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LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 14 Feb, 12:51, MIG wrote:
On 14 Feb, 11:39, (Neil Williams) wrote: On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:35:41 -0000, "Mitch" x wrote: I commute every weekday to London and get about one ticket check a month, yes far less than Silverlink. Given you can walk thru a coupled 350 (unlike 321's) its dissapointing. Or realistic? When I was commuting on LM, you'd see the same faces each day, all of whom would hold a season ticket. *I expect fare dodging rates on early morning trains to London to be very low. *Probably higher off-peak. Neil I do quite a lot of LM journeys, mostly either off-peak or counter- peak, and I'd say that on-train checks are at least 90% for the journeys I do. *Given that those are the most likely times for evasion, they've probably got it covered. Funny it should happen now, but there was actually a group of RP staff on an LM train I was on, although my experience is of guards doing checks. I butted into a conversation because I mistakenly thought there was a case of OEPs being enforced, and my curiosity got the better of me. It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. (He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) I was doing something similar on a paper season, which was accepted instantly. The RP said that it had always been a rule that you had to touch in on NR and said something about Oyster being a "different product". He said that if you didn't touch in, there was no way of proving where you started your journey. I said that with my paper travelcard I had no way of proving anything either. He sort of agreed and shrugged. I said, but what if you had a season on Oyster and were coming into the zones from elsewhere? He said that the train has to stop there and you have to touch in. I directed him to sections 9 and 19 of the NRCoC (19 about combination of tickets, where one of them is a season and 9 about electronic tickets having exactly the same validity as paper tickets). In this case, I am so sure that he was wrong, and possibly confused by the whole OEP issue, that I am not going to bang on about Oyster having rules just for the sake of being able to get you for breaking the rules. Oyster cannot change the NRCoC. So this must be a case of LM either making up its own rules or having staff training issues. No one was actually PFed in this case, but if that's the rule that LM staff are applying, then I guess they could be. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote:
It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Neil |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil Williams wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Neil I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote:
On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Neil I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that wasn't the issue in this case. He was concerned about the lack of touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about proving the start of the journey, not the end of it. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:34:31 -0800 (PST) someone who may be MIG
wrote this:- I directed him to sections 9 and 19 of the NRCoC (19 about combination of tickets, where one of them is a season and 9 about electronic tickets having exactly the same validity as paper tickets). The most generous interpretation to put on the situation is that this has been filed in the "too difficult" tray. Alternatively, by saying that one must always use the pad thing http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/6369.aspx then they are disadvantaging users of electronic tickets compared to paper ones. I doubt if they want this to become well known. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54 |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. Watford Jn is of course outside the zones because LM want to retain control for pricing the fares from there. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about proving the start of the journey, not the end of it. Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf ---quote--- 3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving from; and at the end of your journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where needed). 3.8 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket (or tickets) loaded on to it and wish to start your journey from, or travel to, a destination outside the availability of your Travelcard season ticket, or on a route where your season ticket is not valid, you must purchase a ticket for your journey. However, if your journey begins or ends at a station within the London National Rail Pay As You Go area, you can follow the instructions set out in 3.18 and 3.19 provided you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card to pay for the additional journey(s). Failure to either purchase a ticket or follow the instructions laid out in 3.18 and 3.19 may mean you have to pay a Penalty Fare and/or render you liable to prosecution. ---/quote--- Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6 to 3.8. Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement. Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR). I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed ;) |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 1:20*pm, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote: [snip] I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about proving the start of the journey, not the end of it. Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf [snip quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8] Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6 to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement. Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR). I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed ;) I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too, but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of it (Watford Jn). |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 13:20, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 10:40, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about proving the start of the journey, not the end of it. Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF):http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-... ---quote--- 3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving from; and at the end of your journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where needed). 3.8 If you are using an Oyster card with a Travelcard season ticket (or tickets) loaded on to it and wish to start your journey from, or travel to, a destination outside the availability of your Travelcard season ticket, or on a route where your season ticket is not valid, you must purchase a ticket for your journey. However, if your journey begins or ends at a station within the London National Rail Pay As You Go area, you can follow the instructions set out in 3.18 and 3.19 provided you have sufficient pay as you go credit on your Oyster card to pay for the additional journey(s). Failure to either purchase a ticket or follow the instructions laid out in 3.18 and 3.19 may mean you have to pay a Penalty Fare and/or render you liable to prosecution. ---/quote--- Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6 to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement. Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR). I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed ;) If having to touch in with Oyster travelcards really was strictly enforced, then there are two issues. Firstly, it would be a rule invented purely for the purpose of penalising people for breaking a rule, when no fares are being evaded. I look forward to seeing such things tested in court. Secondly, it would change the NRCoC, and I don't see how TfL or any other operator can do that. Specifically, it would render a season ticket invalid if stored on Oyster and used in combination with another ticket from outside of its validity. So, despite my many misgivings about Oyster, I will be more charitable than you and stick with the assumption that the exhortations to touch in are purely practical, to keep people in the habit of doing so, in case of problems in the situations when they need to. And let's face it: until someone comes up with a definition of "journey", none of the TfL stuff has any meaning at all. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:20*pm, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote: [snip] I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about proving the start of the journey, not the end of it. Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-... [snip quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8] Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6 to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement. Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR). I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed ;) I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too, but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of it (Watford Jn). That's what I originally assumed, hence my interest. But as I said to Neil, this led to a conversation where LM staff insisted that you'd have to get off and touch in if you had a season ticket stored on Oyster and were travelling from outside. Total confusion reigns. It may well have been an OEP situation, but he implied that it wasn't and that the season was valid for the journey. Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? I think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that were said. I wonder if the conversation would have been different on a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there? |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote: [big snip] I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too, but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of it (Watford Jn). That's what I originally assumed, hence my interest. *But as I said to Neil, this led to a conversation where LM staff insisted that you'd have to get off and touch in if you had a season ticket stored on Oyster and were travelling from outside. *Total confusion reigns. It may well have been an OEP situation, but he implied that it wasn't and that the season was valid for the journey. Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? *I think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that were said. *I wonder if the conversation would have been different on a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there? No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 3:22*pm, Mizter T wrote:
No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons. So the only valid way to do it is to use PAYG to extend the Travelcard (unless he also held a paper extension), and the only valid way to do that is to touch in. Thus the RPI was correct and a PF could legitimately have been charged, but he used the wrong justification for being correct. Neil |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 14:22, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote: [big snip] I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too, but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of it (Watford Jn). That's what I originally assumed, hence my interest. *But as I said to Neil, this led to a conversation where LM staff insisted that you'd have to get off and touch in if you had a season ticket stored on Oyster and were travelling from outside. *Total confusion reigns. It may well have been an OEP situation, but he implied that it wasn't and that the season was valid for the journey. Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? *I think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that were said. *I wonder if the conversation would have been different on a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there? No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons. You can from most Oyster enabled ticket machines. On National Rail machines it is referred to as Zone 10 (with no mention of Zone W or Watford Junction) |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 1:50*pm, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 13:20, Mizter T wrote: [snip] Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-.... [snip verbatim quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8] Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6 to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement. Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR). I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed ;) If having to touch in with Oyster travelcards really was strictly enforced, then there are two issues. Firstly, it would be a rule invented purely for the purpose of penalising people for breaking a rule, when no fares are being evaded. *I look forward to seeing such things tested in court. Secondly, it would change the NRCoC, and I don't see how TfL or any other operator can do that. *Specifically, it would render a season ticket invalid if stored on Oyster and used in combination with another ticket from outside of its validity. I suppose they might say that's covered by this in clause 3.6: "You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making." - the Travelcard being valid as a result of its combination with another ticket. The NRCoC does also contain a reference to the separate conditions that apply to electronic tickets (in clause A.1). If the NRCoC and conditions that apply to an electronic ticket say different things, there doesn't appear to be anything which grants either of them primacy over the other. Note that I'm absolutely not saying that I think TfL has any intention to restrict the use of Travelcards on Oyster in combination with other tickets for journeys beyond the zonal validity of that Travelcard. So, despite my many misgivings about Oyster, I will be more charitable than you and stick with the assumption that the exhortations to touch in are purely practical, to keep people in the habit of doing so, in case of problems in the situations when they need to. I don't quite get where your coming from re the "charitable" comment? I merely referred to what's actually stated in the conditions of use of Oyster on NR. FWIW, I agree that the 'always touch-in & touch-out' message is indeed practical, but technically speaking it is backed up by the Oyster conditions of use (both on NR and TfL services), which furthermore do not preclude combining Travelcards on Oyster with other tickets. OK, there is a bit of a muddle where a passenger combines a season Travelcard with a paper ticket for travel within the zones, i.e. in such cases they actively shouldn't touch in/out at a station where they are using that paper ticket. However I doubt too many people will combine say a zone 1&2 Travelcard season with a paper Day Travelcard for zones 2-6, or a paper rail-only season, or a paper extension fare - w.r.t. the latter, I suppose Gold Card holders might well do so, given that the GC discounted fare is possibly less than the Oyster PAYG fare for the extension, and I suppose Network Railcard holders could too (weekends only because of the minimum fare), and ultra- diligent pax who couldn't get hold of an OEP before travel because the ticket office or ticket machines didn't offer them (but in these cases the ticket office clerk seems to just tell pax that it's not a problem and to go-ahead and travel anyway). Most pax with Travelcards loaded on Oyster who are extending journeys outside the zonal validity of their Travelcard, but nonetheless to destinations within the zones, will just use Oyster PAYG to automagically pay the extension fare (with or without an OEP). And let's face it: until someone comes up with a definition of "journey", none of the TfL stuff has any meaning at all. Any RPI that sought to PF someone with a Travelcard on Oyster for not touching-in when they're within their zonal validity would be a moron. They would technically be within their rights to ask the pax to touch- in next time though, I suppose. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 2:44*pm, Matthew Dickinson wrote: On 16 Feb, 14:22, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 1:59*pm, MIG wrote: [snip] Can one get a season to Watford Junction stored on Oyster anyway? *I think that would settle that point, but not explain the things that were said. *I wonder if the conversation would have been different on a journey to Harrow and Wealdstone on a train that stopped there? No, I'm 99.9% sure one can't - rail-only seasons aren't available on Oyster, nor are outboundary Travelcard seasons. You can from most Oyster enabled ticket machines. On National Rail machines it is referred to as Zone 10 (with no mention of Zone W or Watford Junction) OK, well perhaps I'm 99.9% wrong! I recall seeing zone 10 mentioned now on an NR ticket machine, I think I pondered at the time whether it was just a shoddy implementation. Well, it is shoddy implementation, in that how the hell is a passenger supposed to know that zone 10 means Watford Junction? And does it mean Grays (aka "zone G") as well? |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:20:25 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T
wrote this:- Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf The argument is whether these can have any effect, as they conflict with National Rail conditions which have already been referred to in this discussion. -- David Hansen, Edinburgh I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54 |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 10:34*am, MIG wrote: [snip] Funny it should happen now, but there was actually a group of RP staff on an LM train I was on, although my experience is of guards doing checks. I butted into a conversation because I mistakenly thought there was a case of OEPs being enforced, and my curiosity got the better of me. It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) I was doing something similar on a paper season, which was accepted instantly. The RP said that it had always been a rule that you had to touch in on NR and said something about Oyster being a "different product". *He said that if you didn't touch in, there was no way of proving where you started your journey. *I said that with my paper travelcard I had no way of proving anything either. *He sort of agreed and shrugged. I said, but what if you had a season on Oyster and were coming into the