LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 21 Feb, 15:33, Roy Badami wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf

6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card

6.6.1. When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail
services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see
clause 6.8.) at both the start and the end of your journey. If the
ticket gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card
on the yellow card reader.

You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it
is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go
balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before
you use your Travelcard season ticket.

Provided that the season ticket on your Oyster card is available and
valid at the time you travel, you can still use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working.
You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where
needed).

and

6.6.7. When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow
card reader (see clause 6.8.) as you board the bus. If you board the bus
without having touched your Oyster card on the yellow card reader or
having paid a cash single fare, you may be liable to a Penalty fare or
you may be prosecuted. Special arrangements apply if you are
accompanying a wheelchair user (see clause 13.2.1.) and to users of
double buggies (see clause 13.2.5.). If the bus has a conductor, when
asked, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader on
his/her ticket machine. If the yellow card reader on a bus or a
conductor’s ticket machine is not working, you must show your Oyster
card to the driver or conductor.

I haven't read anything into the "should" and "must", but I am
convinced that there can't be any intention of penalty-faring anyone
who has a valid travelcard within their zones. It must be to
encourage people to be in the habit. But I look forward to the court
case with glee.

However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:12:19 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.

I can see the point (on non-bendy buses) to verify everyone has a
valid ticket. It's easier for the driver to listen for a beeb than
checking a photocard flashed very quickly.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 21 Feb, 16:25, Ivor The Engine wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:12:19 -0800 (PST), MIG

wrote:
However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.

I can see the point (on non-bendy buses) to verify everyone has a
valid ticket. *It's easier for the driver to listen for a beeb than
checking a photocard flashed very quickly.

Oh, of course. And it's no problem doing that on a straight bus, but
being liable to a penalty fare?

I did wonder when it was discussed previously whether this was to
prepare for debendification.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Feb 21, 3:33*pm, Roy Badami wrote:
Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf


Of course, this reads differently to the text in the Oyster Conditions
of Carriage on National Rail, valid from the same date.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

where the wording is should.

I doubt that could be a successful attempt to enforce one in
preference to the other. Indeed, if travelling on National Rail, why
would a user even have to worry about the Conditions of Carriage for
TfL.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 21 Feb, 16:52, Andy wrote:
On Feb 21, 3:33*pm, Roy Badami wrote:





Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded
with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement
when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail
services" (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-....

---quote---
3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster
card on the yellow card
reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving
from; and at the end of your
journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still
use your Oyster card at
stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working
provided that your
Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked
instead to show your
Oyster card (and photocard where needed).

And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the
above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf

Of course, this reads differently to the text in the Oyster Conditions
of Carriage on National Rail, valid from the same date.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-...

where the wording is should.

I doubt that could be a successful attempt to enforce one in
preference to the other. Indeed, if travelling on National Rail, why
would a user even have to worry about the Conditions of Carriage for
TfL.-

It also contradicts the NRCoC, because they say that an electronic
ticket has the same validity as a paper one, and you don't have to
touch in (or go through any extra non-transactional hoops) with a
paper one to avoid a penalty fare.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:31:23 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

Oh, of course. And it's no problem doing that on a straight bus, but
being liable to a penalty fare?

No, that is silly. Like you, I would look forward to the first court
case.


I did wonder when it was discussed previously whether this was to
prepare for debendification.

Could be. Certainly in the central area, everyone boarding a bus
needs some form of advance authority, be it a ticket from the machine
at the stop, an Oyster card or a (Freedom etc.) pass.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

In article ,
lid (Ivor The Engine) wrote:

Could be. Certainly in the central area, everyone boarding a bus
needs some form of advance authority, be it a ticket from the machine
at the stop, an Oyster card or a (Freedom etc.) pass.

When will they be able to read national bus passes?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:
On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:



On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything..)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare..

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 21 Feb, 13:53, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 21, 8:49*am, JS wrote:



On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:

System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones
of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge.

The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey,
the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not
covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e.
Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at
Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from
Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be
that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where
your Travelcard is valid.

