When will the extension(s) appear on the tube map? Or will they appear
at all?

On a similar vein, does anyone have any information on plans to include
high-frequency National Rail routes on the standard Tube map? (I know
about the Overground Network pilot project).

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...
When will the extension(s) appear on the tube map? Or will they appear
at all?

On a similar vein, does anyone have any information on plans to include
high-frequency National Rail routes on the standard Tube map? (I know
about the Overground Network pilot project).

I suspect it'll appear initially when all the tub thumping is underway, then
when LU and everyone else actually stand up and admit that all they've created
is yet another suburban 3rd rail route with the associated lousy service it'll
no longer be called the ELL and will disappear of tube maps never to be seen
again, a bit like the drayton park - moorgate line. My personal prediction
(and I stand to be proved completely wrong) is that this line will not be
nearly as popular as those in power seem to think it will be. The only real use
it will have is as a commuter route to interchange with the jubilee line for
docklands , I doubt even a small percentage will use it for cross town travel.
I can think of FAR better schemes to have spent money on than this.

B2003

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Boltar ),
in message who said:
Dave Arquati wrote in message
...
When will the extension(s) appear on the tube map? Or will they
appear
at all?

On a similar vein, does anyone have any information on plans to
include
high-frequency National Rail routes on the standard Tube map? (I know
about the Overground Network pilot project).

I suspect it'll appear initially when all the tub thumping is
underway, then
when LU and everyone else actually stand up and admit that all
they've created
is yet another suburban 3rd rail route with the associated lousy
service it'll
no longer be called the ELL and will disappear of tube maps never to
be seen
again, a bit like the drayton park - moorgate line. My personal
prediction (and I stand to be proved completely wrong) is that this
line will not be
nearly as popular as those in power seem to think it will be. The
only real use
it will have is as a commuter route to interchange with the jubilee
line for
docklands , I doubt even a small percentage will use it for cross
town travel.
I can think of FAR better schemes to have spent money on than this.



I would tend to agree.

It seems to be an attempt to join up little bits of existing infrastructure,
just so LU can say 'Hey, look, we've built a whole new long line'. No you
haven't.

The decision not to include a Central Line interchange was a major mistake,
as this would at least give people an additional reason for using it.

As it is, getting into the centre from the southern end will take a lot
longer than using a mainline service, so the demand simply isn't going to be
there.

Woohoo. Croydon to Whitechapel in 40 minutes, then change onto a lethargic
District service into the City. Can't see it proving too popular, somehow.

BTN

Ben Nunn wrote:
Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Boltar ),
in message who said:

Dave Arquati wrote in message
...

When will the extension(s) appear on the tube map? Or will they
appear
at all?

On a similar vein, does anyone have any information on plans to
include
high-frequency National Rail routes on the standard Tube map? (I know
about the Overground Network pilot project).

I suspect it'll appear initially when all the tub thumping is
underway, then
when LU and everyone else actually stand up and admit that all
they've created
is yet another suburban 3rd rail route with the associated lousy
service it'll
no longer be called the ELL and will disappear of tube maps never to
be seen
again, a bit like the drayton park - moorgate line. My personal
prediction (and I stand to be proved completely wrong) is that this
line will not be
nearly as popular as those in power seem to think it will be. The
only real use
it will have is as a commuter route to interchange with the jubilee
line for
docklands , I doubt even a small percentage will use it for cross
town travel.
I can think of FAR better schemes to have spent money on than this.

I would tend to agree.

It seems to be an attempt to join up little bits of existing infrastructure,
just so LU can say 'Hey, look, we've built a whole new long line'. No you
haven't.

The decision not to include a Central Line interchange was a major mistake,
as this would at least give people an additional reason for using it.

As it is, getting into the centre from the southern end will take a lot
longer than using a mainline service, so the demand simply isn't going to be
there.

Woohoo. Croydon to Whitechapel in 40 minutes, then change onto a lethargic
District service into the City. Can't see it proving too popular, somehow.

BTN

I don't think anyone is claiming that that's the idea. The idea is to
provide an ability to perform orbital journeys - so of course they're
not looking at Croydon to the City via Whitechapel! Croydon to Canary
Wharf or Stratford via Canada Water on the other hand is much better and
cheaper than changing at London Bridge, and reduces pressure on central
area termini. In fact for many journeys it will be possible to avoid
Zone 1 - which makes it cheaper for the passenger and stops journeys
unnecessarily going through Zone 1.

