Paul Corfield wrote on 30 December 2009 21:52:17 ...
On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 10:23:10 -0800 (PST), Sunil Sood
wrote:

Does anyone know of a website which is able to calculate whether using
PAYG Oyster or an annual Travelcard is better value for an individual?

Not that I am aware of.

I think I've used http://www.prepayortravelcard.com/ in the past but
it doesn't seem to be fully updated for 2010 yet and my local
Underground station doesn't yet have any 2010 fare booklets..

Note that there are no fares booklets for the 2010 increase. They have
been abolished. You are stuck with using the TfL website.

And as far as I can see, you have to look at vast numbers of different
web pages to get the whole picture. It was easy with a handy booklet to
be able to compare different fares in order to decide which option to go
for. Now you're forever clicking and scrolling through the jungle of
the TfL site. Yuk! Or have I missed a nice comprehensive PDF file
somewhere?

Is there anything like the old booklet for use by staff, e.g. station
staff faced with a customer query about fares?
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

In message of Thu, 31 Dec
2009 10:59:11 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes

[delete]


Is there anything like the old booklet for use by staff, e.g. station
staff faced with a customer query about fares?

There is internal documentation which I have copies of but I can't
provide copies. I'd get shot at dawn I'm afraid.


LU CSC did not know there is no intention to publish a couple of days
ago.

At what time would you be shot if you provided document titles?
I feel an FOI Act enquiry coming on.
--
Walter Briscoe

"Walter Briscoe" wrote in message
...
In message of Thu, 31 Dec
2009 10:59:11 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes

[delete]


Is there anything like the old booklet for use by staff, e.g. station
staff faced with a customer query about fares?

There is internal documentation which I have copies of but I can't
provide copies. I'd get shot at dawn I'm afraid.


LU CSC did not know there is no intention to publish a couple of days
ago.

At what time would you be shot if you provided document titles?
I feel an FOI Act enquiry coming on.

The wording in the Traffic Circular is

***
Station Staff are advised that the Fares and Ticket Leaflets for
customers will no longer published.
Customers requesting a leaflet must be referred to the fares finder on
the TfL website, for current
and single fares from 2 January 2010.
Staff information is contained in the Fares Revision Circular for 2
January 2010 published on the
'Hot Issues' page of the T&R Intranet site.
***

Peter Smyth

In article ,
(Peter Smyth) wrote:

Customers requesting a leaflet must be referred to the fares finder
on the TfL website, for current
and single fares from 2 January 2010.

*That* must be in breach of the DDA!
--
Colin Rosenstiel

I have been pondering recently whether it would be worthwhile for the
collective brains on u.t.l to put together an unofficial guide to
Oyster - with all the basic info that was previously in the booklet,
alongside the slightly more complex stuff that's not quite as widely
published, such as OSIs, split ticketing, and whether you can get
railcard-discounted PAYG capping when you're just travelling on buses.
Would anyone be interested in some kind of a web 2.0-type
collaboration?

I'd happily provide hosting for it and whatnot. I was going to FOI for
an updated OSI list in January to post on Reconnections anyway.

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card. If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be
cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you
need to currently"

OK, so please explain that last sentence.
"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to
currently"

On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:
Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

I wonder if the DfT has specifically approved this extension of the
penalty fare scheme?

On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:
On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On 31 Dec, 17:36, John B wrote:
On Dec 31, 4:43*pm, MIG wrote:





On 31 Dec, 14:28, Chris wrote:

Just been nosing around London TravelWatch's webpage for Oyster on the
rails & the last para here -http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/news.php?id=696, says

"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card.

I am pretty sure that this is illegal. *There is no way that it could
comply with the penalty fare rules.

How d'you figure that?

In order to avoid being charged a PF in a PF area, you must on demand
"produce a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by
that train", subject to the usual exceptions (no facilities to buy,
inadequate notices, a notice or railway staff said you could travel).

For Oyster cards that have Travelcards loaded, Oyster PAYG will not be
valid on National Rail services outside your Travelcard zones unless
you also have an IEP loaded. This means that, if you're gripped
outside your Travelcard zones and don't have an IEP, then you don't
have a ticket or other authority authorising your travelling by that
train, so you're eligible for a PF.

It's exactly as if you were to try and travel outside your Travelcard
zones on Oyster on NR today (on one of the non-inter-available routes)
- the amount of PAYG balance on your card is irrelevant, and you are
thoroughly eligible for a PF, because Oyster PAYG is not a valid means
of payment.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

But in the relevant context, it will be valid means of payment. In
fact, it's the only means of payment you'd be able to use in the
circumstances. An OEP isn't a means of payment. Will the exit
barrier refuse to charge the card if it hasn't got an OEP on it at the
end of an ungripped journey?

But more importantly, how is the warning displayed when you start your
journey? That's going to be the main issue. It's not enough having
the information on the Web or discussed in forums.

Under Penalty Fares, the TfL site currently only mentions not having
touched in for liability.

On Dec 31, 3:34*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 06:28:51 -0800 (PST), Chris



wrote:
"Oyster Extension Permits

If your Travelcard is on Oyster, and you wish to travel outside your
zones, but still within London by national rail, you will now be
required to ??~set’ an Oyster Extension Permit before the start of
your journey at a ticket office or machine. If you do not do this, you
will liable for a penalty fare of £20, even if you have ample credit
on your card. If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be
cheaper (and equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you
need to currently"

OK, so please explain that last sentence.
"If you have an annual ticket (Gold Card) it will be cheaper (and
equally as inconvenient) to get a paper extension, as you need to
currently"

I assume it means that because Gold Card holders are unable to have a
discount set on their Oyster card they might be disadvantaged by using
normal PAYG. However I fail to see why, given the £13 minimum fare M-F
for an adult Network discounted ticket that anyone would be concerned
about a Network discount for an extension ticket.

At weekends there is no minimum fare so it might be advantageous for
them to use their Network Card to obtain a 1/3 off an Anytime single or
return (given that there are no off peak tickets within the zones post
2/1/10).

I assume the inconvenience reference is London Travelwatch considering
the setting of an OEP to be as inconvenient as queuing at a ticket
office to purchase a ticket.

No - the inconvenience is that if I have a z12 Gold Card on Oyster
(which I do) and want the cheapest fare to Surbiton, then I still need
to queue up for a paper BZ2-Surbiton ticket, rather than getting an
IEP, touching in at Waterloo and touching out at Surbiton.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org