So, I have a Z3-4 on myOystercard.
I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station.
What should I be charged for?
A Z1-2?
A Z5-G?
TfL fare scale?
NR fare scale?
Through fare scale?
Hence the max fare charge

Ah, what I managed to edit out of my example was the
destination...which was supposed to be Stanmore.

However, in your example, if you didn't touch in, but touched out in
z4 with a z4 Travelcard you're not charged anything, which isn't the
point I was making. I was referring to extending your journey out of
your zones without touching in. In that specific scenario, I think
charging from the validity of your zones is quite reasonable, as any
loss should be minimal.

Fine
I have a Z3-4 Travelcard
I don't touch in
I touch out in zone 1
What should I be charged?
Z1-2?
Z1-2 plus 5-G (or 1-G if that is less)?
Tfl?
NR?
through?
Peak?
Off-Peak?

Hence the standard max fare charges
:-)

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:



On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:



On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

Having sufficient payg on your card is not equivalent to a valid
ticket
If you want to use some or all of your payg balance to extend your
journey beyond the zones of your Travelcard (but within the LFZ + G)
on National Rail you can do so, but you must:
- set an OEP
- touch in
You will then pay a mixed travel maximum Oyster fare
You now have a valid ticket for travel beyond the zones of your
Travelcard on National Rail (+G)

The logic is entirely sound

Whether it has been
- advertised enough
- explained to the public
- made practicable by enabling all self-service machines at all
stations
is an entirely different matter
is

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:





On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:56, MIG wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:



On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. *Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

So they'd rather prevent people from paying their fare so that they
can catch them out? *That is only physically possible if they are
touching out.

I remain disgusted by the general attitude of the railways that it's
acceptable to minimise opportunities to pay the correct fares and put
all the resources into catching people out.

How the hell can the railways compete with roads when they criminalise
rail travel in this way? *I **** on them. *I am really f*cking
disgusted with everything that's coming out of the introduction ofOysteron NR. *Too angry to contribute to any more discussion (a great
relief I expect).

I think you are attributing intent where there is none.
A dozen separate companies
Oyster run by a private consortium on TfL's behalf
hundreds of ticketing agreements
millions of daily users
incompetence
Prestige not able to cope with the complexity of fares
etc etc
in the scheme of things though?
not really life and death stuff
:-)

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:56, MIG wrote:
On 22 Feb, 09:36, JS wrote:



On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:

On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:

On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.
Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

You will find that C2C have been enforcing the OEP requirement when
customer touch out at Grays. *Rather than deduct the extension fare,
the gates can be configured to alert the staff.

So they'd rather prevent people from paying their fare so that they
can catch them out? *That is only physically possible if they are
touching out.

I remain disgusted by the general attitude of the railways that it's
acceptable to minimise opportunities to pay the correct fares and put
all the resources into catching people out.

How the hell can the railways compete with roads when they criminalise
rail travel in this way? *I **** on them. *I am really f*cking
disgusted with everything that's coming out of the introduction ofOysteron NR. *Too angry to contribute to any more discussion (a great
relief I expect).


Pretty sure the OEP penalty fares will hasten the abandonment of the
whole idea - have faith

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:41:23 -0800 (PST) someone who may be JS
wrote this:-

If you want to use some or all of your payg balance to extend your
journey beyond the zones of your Travelcard (but within the LFZ + G)
on National Rail you can do so, but you must:
- set an OEP
- touch in
You will then pay a mixed travel maximum Oyster fare
You now have a valid ticket for travel beyond the zones of your
Travelcard on National Rail (+G)

The logic is entirely sound

Not in the least.

The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram, on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:28, JS wrote:
On 21 Feb, 12:01, Andy wrote:





On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:

On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:

On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote:

On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote:

On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:

It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford
on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that
he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered
a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.)

If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford
Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.
Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to
pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top.

Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs,
given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster
PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south
thereof.

I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not
being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster
card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at
Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on.

OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a
secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with
you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London
Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs.
--
Paul C

IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record
it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the
Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with
a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare.

Not any more.
The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed
travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard
holding any valid Travelcard)
At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be
£4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster
single fare times.
(The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most
others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare.
Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate
Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30)

Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I
rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it
somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a
z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for!

Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is
how it is:

payg only on an adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public
holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg
before 2 Jan) Z1-6Oystersingle fares

Any valid Travelcard on adult rateOystercard:
max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak
They are equivalent to the through Z1-4Oystersingle fares

Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs

I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rateOystercard
I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR
I have £10 payg balance
It is Saturday

1) No OEP set before touching in
Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge
Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR
only Off-Peak extension
I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves
Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London
Victoria.

Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now
paid the correct fare.

I'm afraid you are.
You did not have a valid ticket before you travelled.

Once you have touched out, you have paid the correct fare and so no
penalty fare can be charged. Touching out usually also means that you
have left the area where a penalty fare can be charged. I would be
interested if you have a real life example of someone being charged a
penalty fare in such circumstances.

Penalty fares are entirely separate from the journey fare, as those of
you unlucky enough to have been issue one will know. *The revenue
inspector is entitled to
- issue a penalty fare
- require payment of the fare to the next station (or some other
specified minimum fare)

The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:24:49 -0800 (PST)
Andy wrote:
The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.

B2003

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:42:17 +0000, David Hansen
wrote:

The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram, on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.

Trains for which you don't have a valid ticket, unless you buy one.
Which by this delivery system means adding it electronically to your
card. Or. as people with season tickets would do elsewhere in the UK,
going to a station[1] and buying a paper ticket for the part of the
journey not covered.

[1] or online, or on train, etc etc.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 11:39, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:24:49 -0800 (PST)

Andy wrote:
The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.


That's not a penalty fare though, that's an uncompleted journey.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Feb 22, 11:39*am, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:24:49 -0800 (PST)

Andy wrote:
The penalty fare becomes the journey fare (to the next stop at least)
it is certainly not entirely separate. If it was separate, it would be
called a fine, not a fare.

If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.

If one is purely using PAYG, what happens is that an 'entry charge' is
taken when one touches-in, and the appropriate amount is refunded so
the passenger ends up paying for the correct fare.

If one is using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard and intending
to travel outside the zones covered by that Travelcard, *and* one sets
an OEP as is notionally required by the rules [1], then again an
'entry charge' is deducted when one touches-in and the appropriate
amount is refunded when one touches out.

The charge, fine, whatever you want to call it is thus levied
immediately, it's not taken the next day or whenever the next time the
passenger travels.

-----
[1] If one is diligent enough, understands the rules enough, and is
able to actually find somewhere where an OEP can be set.
(And yes I think the whole thing is silly, and if I'm in a situation
where an OEP is supposedly required but nonetheless can't get one
easily I'd happily travel anyway, and happily and politely tell any
inspector I encounter en route to get stuffed should they wish to
issue a PF as a result.)

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Feb 22, 11:44*am, Ivor The Engine
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:42:17 +0000, David Hansen

wrote:
The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram, on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.

Trains for which you don't have a valid ticket, unless you buy one.
Which by this delivery system means adding it electronically to your
card. *Or. as people with season tickets would do elsewhere in the UK,
going to a station[1] and buying a paper ticket for the part of the
journey not covered.

[1] or online, or on train, etc etc. *

The system is complex (although the way it functions is not actually
really that complicated), and I suspect from David's comments that he
doesn't have a full appreciation of how it all fits together - that's
not to have a go at him, merely agreeing with you that in this
instance his interjection is, er, wrong.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:07:18 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

The system is complex (although the way it functions is not actually
really that complicated), and I suspect from David's comments that he
doesn't have a full appreciation of how it all fits together

How it all fits together is irrelevant to the logic which, from the
point of view of the passenger, is as I described.

Presumably that is why, in this or another thread, someone has
mentioned how few people jump through the hoops they are supposed to
jump through in order to use this gadget on some trains, but not
others. Some may decide that they are all trying to cheat the
railways out of money, but I imagine that only a small proportion
are trying to do this and most are simply doing what has become
natural for them to do.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Feb 22, 12:28*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:07:18 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

The system is complex (although the way it functions is not actually
really that complicated), and I suspect from David's comments that he
doesn't have a full appreciation of how it all fits together

How it all fits together is irrelevant to the logic which, from the
point of view of the passenger, is as I described.