Another point of the project is that it does not involve vast amounts of
money - a connection over disused track at either end links a backwater
line into the main networks and allows a multitude of journey
opportunities for relatively low cost.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...
Ben Nunn wrote:
Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Boltar ),
in message who said:

Dave Arquati wrote in message
...

When will the extension(s) appear on the tube map? Or will they
appear
at all?

On a similar vein, does anyone have any information on plans to
include
high-frequency National Rail routes on the standard Tube map? (I know
about the Overground Network pilot project).

I suspect it'll appear initially when all the tub thumping is
underway, then
when LU and everyone else actually stand up and admit that all
they've created
is yet another suburban 3rd rail route with the associated lousy
service it'll
no longer be called the ELL and will disappear of tube maps never to
be seen
again, a bit like the drayton park - moorgate line. My personal
prediction (and I stand to be proved completely wrong) is that this
line will not be
nearly as popular as those in power seem to think it will be. The
only real use
it will have is as a commuter route to interchange with the jubilee
line for
docklands , I doubt even a small percentage will use it for cross
town travel.
I can think of FAR better schemes to have spent money on than this.

I would tend to agree.

It seems to be an attempt to join up little bits of existing infrastructure,
just so LU can say 'Hey, look, we've built a whole new long line'. No you
haven't.

The decision not to include a Central Line interchange was a major mistake,
as this would at least give people an additional reason for using it.

As it is, getting into the centre from the southern end will take a lot
longer than using a mainline service, so the demand simply isn't going to be
there.

Woohoo. Croydon to Whitechapel in 40 minutes, then change onto a lethargic
District service into the City. Can't see it proving too popular, somehow.

BTN

I don't think anyone is claiming that that's the idea. The idea is to
provide an ability to perform orbital journeys - so of course they're
not looking at Croydon to the City via Whitechapel! Croydon to Canary
Wharf or Stratford via Canada Water on the other hand is much better and
cheaper than changing at London Bridge, and reduces pressure on central
area termini. In fact for many journeys it will be possible to avoid
Zone 1 - which makes it cheaper for the passenger and stops journeys
unnecessarily going through Zone 1.

Another point of the project is that it does not involve vast amounts of
money - a connection over disused track at either end links a backwater
line into the main networks and allows a multitude of journey
opportunities for relatively low cost.

I thought the ELL was going to become part of NR and was planned as a
new freight route as well. I'd guess they'll keep it on the tube map
like they have the NLL on.

CJC wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...

Ben Nunn wrote:

Unless I'm very much mistaken, it was Boltar ),
in message who said:


Dave Arquati wrote in message
...


When will the extension(s) appear on the tube map? Or will they
appear
at all?

On a similar vein, does anyone have any information on plans to
include
high-frequency National Rail routes on the standard Tube map? (I know
about the Overground Network pilot project).

I suspect it'll appear initially when all the tub thumping is
underway, then
when LU and everyone else actually stand up and admit that all
they've created
is yet another suburban 3rd rail route with the associated lousy
service it'll
no longer be called the ELL and will disappear of tube maps never to
be seen
again, a bit like the drayton park - moorgate line. My personal
prediction (and I stand to be proved completely wrong) is that this
line will not be
nearly as popular as those in power seem to think it will be. The
only real use
it will have is as a commuter route to interchange with the jubilee
line for
docklands , I doubt even a small percentage will use it for cross
town travel.
I can think of FAR better schemes to have spent money on than this.

I would tend to agree.

It seems to be an attempt to join up little bits of existing infrastructure,
just so LU can say 'Hey, look, we've built a whole new long line'. No you
haven't.

The decision not to include a Central Line interchange was a major mistake,
as this would at least give people an additional reason for using it.

As it is, getting into the centre from the southern end will take a lot
longer than using a mainline service, so the demand simply isn't going to be
there.

Woohoo. Croydon to Whitechapel in 40 minutes, then change onto a lethargic
District service into the City. Can't see it proving too popular, somehow.

