In
Mait001 wrote:

Why would you think tens of millions of people "never go on ANY
demonstration"?

You're espousing the view that there are a million or two of the demonstrator
category, and that they're a non-representative minority of trouble-makers
who
the rest tolerate. But you're wrong -- and dead wrong

I'd hazard a guess that, of the 55 million or so, only about 1 to 3 million
have EVER been on any demonstration of any sort.

But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I suggested
you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd, anti-war, pensioners,
petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is wrong.

I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens.

What do the rest of you think?

In fact, of my social circle, I have not met a single person who has ever been
on one.

Is that supposed to be surprising?

If your social circle is greater than say four, I'd say you'd need to ask
around a bit more, before misrepresenting them here.

People in this country like to demonstrate -- from all sections of society.
Even governments are bright enough to realise that fact.

Maybe in your social circle.

It's nothing to do with my social circle, I just watch things carefully.

Within the British Constitution, the right to demonstrate has been one of the
most jealously guarded rights that people of this country have -- why is
that?

It's always puzzled me!

Well there you go.

I recommend that you look into that more closely Marc.

Aren't you really just making some very uninteresting comment about yourself?

Uninteresting or not, you choose to read and reply to it.

I was making what I believe is a correction.

and are, in any event, too busy earning a living to spend a
day in slow-walking down Central London streets

Precisely. You don't give a **** about anything except yourself.

Well, who cares about you?

Except, people who are "too busy earning a living", are also "too busy" to
know
when they're being ****ed up the ass -- at least until it's too late.

Fortunately, at least in this country, there is a tradition of people who
think.

Feel free to join.

Utterly prejudiced nonsense.

What is?

If I said something wrong, please point it out -- precisely.

I have already stated an issue

But we're not talking about any issue.

about which I feel passionately - not for
selfish reasons but because it is causing grave damage to this Country's
democratic traditions - the European Union. I just do not believe in
demonstrations.

Your beliefs, however, are not reason to trash Britain's age-old
tradition. Nor does it make incorrect assumptions correct -- does it?

I could CHOOSE not to earn a living and live off the backs of others, but I
regard it as my DUTY to work to provide for me and those who depend on me. I
should not be prevented from doing that.

Or is the right to demonstrate MORE IMPORTANT than the right to work?

I'd say it is.

Certainly it's more fundamental. Take it away, and you'd have difficulty
justifying most other rights, (that had previously been taken for granted).

--
kedron

and are, in any event, too busy earning a living to spend a
day in slow-walking down Central London streets

Precisely. You don't give a **** about anything except yourself.

Well, who cares about you?

Except, people who are "too busy earning a living", are also "too busy" to
know
when they're being ****ed up the ass -- at least until it's too late.

Fortunately, at least in this country, there is a tradition of people who
think.

Feel free to join.

Utterly prejudiced nonsense.

What is?

If I said something wrong, please point it out -- precisely.


Okay, here goes:-

1. I do "give a ****" about lots of things apart from myself.
2. Lots of people care about me (or at least they say they do).
3. Your phrase ending with the words "****ed up the ass" is a bit obtuse for me
- if you explain what you mean then I'll be able to reply.
4. Your implication that I do not think is misconceived: you confuse inability
to think with disagreeing with your view.
5. I am a British subject already, so there is nothing for me to "join".

Precise enough?

Or is the right to demonstrate MORE IMPORTANT than the right to work?

I'd say it is.

That's your opinion and, on it, we'l just have to differ.

Certainly it's more fundamental. Take it away, and you'd have difficulty
justifying most other rights, (that had previously been taken for granted).

An interesting philosophical point, but as it happens I regard duty as more
important than "rights" anyway, and it's not only a right to work, in my view,
as long as one is able to do so, it is also a duty to work.

Marc.

In
Mait001 wrote:

and are, in any event, too busy earning a living to spend a
day in slow-walking down Central London streets

Precisely. You don't give a **** about anything except yourself.