Presumably that is why, in this or another thread, someone has
mentioned how few people jump through the hoops they are supposed to
jump through in order to use this gadget on some trains, but not
others. Some may decide that they are all trying to cheat the
railways out of money, but I imagine that only a small proportion
are trying to do this and most are simply doing what has become
natural for them to do.

It's not about this being a (notional) requirement for "some trains" -
it's not about any specific trains or routes having a special
requirement, it's about what a passenger who holds a zonal season
ticket (a Travelcard) is supposed to do when they are starting from
somewhere where their season ticket is valid, but then travelling out
of the area covered by that season ticket to a destination that's
nonetheless within the PAYG-area (which is the London Fare zones plus
Watford Junction and some c2c stations to the east of London). In such
cases a passenger supposedly has to get an OEP before they start their
journey.

Therefore the rail routes to which this supposed requirement applies
are entirely dependent on what zones are covered by any one individual
passenger's season Travelcard.

And no, I'm not defending it, it's all rather daft and will I think
fall flat in its arse before too long.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:54:46 -0800 (PST)
Andy wrote:
If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.


That's not a penalty fare though, that's an uncompleted journey.

And given you get charged maximum fare the difference is...?

B2003

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:01:42 -0800 (PST)
Mizter T wrote:
The charge, fine, whatever you want to call it is thus levied
immediately, it's not taken the next day or whenever the next time the
passenger travels.

The end result is what matters , not the specifics of how the system works.
If you don't touch out you end up out of pocket.

B2003

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:41:51 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

It's not about this being a (notional) requirement for "some trains" -
it's not about any specific trains or routes having a special
requirement, it's about what a passenger who holds a zonal season
ticket (a Travelcard) is supposed to do when they are starting from
somewhere where their season ticket is valid, but then travelling out
of the area covered by that season ticket to a destination that's
nonetheless within the PAYG-area

So, if a passenger has one of these season tickets, say for zones 1
and 2, on their Oyster contraption they are supposed to do something
more than touch it on the yellow gadgets at each end if they get on
the train at say Oxford Circus and get off at say
Harrow-on-the-Hill, if they go via Baker Street? Sounds unlikely to
me.

If I understand it correctly were they to make the same journey via
Marylebone they would need to do something different? Illogical, or
as you say rather daft.






--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 04:25:28PM +0000, Ivor The Engine wrote:
On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 08:12:19 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:
However, the bus bit is completely bonkers, seeing as you can't extend
a bus journey beyond the travelcard availability.
I can see the point (on non-bendy buses) to verify everyone has a
valid ticket. It's easier for the driver to listen for a beeb than
checking a photocard flashed very quickly.

Of course, he has to be able to do that anyway for paper travelcards.
Not that they ever bother.

--
David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world

Graecum est; non legitur

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 12:46, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 03:54:46 -0800 (PST)

Andy wrote:
If thats the case then how come you can get a penalty "fare" next time
you touch in if you forgot to touch out? I don't know of many people who
pay a fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before.

Its a fine.

That's not a penalty fare though, that's an uncompleted journey.

And given you get charged maximum fare the difference is...?


The difference being that, for TfL, the penalty fare is £50 (reduced
to £25 if paid within 21 days); the maximum Oyster fare is
considerably less.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22 Feb, 09:33, JS wrote:
Fine
I have a Z3-4 Travelcard
I don't touch in
I touch out in zone 1
What should I be charged?
Z1-2?
Z1-2 plus 5-G (or 1-G if that is less)?
Tfl?
NR?
through?
Peak?
Off-Peak?

Hence the standard max fare charges
:-)

;)

Personally, as I said before, I would say the current max fare charge,
less the z34 fare. Btw, where are these fares shown? I've spent the
last 10 minutes looking for them for example-generating...but can't
find them anywhere!

