On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote:

(Mizter T) wrote:
I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an
OEP and starts at an NR station.

Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I
think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt!

Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3
Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then
Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping.

Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3
Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they
want to head into town.

Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion
examples.

(I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP
business?)

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires
an OEP and starts at an NR station.

Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I
think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt!

Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3
Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then
Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping.

Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3
Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they
want to head into town.

Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion
examples.

(I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP
business?)

All the journeys I've seen before now were based on using the travelcard
season first, so in most cases starting in zone 1. I agree that if you
have a season to go one way and want to make a completely unrelated trip
in the other direction it would make sense.

I was thinking of a commuter making an after-work trip which would likely
bin in zone 1.

I hadn't thought of that sort of journey and agree. If I lived in Putney
and had a season to get to Westminster I could find getting an OEP to get
to Richmond a bit of a pain (though I now know the ticket stop on Putney
Hill near Putney Station quite well).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote:





(Mizter T) wrote:
I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).

I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an
OEP and starts at an NR station.

Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I
think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt!

Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3
Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then
Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping.

Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3
Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they
want to head into town.

Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion
examples.

Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?

The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing
Cross heading for Slade Green. You need the OEP if gripped between
Greenwich and Slade Green.

The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station.

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?

Good point.

The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing
Cross heading for Slade Green. You need the OEP if gripped between
Greenwich and Slade Green.

The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station.

But has an adjacent underground station. Many users will approach it such
that calling at a tube station won't be a major inconvenience.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 5 Feb, 23:11, wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?

Good point.


Except that I was forgetting that the travelcard is still valid at the
point of touching in, so the OEP still needed.

It's just not as common as starting the journey at a London Terminal.


The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing
Cross heading for Slade Green. *You need the OEP if gripped between
Greenwich and Slade Green.

The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station.

But has an adjacent underground station. Many users will approach it such
that calling at a tube station won't be a major inconvenience.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
, MIG
writes

On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:

Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.

Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?

That's exactly what a lot of people would assume, because that is how
things work when using a travelcard + PAYG on TfL. In fact, your comment
goes to the very heart of the confusion about OEPs.

Unlike TfL, almost all of whose stations are gated, the TOCs weren't
willing to take the revenue risk of people who travel beyond their zones
simply not touching out at one of their many ungated stations, and thus
not paying anything for travelling out of zone.

Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example)
deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2
travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when
touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge
from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4.

The theory is that if you are gripped on NR while travelling out of zone
without an OEP, you will be charged a penalty fare. The OEP acts as
evidence that money has already been deducted for travelling out of zone
when you touched in at Waterloo (*).

As has been said, there is considerable doubt that an appeal would find
such a penalty charge fair or even legal, given that a maximum cash fare
has already been paid at the start of the journey. It has been said (I
think by Caroline Pidgeon at Mayor's Questions) that some TOCs are
deliberately not issuing penalty fares in these circumstances in order
to avoid the courts declaring the entire OEP system invalid.

(* If you change your mind and get out at Putney, in Zone 2, the cash
fare is reimbursed when you touch out, and the OEP stays on the Oyster
for when you next want to travel out of zone).
--
Paul Terry

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 09:01:24 +0000, Paul Terry
wrote:

Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example)
deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2
travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when
touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge
from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4.

No - *if* an OEP is set before travel in this example then a "mixed
travel" entry charge being deducted. This is less than the maximum cash
fare - being £4.20 peak and £3.40 off peak.

How does that square with the statement in the TfL staff briefing
that...

"Passengers must remember to touch out when they have an Oyster
Extension Permit on their card. If they do not, they will be charged a
maximum Oyster fare." ?

And the statement on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx about PAYG that ...

"When you touch in an entry charge of up to £6.50 will be deducted from
your Oyster card." ?

Does having an OEP reduce the entry charge to the figures you quote
above?

And why make a mixed-mode entry charge when in many cases the journey is
likely to be entirely on NR?

Sorry for pedantry but trying to get the terminology right is important
on such a complicated issue.

No problem - you are right to do so. But I get the feeling that there is
still a huge lack of clarity about the operation of OEPs.
--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Paul Corfield
writes

On Sat, 6 Feb 2010 09:01:24 +0000, Paul Terry

wrote:

Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example)
deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2
travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when
touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge
from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4.

No - *if* an OEP is set before travel in this example then a "mixed
travel" entry charge being deducted. This is less than the maximum
cash
fare - being £4.20 peak and £3.40 off peak.

How does that square with the statement in the TfL staff briefing
that...

"Passengers must remember to touch out when they have an Oyster
Extension Permit on their card. If they do not, they will be charged a
maximum Oyster fare." ?

And the statement on
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/5823.aspx about PAYG that
...

"When you touch in an entry charge of up to £6.50 will be deducted
from your Oyster card." ?

Does having an OEP reduce the entry charge to the figures you quote
above?

And why make a mixed-mode entry charge when in many cases the journey
is likely to be entirely on NR?

I think the reasoning is that all travelcard seasons cover at least 2
zones. Therefore the maximum you can pay as an extension is 4 zones
including Z1, which is £4.20/£3.40 (ignoring trips to Amersham etc).

Peter Smyth

In message , Peter Smyth
writes

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

And why make a mixed-mode entry charge when in many cases the journey
is likely to be entirely on NR?

I think the reasoning is that all travelcard seasons cover at least 2
zones. Therefore the maximum you can pay as an extension is 4 zones
including Z1, which is £4.20/£3.40 (ignoring trips to Amersham etc).

Ah, that would make sense. Thanks.
--
Paul Terry

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Yes and note the words "up to". There are all sorts of different
charges depending on what zone you are in, what time of day it is and
whether an OEP is present. TfL do not publish all of these charges on
the web hence the "up to" statement. I am able to see other info which
is how I know the other charges exist.

Ah, thanks.
--
Paul Terry