Well, who cares about you?

Except, people who are "too busy earning a living", are also "too busy" to
know
when they're being ****ed up the ass -- at least until it's too late.

Fortunately, at least in this country, there is a tradition of people who
think.

Feel free to join.

Utterly prejudiced nonsense.

What is?

If I said something wrong, please point it out -- precisely.


Okay, here goes:-

1. I do "give a ****" about lots of things apart from myself.

Ok. It's an affirmation, but I'll take you at your word for now.

2. Lots of people care about me (or at least they say they do).

ditto.

3. Your phrase ending with the words "****ed up the ass" is a bit obtuse for me

Phrases are not generally said to be "obtuse". It's not the first time today
I heard the word used incorrectly. Perhaps you meant "abstruse", or perhaps,
just not specific. In any case, "****ed up the ass" means doing something
very bad to you -- like lying to you, or ****ing on your rights.

- if you explain what you mean then I'll be able to reply.

Yeah.

4. Your implication that I do not think is misconceived: you confuse inability
to think with disagreeing with your view.

I think your views, and particularly your WORDS here relating to the
rights to demonstrate, illustrate a blockage in your thought process
department. I'm willing to discuss that publicly with you, and in painful
detail.

5. I am a British subject already, so there is nothing for me to "join".

Specifically I was talking about those subjects who think.

Precise enough?

I think you'll find I am just that.

Or is the right to demonstrate MORE IMPORTANT than the right to work?

I'd say it is.

That's your opinion and, on it, we'l just have to differ.

Certainly it's more fundamental. Take it away, and you'd have difficulty
justifying most other rights, (that had previously been taken for granted).

An interesting philosophical point...

....it wasn't just a "philosophical point" to the people of say Romania
less than fifteen years ago -- was it?

Your RIGHT to demonstrate is a lot more powerful than even your right
to vote. The Romanians removed a dictator by demonstrating.

but as it happens I regard duty as more
important than "rights" anyway,

Like the right to complain about European integration?

Great. In that case just shut up. You have no rights, and you don't count.

and it's not only a right to work,

But who cares about rights? Duty to the Party is more important
--isn't that what you're saying? Or what?

in my view,

Yep.

as long as one is able to do so,

For how long will that be?

it is also a duty to work.

Good. No rights for you then.

Hands up -- anyone else?

--
kedron

kedron wrote:

I'd hazard a guess that, of the 55 million or so, only about 1 to 3
million have EVER been on any demonstration of any sort.

But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I suggested
you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd, anti-war,
pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is wrong.

I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens.

What do the rest of you think?

I've been around for 43 years now and know no-one who has ever been on any
kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care *that*
much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to cover - they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to
create a secure future for their families.

Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might disagree
(in my case this would, for example, include the recent war, the Bush visit
and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on a demonstration
about them - I have better things to do with my time

In
Stimpy wrote:

kedron wrote:
But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I suggested
you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd, anti-war,
pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is wrong.

I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens.

What do the rest of you think?

I've been around for 43 years now...

Deepest sympathies.

and know no-one who has ever been on any
kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care *that*
much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to cover -

So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?

How can you account for all those examples I provided above?

I left a few examples out -- like trade union demonstrators, animal
rights activists, environmentalists etc

People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things,
many of which you never hear about...like this one which appeared
in the news only yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...ds/3272961.stm

I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised.

they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to
create a secure future for their families.

You think demonstrators don't do that as well?

Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might disagree
(in my case this would, for example, include the recent war, the Bush visit
and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly wouldn't go on a demonstration
about them - I have better things to do with my time

And I'm not denying that there are many people like you who don't
care enough about anything to want to do something about it.
Nor am I saying I agree with every demonstrator. But I do agree with
their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising
that right than you suppose. I also believe that they can make a difference.
Like the one that's going to happen this week.

The difference between caring enough and not caring enough is a world of
a difference.