BTN

I don't think anyone is claiming that that's the idea. The idea is to
provide an ability to perform orbital journeys - so of course they're
not looking at Croydon to the City via Whitechapel! Croydon to Canary
Wharf or Stratford via Canada Water on the other hand is much better and
cheaper than changing at London Bridge, and reduces pressure on central
area termini. In fact for many journeys it will be possible to avoid
Zone 1 - which makes it cheaper for the passenger and stops journeys
unnecessarily going through Zone 1.

Another point of the project is that it does not involve vast amounts of
money - a connection over disused track at either end links a backwater
line into the main networks and allows a multitude of journey
opportunities for relatively low cost.


I thought the ELL was going to become part of NR and was planned as a
new freight route as well. I'd guess they'll keep it on the tube map
like they have the NLL on.

It's set to become part of a new Orbirail franchise, along with the NLL,
WLL and Goblin AFAIK. I'm not sure whether they have plans to use it for
freight - I'd guess they'd want to limit freight since it can easily
disrupt passenger services, and the frequency on the core section will
be increased once the extensions are running.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7

Dave Arquati wrote in message ...
I don't think anyone is claiming that that's the idea. The idea is to
provide an ability to perform orbital journeys - so of course they're
not looking at Croydon to the City via Whitechapel! Croydon to Canary
Wharf or Stratford via Canada Water on the other hand is much better and
cheaper than changing at London Bridge, and reduces pressure on central
area termini. In fact for many journeys it will be possible to avoid
Zone 1 - which makes it cheaper for the passenger and stops journeys
unnecessarily going through Zone 1.

But how many people will want to do that? Yes ok you'll get a few but
enough to justify the money spent? I doubt it. Far cheaper I would have
thought would have simply been to make the current ELL more usable by having
through trains from the main met line so making the ELL far more useful to the
people in the new cross area that a line to finsbury park will ever be (yes
I know there are issues with St Marys Curve but its hardly a show stopper).

I suspect the real reason LU is happy to divest itself of the ELL is cost
cutting. I very much doubt the line makes anything close to a profit at the
moment given how much it costs to maintain the tunnels and getting shot of it
will make the books look much rosier. Call me a cynic if you will....

B2003

Boltar wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote in message ...

I don't think anyone is claiming that that's the idea. The idea is to
provide an ability to perform orbital journeys - so of course they're
not looking at Croydon to the City via Whitechapel! Croydon to Canary
Wharf or Stratford via Canada Water on the other hand is much better and
cheaper than changing at London Bridge, and reduces pressure on central
area termini. In fact for many journeys it will be possible to avoid
Zone 1 - which makes it cheaper for the passenger and stops journeys
unnecessarily going through Zone 1.


But how many people will want to do that? Yes ok you'll get a few but
enough to justify the money spent? I doubt it. Far cheaper I would have
thought would have simply been to make the current ELL more usable by having
through trains from the main met line so making the ELL far more useful to the
people in the new cross area that a line to finsbury park will ever be (yes
I know there are issues with St Marys Curve but its hardly a show stopper).

I suspect the real reason LU is happy to divest itself of the ELL is cost
cutting. I very much doubt the line makes anything close to a profit at the
moment given how much it costs to maintain the tunnels and getting shot of it
will make the books look much rosier. Call me a cynic if you will....

B2003

I have to disagree. The southern extension opens up large populations in
South London to journey opportunities to East London and vice versa.
Let's say you live in Crystal Palace. Getting to the City is no problem
with direct trains to Cannon St, and ditto with the West End and Charing
Cross. However, to get to Docklands (an area with a boom in employment),
you have to travel to London Bridge and change on to the Jubilee Line.
That's a waste of (extremely limited) capacity at London Bridge. Not
only that, if you travel by ELL instead, your annual season ticket will
cost you £664 instead of £1136! I'd say that's the kind of difference
that will make people seriously consider even longer journeys using the
new ELL.

I don't see how through trains to the ELL make life that much easier for
New Cross residents, compared to the benefits obtained by extending
services to large populations in North and South London. New Cross
residents already have a direct service to the City and West End. As for
the further reaches of the Met, it might be quicker to change at Canada
Water or London Bridge onto the Jubilee line rather than crawl through
the northern Circle.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7