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Feb 22, 1:01*pm, David Hansen
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:41:51 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:-

It's not about this being a (notional) requirement for "some trains" -
it's not about any specific trains or routes having a special
requirement, it's about what a passenger who holds a zonal season
ticket (a Travelcard) is supposed to do when they are starting from
somewhere where their season ticket is valid, but then travelling out
of the area covered by that season ticket to a destination that's
nonetheless within the PAYG-area

So, if a passenger has one of these season tickets, say for zones 1
and 2, on their Oyster contraption they are supposed to do something
more than touch it on the yellow gadgets at each end if they get on
the train at say Oxford Circus and get off at say
Harrow-on-the-Hill, if they go via Baker Street? Sounds unlikely to
me.

If I understand it correctly were they to make the same journey via
Marylebone they would need to do something different? Illogical, or
as you say rather daft.

Ok, yeah, there is a difference between LU and NR trains, so in that
context your comment about "some trains" is quite valid (when those
"some trains" equate to NR trains and routes) - my apologies.

As you say, technically speaking if one was to go via Marylebone and
NR/ Chiltern then an OEP would be required.

(Given that PAYG was accepted on all Chiltern routes within the zones
before 2010, I have my doubts as to whether Chiltern would really be
too bothered about anyone doing that though.

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Feb 22, 12:49*pm, wrote:

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 04:01:42 -0800 (PST)
Mizter T wrote:
The charge, fine, whatever you want to call it is thus levied
immediately, it's not taken the next day or whenever the next time the
passenger travels.

The end result is what matters , not the specifics of how the system works.
If you don't touch out you end up out of pocket.

Yes - I just saw the sentence "I don't know of many people who pay a
fare for a journey they made the previous day or even weeks before"
and wanted to clarify how the system works. (Though if a card goes
into a negative balance I suppose you could say that person was paying
for it the next time they topped up.)

Touch-out is basically a requirement if there are to be differential
fares - a flat fare (or at least there only being a single fare for
journeys starting from any station) would negate the need for touch-
out, but it seems like a rather unlikely thing to happen. If it did
ever happen, it would only be any good if it was set at a reasonable
level - too high and it would discourage use for shorter journeys. It
would also need a lot more subsidy in order to make it workable. It
would also have the potential to radically shift journey patterns and
demand in quite a big way.

(TfL could even describe the Oyster PAYG £6.50 'entry charge' as a
"flat fare", with "discounted fares" available to those who then touch-
out - a bit similar to the £10 or whatever "standard fare" that bus
companies have outside London - but if TfL were to do this it would
probably be deemed by most people as being somewhat disingenuous.)

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 05:57:35 -0800 (PST)
Mizter T wrote:
Touch-out is basically a requirement if there are to be differential
fares - a flat fare (or at least there only being a single fare for
journeys starting from any station) would negate the need for touch-
out, but it seems like a rather unlikely thing to happen. If it did

Probably is unlikely , though given there's flat fares on the buses now the
arguments against it not working on the underground seem a bit forced.

would also need a lot more subsidy in order to make it workable. It
would also have the potential to radically shift journey patterns and
demand in quite a big way.

Maybe, but I doubt many people use the tube for short journeys (say 1 or 2
stops) anyway so even if it did discourage short journeys I doubt it would
have much impact on revenue. But if longer journeys became cheaper especially
at weekends LU could well find it ends up earning more through a flat fare
scheme.

B2003

LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
 

On 22/02/2010 10:42, David Hansen wrote:
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 01:41:23 -0800 (PST) someone who may be JS
wrote this:-

If you want to use some or all of your payg balance to extend your
journey beyond the zones of your Travelcard (but within the LFZ + G)
on National Rail you can do so, but you must:
- set an OEP
- touch in
You will then pay a mixed travel maximum Oyster fare
You now have a valid ticket for travel beyond the zones of your
Travelcard on National Rail (+G)

The logic is entirely sound

Not in the least.

The logic is that on a bus or tram one touches the yellow pad on
entering a bus or tram,

No, you touch the yellow pad as you arrive (on
foot/wheelchair/Brompton/parachute) at the stop from which you will
catch the tram, like with trains. The pads are on the platform, not on
the trams, apparently because of concerns that no-one would touch in
until they saw the inspectors get on. Which, to be fair, is exactly what
/would/ happen.

on a train one touches the yellow pad on
entering and leaving the railway. Too complicated already, but at
least understandable.

Then something else is added for using some trains. Illogical.








--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK