for the rest) because maintaining the barriers would be cheaper without all the moving parts in the magstripe reading bit. Neil -- Neil Williams Put my first name before the at to reply. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B wrote:
In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?) Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards? Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either... The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift the ODTC to Oyster. (it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...) What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card, use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that withdrawing the paper ODTC would harm London's reputation as a tourist destination. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 23:04:42 GMT, Neil Williams wrote:
The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift the ODTC to Oyster. (it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...) The only problem is the outboundary ODTC. There'd be no reason to put the inboundary card "on" Oyster - the plan is that capped PAYG would replace it. I can see it getting to the point in not too much time, though, where TfL consider withdrawing from the through ticketing arrangements with the mainline (or insist an outboundary period Travelcard is issued in two bits - Oyster for London, paper for the rest) because maintaining the barriers would be cheaper without all the moving parts in the magstripe reading bit. What about NR point-to-point singles and returns (with the cross-London marker)? |
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Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Dec 11, 8:13*am, asdf wrote:
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B wrote: In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?) Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards? Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either... The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift the ODTC to Oyster. (it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...) What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card, use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that withdrawing the paper ODTC would harm London's reputation as a tourist destination. I think it's a massive and absurd exaggeration. For a start, I don't think the vast majority of travellers even particularly think about the public transport system where they're going, much less the ticketing methods used on it. In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations - and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty straightforward for everyone. (and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus from Londoners' perspective.) -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On 11 Dec, 13:06, John B wrote:
On Dec 11, 8:13*am, asdf wrote: On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 14:39:16 -0800 (PST), John B wrote: In any case, paper ODTCs become irrelevant at the same time as the abolition of CDRs (actually, that's an interesting one - are LU going to continue selling paper ODTCs now that there is absolutely no advantage in having one compared to a capped Oyster PAYG?) Surely they (and the TOCs) will carry on selling them for the benefit of those many millions of the population that haven't got Oyster cards? Clearly the TOCs aren't expecting every one of their cash customers to arrange an Oyster card by Jan 2nd either... The TOCs will continue, sure. I don't see why, given that LU no longer offers other multiple journey tickets on paper, they shouldn't shift the ODTC to Oyster. (it's not as if it'd be at all difficult for the millions of the population who don't have Oyster cards to, erm, get one...) What about all the tourists? It's hard for many of them to understand Oyster. Plus it would waste their time, and increase TfL's costs, if everyone visiting London (even for a day) had to buy an Oyster card, use it, then get their deposit refunded at a staffed ticket window. I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that withdrawing the paper ODTC would harm London's reputation as a tourist destination. I think it's a massive and absurd exaggeration. For a start, I don't think the vast majority of travellers even particularly think about the public transport system where they're going, much less the ticketing methods used on it. In any case, TfL could easily ensure that Oyster cards were available for gbp10 with gbp7 credit and gbp20 with gbp17 credit from vending machines at all airports, mainline terminals and major Tube stations - and from behind the counter at hotels, ticket stops, etc, packaged with a 10-language leaflet on how to top them up. That'd be pretty straightforward for everyone. (and very few people would bother getting a refund, which is a bonus from Londoners' perspective.) That would mean doing something helpful that takes into account people's circumstances. That is not the general approach to the introduction of Oyster so far, so why should it suddenly change? "TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account reality over the the last few years, but they refused. |
Extending point-to-point seasons next year
On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 06:09:05 -0800 (PST)
MIG wrote: "TfL could easily" have done a number of things that took into account reality over the the last few years, but they refused. Oyster was introduced to benefit TfL, no one else. So they'll do whats in their interests and the passenger can go hang. Its the typical "we know whats good for you" finger wagging british attitude. B2003 |
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