And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug
existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have happened
in THEIR names.

--
kedron

kedron wrote:
In
Stimpy wrote:

kedron wrote:
But that's just a guess. It's precisely the kind of guess I
suggested you were making. Between poll tax, country alliance, cnd,
anti-war, pensioners, petrol geeks etc etc, I'd say your guess is
wrong.

I'd say you're misjudging your fellow citizens.

What do the rest of you think?

I've been around for 43 years now...

Deepest sympathies.

Much appreciated ;-)


and know no-one who has ever been on any
kind of mass demonstration. Most people I know really don't care
*that* much about the sort of things that demonstrations tend to
cover -

So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?

How can you account for all those examples I provided above?

I don't know and don't really care. You asked what 'the rest' of us think
and I replied. I can't really see the point in getting into an argument
about someone else views. I was only trying to be polite by answering your
question.


I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised.

Oddly enough, I was with 5 other friends last night and we discussed this
very subject, apropos the Bush visit and the ongoing hunting ban debate.
None of them had ever been on a demontrstation or would even consider it.
Other friends I have known since school and/or university would also fall
into that category.


they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they
can to create a secure future for their families.

You think demonstrators don't do that as well?

Where did I say I thought that?


Sure there are things I might feel are wrong or with which I might
disagree (in my case this would, for example, include the recent
war, the Bush visit and the fox hunting ban) but I certainly
wouldn't go on a demonstration about them - I have better things to
do with my time

And I'm not denying that there are many people like you who don't
care enough about anything to want to do something about it.
Nor am I saying I agree with every demonstrator. But I do agree with
their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are
exercising that right than you suppose. I also believe that they can
make a difference. Like the one that's going to happen this week.

I agree. I don't recall stating I disagreed with the right to demonstrate.
I was merely posting that *I* didn't know anyone who would ever attend such
an event. Methinks you doth protest too much!


And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug
existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have
happened
in THEIR names.

Ah-ha... so just because I don't have the time or inclination to
demonstrate, that makes me smug does it?

So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?


I think your subsequent sentence:-

trade union demonstrators, animal
rights activists, environmentalists etc

gives the answer you were seeking, i.e. the usual rent-a-mob suspects.

People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things,

Really?

I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised.


I have already stated that, amongst my friends, NONE of them has ever been on a
demonstration. Now that I think of it, the same applies to my neighbours - the
ones that I know.

they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to
create a secure future for their families.

You think demonstrators don't do that as well?

Not at the same time that they are demonstrating!
Which is why I started commenting on this thread: these people are most likely
going to cost me a day's pay on the day them demonstrate.


But I do agree with
their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising
that right than you suppose.

A 100,000 or even a million or so - hardly a significant number when compared
with the population as a whole. Try as you will, all the hype against Bush and
the war cannot change the basic facts.

I also believe that they can make a difference.
Like the one that's going to happen this week.

I believe in fairies too!

The difference between caring enough and not caring enough is a world of
a difference.

Well, perhaps those of us who supported the war and wish to welcome Bush should
take a day off work and demonstrate our support for the war and him. I care
passionately about the World in which I live. The anti-Bush and anti-war
brigade do not have an exclusive on this subject.

And people who don't care enough shouldn't complain should their smug
existences ever get tossed upside down -- because it will have happened
in THEIR names.

The war did happen "in my name", which is why I take exception to those "not in
my name" twits. Just because we don't take to the streets with "in my name"
banners etc. does not mean our views are invalid or that we don't care about
the World.

Those who say "not in my name" legitimately represent nobody but themselves and
they are exaggerating their own self-importance if they claim to be speaking on
behalf of anyone else.

Marc.

In
Mait001 wrote:

So WHO are all these people who demonstrate?


I think your subsequent sentence:-

trade union demonstrators, animal
rights activists, environmentalists etc

gives the answer you were seeking, i.e. the usual rent-a-mob suspects.

Yeah, like pensioners. You're just a bigot. This is all about
your dumb feelings, about yobs and people you think are beneath
you -- isn't that right?

People are demonstrating all the time about all manner of things,

Really?

Aren't they?

I bet you if you asked around your friends, you might be surprised.


I have already stated that, amongst my friends, NONE of them has ever been on a
demonstration. Now that I think of it, the same applies to my neighbours - the
ones that I know.

So who are all those people? More than a million people
is just a rent-a-mob? Or do you actually want people to take what
you say seriously?

they, like
me, are just getting on with their own lives and doing the best they can to
create a secure future for their families.

You think demonstrators don't do that as well?

Not at the same time that they are demonstrating!
Which is why I started commenting on this thread: these people are most likely
going to cost me a day's pay on the day them demonstrate.

So you'd rather get your day's pay than do something to prevent thousands of
people from being slaughtered in a war, not sanctioned by the UN, and prosecuted
based on pack of lies?

Ok, so you agreed with the war -- but millions didn't. And many more
are starting to realise they were conned.

But I do agree with
their right to demonstrate, and I believe far more people are exercising
that right than you suppose.

A 100,000 or even a million or so - hardly a significant number when compared
with the population as a whole. Try as you will, all the hype against Bush and
the war cannot change the basic facts.

Not the "population as a whole". Millions couldn't demonstrate -- like children,
people who live too far away, sick people, old people, and of course people who
had no choice but to work. In the face of that, "a million or so" is a lot more
significant than you are trying to suggest.

I also believe that they can make a difference.
Like the one that's going to happen this week.

I believe in fairies too!

Tell that to the Eastern Europeans.

--
kedron

Which is why I started commenting on this thread: these people are most
likely
going to cost me a day's pay on the day them demonstrate.

So you'd rather get your day's pay than do something to prevent thousands of
people from being slaughtered in a war, not sanctioned by the UN, and
prosecuted
based on pack of lies?


I do not for one moment live in the cloud cuckoo-land that tells me that those
who demonstrate will " prevent thousands of people from being slaughtered in a
war".

Legal opinion is that the was was lawful and sanctioned by the United Nations.

prosecuted
based on pack of lies?

That has not (yet) been proved to be the case, but I believe, with or without
weapons of mass destruction, the war was justifiable.


Ok, so you agreed with the war -- but millions didn't. And many more
are starting to realise they were conned.

Well, just because I happen to agree with the war, as opposed to opposing it,
should I go on the streets to make my point?

Not the "population as a whole". Millions couldn't demonstrate -- like
children,
people who live too far away, sick people, old people, and of course people
who
had no choice but to work. In the face of that, "a million or so" is a lot
more
significant than you are trying to suggest.

There you go again, trying to spin a million (or whatever the actual number
was) to represent many more than just themselves. I do not accept that, but
even if they did, on your argument, represent say 10 million, that is still
hardly the population as a whole or even "the mass of the population" or
whatever other exaggeration you may care to use.



I also believe that they can make a difference.
Like the one that's going to happen this week.

I believe in fairies too!

Tell that to the Eastern Europeans.

--
kedron

The difference between the Eastern Europeans prior to the fall of the Russian
Empire was that they had NO democratic process by which to vent their views. I
do not accept that we, in the U.K. are in any way comparable to that situation.

Marc.

In
Mait001 wrote:

Not the "population as a whole". Millions couldn't demonstrate -- like children,
people who live too far away, sick people, old people, and of course people who
had no choice but to work. In the face of that, "a million or so" is a lot more
significant than you are trying to suggest.

There you go again, trying to spin a million (or whatever the actual number
was) to represent many more than just themselves.

What are you saying?

Are you saying this casual million, I'm spinning, represents the only people
who would have marched had they been able to, or had it been more convenient
for them to do so?

The bigots, liars and morons of this country are the real rabble.

eh?

--
kedron