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Old February 5th 10, 09:32 PM posted to uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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Default London Travelwatch on OEPs

On 5 Feb, 17:31, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 5:12*pm, MIG wrote:

On 5 Feb, 17:10, Mizter T wrote:


On Feb 5, 4:24*pm, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:


Another factor is that London Midland ticket machines have not been
upgraded to issue OEPs.


Do they handle Oyster at all?


The machines at Euston have Oyster pads ... are they LO or LM though?


LM. In which case I think we might be able to say that the Scheidt &
Bachmann ticket machines which are equipped to 'do' Oyster nonetheless
can't 'do' OEPs for whatever reason - Southeastern has S&B machines,
and whilst they too do Oyster they don't do OEPs (must confess that I
haven't presented one with an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard on
it yet, so I suppose it could be an option that's hidden, but I have
my doubts it would work like that).


Yes, I've looked since and they are LM. It occurs to me that there
wouldn't be any LM stations where Oyster is valid that wouldn't also
be LO stations.



Just wondering if the rule is that Shere ticket machines (such as
Southern) do OEPs, S&B don't (yet)?

(If so, then it's also interesting that LO have got some of both
types, I think.)



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Old February 5th 10, 09:38 PM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote:





(Mizter T) wrote:
I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).


I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an
OEP and starts at an NR station.


Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I
think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt!

Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3
Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then
Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping.

Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3
Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they
want to head into town.

Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion
examples.


Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?

The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing
Cross heading for Slade Green. You need the OEP if gripped between
Greenwich and Slade Green.

The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station.
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Old February 6th 10, 08:01 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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Default London Travelwatch on OEPs

In message
, MIG
writes

On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:


Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.


Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?


That's exactly what a lot of people would assume, because that is how
things work when using a travelcard + PAYG on TfL. In fact, your comment
goes to the very heart of the confusion about OEPs.

Unlike TfL, almost all of whose stations are gated, the TOCs weren't
willing to take the revenue risk of people who travel beyond their zones
simply not touching out at one of their many ungated stations, and thus
not paying anything for travelling out of zone.

Hence, an OEP is required. Touching in at Waterloo (in this example)
deducts a maximum cash fare, despite the fact there is a Z1/Z2
travelcard on the Oyster. The actual PAYG fare is then adjusted when
touching out (at Ricmond in Zone 4) - basically resulting in a charge
from the boundary of Zone 2 to Zone 4.

The theory is that if you are gripped on NR while travelling out of zone
without an OEP, you will be charged a penalty fare. The OEP acts as
evidence that money has already been deducted for travelling out of zone
when you touched in at Waterloo (*).

As has been said, there is considerable doubt that an appeal would find
such a penalty charge fair or even legal, given that a maximum cash fare
has already been paid at the start of the journey. It has been said (I
think by Caroline Pidgeon at Mayor's Questions) that some TOCs are
deliberately not issuing penalty fares in these circumstances in order
to avoid the courts declaring the entire OEP system invalid.

(* If you change your mind and get out at Putney, in Zone 2, the cash
fare is reimbursed when you touch out, and the OEP stays on the Oyster
for when you next want to travel out of zone).
--
Paul Terry
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Old February 6th 10, 08:45 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 5, 4:26*pm, wrote:





(Mizter T) wrote:
I should add, I'm not planning on traipsing round the railways of
London actively looking for a confrontation! Just that, I wouldn't let
the lack of an OEP deter me from travelling at all. The problem is, of
course, that the blurb says an OEP must be obtained before travelling,
so it puts people who're trying to do the right thing in an awkward
position - but I'd have no qualms about travelling should an OEP not
be obtainable from my starting station (if there was a newsagents
directly next to the station then maybe, I might get one - but if I
wasn't buying anything else it'd feel a bit weird to go in there to
ask for a 'free' ticket, though I suppose along with people coming in
to check their Oyster PAYG balance and not buying anything it could be
said to be part of the quid-pro-quo when you agree to retail Oyster
products, given the number of people it does bring through the door).


I'm still struggling to envisage a typical journey which both requires an
OEP and starts at an NR station.


Really? You said something similar in another thread. In that case I
think you're being completely devoid of any imagination, to be blunt!

Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3
Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then
Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping.

Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3
Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they
want to head into town.

Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.

I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion
examples.

(I'm wondering if you've got the wrong end of the stick on this OEP
business?)


My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled
there from Chingford by bus).

Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard.
When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains
and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train.
So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other. I chickened
out and jumped on the District Line...


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Old February 6th 10, 08:50 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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In message
,
Railist writes

My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled
there from Chingford by bus).

Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard.
When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains
and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train.
So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other.


No. You don't need an OEP when travelling back into your zones - the
fare is handled by Oyster in the normal way (PAYG for the first bit and
travelcard for the rest).

You only need an OEP when travelling OUT of your zones by NR.
--
Paul Terry
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Old February 6th 10, 08:57 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On 6 Feb, 09:50, Paul Terry wrote:
In message
,
Railist writes

My real life example last week: found myself in Barking (had travelled
there from Chingford by bus).


Barking is in Zone 4, at the time I had Zone 1 - 3 travelcard.
When I touched in, on one platform were Westbound District line trains
and on the adjacent platform was a c2c train.
So I would need an OEP for one service bit not the other.


No. You don't need an OEP when travelling back into your zones - the
fare is handled by Oyster in the normal way (PAYG for the first bit and
travelcard for the rest).

You only need an OEP when travelling OUT of your zones by NR.
--
Paul Terry


Oh right! That's good to know. I now have z1-5 so less likely to need
OEP...
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Old February 6th 10, 09:45 AM posted to uk.transport.london
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On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:33:18 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Oh, and I don't
think LM guards automatically have the authority to issue PFs, do they?


I have never seen them do anything to a ticketless passenger other
than sell them a ticket. So far as I can tell, PFs only get issued by
gateline staff on LM.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.
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Old February 6th 10, 10:02 AM posted to uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 5 Feb, 23:48, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 5 Feb 2010 14:38:17 -0800 (PST), MIG





wrote:
On 5 Feb, 17:22, Mizter T wrote:
Ok, Forest Hill (z3) to East Croydon (z5) - pax holds a z1-3
Travelcard for their commute into town (train to London Bridge then
Tube), but they want to go to Croydon to do some shopping.


Westcombe Park (z3) to Charing Cross (z1) - pax holds a z2&3
Travelcard for their commute to Canary Wharf (train and DLR), but they
want to head into town.


Putney (z2/3) to Richmond (z4) - pax holds a z1&2 Travelcard for their
commute into town (train to Waterloo then W&C line into the City), but
they want to go and have a walk and drink by the river.


I could go on, and on, and on, but I won't! There are a gazillion
examples.


Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?


Eh? *In every example that Mizter T as outlined you commence in your
Travelcard zones, are using a NR service, and arrive at an out of zonal
validity destination on a NR service. *That means an OEP is needed. *On
the return leg where you commence outside the zones then an OEP is *not*
required.



You are right, and I realised afterwards, that in Mizter T's examples
you'd be touching in at a boundary station where the travelcard was
valid.

My focus was on the fact that it wouldn't be necessary to be doing
something like that for the journey to start at an NR station. Unless
the journey involved a change somewhere like Stratford or Barking,
you'd nearly always be starting the OEP-needing journey at an NR
station.


The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing
Cross heading for Slade Green. *You need the OEP if gripped between
Greenwich and Slade Green.


The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station.


And that example is no different to those used by Mizter T except you're
starting in Zone 1.

I think I need to set my little Oyster on NR quiz!
--
Paul C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


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Old February 6th 10, 10:07 AM posted to uk.transport.london
MIG MIG is offline
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On 5 Feb, 23:11, wrote:
In article
,

(MIG) wrote:
Ang on; aren't those just examples where they'd be on PAYG for the
whole journey?


Good point.



Except that I was forgetting that the travelcard is still valid at the
point of touching in, so the OEP still needed.

It's just not as common as starting the journey at a London Terminal.


The typical situation is you've got zone 1 - 2 and get on at Charing
Cross heading for Slade Green. *You need the OEP if gripped between
Greenwich and Slade Green.


The journey begins at Charing Cross, which is an NR station.


But has an adjacent underground station. Many users will approach it such
that calling at a tube station won't be a major inconvenience.

--
Colin Rosenstiel




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