zones from elsewhere? *He said that the train has to stop there and you have to touch in. I directed him to sections 9 and 19 of the NRCoC (19 about combination of tickets, where one of them is a season and 9 about electronic tickets having exactly the same validity as paper tickets). In this case, I am so sure that he was wrong, and possibly confused by the whole OEP issue, that I am not going to bang on about Oyster having rules just for the sake of being able to get you for breaking the rules. *Oyster cannot change the NRCoC. So this must be a case of LM either making up its own rules or having staff training issues. *No one was actually PFed in this case, but if that's the rule that LM staff are applying, then I guess they could be. I've only just digested the above post and properly noticed the *crucial* bit - that's where the RPI says a passenger combining a paper ticket from outside the zones with a Travelcard loaded on Oyster would have to get off the train and touch-in there. He was of course *completely wrong*, as you quite rightly point out. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 2:58*pm, David Hansen wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:20:25 -0800 (PST) someone who may be Mizter T wrote this:- Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-... The argument is whether these can have any effect, as they conflict with National Rail conditions which have already been referred to in this discussion. I'd argue that they actually don't conflict - specifically see this wording: "You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making." Also, if one is using a Travelcard in combination with a paper ticket, then arguably one is not using an Oyster card at that end of the journey anyway. (Conceptually this all gets a bit muddled as one would be using a paper ticket combined with a Travelcard stored on Oyster!) It's clear that TfL has no intention of stopping people from combining Travelcards held on Oyster with paper tickets for journeys beyond the zonal validity. Inevitably the inherent presumption is that those using a Travelcard loaded on Oyster who wish to travel beyond the zonal validity of said Travelcard but still within the London zones will make use of Oyster's ability to combine Travelcard and PAYG in order to automatically pay the extension fare. The one significant group of people who may have other ideas is Gold Card Travelcard holders (i.e. annual Travelcard holders), who are entitled to a third off fares (like a Railcard) but cannot have this discount entitlement activated on their Oyster card (unlike holders of Railcards, except the Network Railcard and Family & Friends Railcard - the latter at least being an understandable omission). As to why this is the case, you would have to ask ATOC and TfL! Also, just to make life interesting, the NRCoC does also mention that usage of electronic tickets is subject to their own conditions of issue and use! If the two sets of conditions (NR and electronic ticket) were really in conflict, which would have primacy is an interesting question. One rather suspects that those parties involved will work to avoid that situation arising. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
It's clear that TfL has no intention of stopping people from combining Travelcards held on Oyster with paper tickets for journeys beyond the zonal validity. Inevitably the inherent presumption is that those using a Travelcard loaded on Oyster who wish to travel beyond the zonal validity of said Travelcard but still within the London zones will make use of Oyster's ability to combine Travelcard and PAYG in order to automatically pay the extension fare. The one significant group of people who may have other ideas is Gold Card Travelcard holders (i.e. annual Travelcard holders), who are entitled to a third off fares (like a Railcard) but cannot have this discount entitlement activated on their Oyster card (unlike holders of Railcards, except the Network Railcard and Family & Friends Railcard - the latter at least being an understandable omission). As to why this is the case, you would have to ask ATOC and TfL! Also, just to make life interesting, the NRCoC does also mention that usage of electronic tickets is subject to their own conditions of issue and use! If the two sets of conditions (NR and electronic ticket) were really in conflict, which would have primacy is an interesting question. One rather suspects that those parties involved will work to avoid that situation arising. London Travelwatch are to discuss some of this at the February Fares & Ticketing meeting. The documents include a list of gated and ungated stations. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/...ent.php?id=687 |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 15:57, Matthew Dickinson
wrote: It's clear that TfL has no intention of stopping people from combining Travelcards held on Oyster with paper tickets for journeys beyond the zonal validity. Inevitably the inherent presumption is that those using a Travelcard loaded on Oyster who wish to travel beyond the zonal validity of said Travelcard but still within the London zones will make use of Oyster's ability to combine Travelcard and PAYG in order to automatically pay the extension fare. The one significant group of people who may have other ideas is Gold Card Travelcard holders (i.e. annual Travelcard holders), who are entitled to a third off fares (like a Railcard) but cannot have this discount entitlement activated on their Oyster card (unlike holders of Railcards, except the Network Railcard and Family & Friends Railcard - the latter at least being an understandable omission). As to why this is the case, you would have to ask ATOC and TfL! Also, just to make life interesting, the NRCoC does also mention that usage of electronic tickets is subject to their own conditions of issue and use! If the two sets of conditions (NR and electronic ticket) were really in conflict, which would have primacy is an interesting question. One rather suspects that those parties involved will work to avoid that situation arising. London Travelwatch are to discuss some of this at the February Fares & Ticketing meeting. The documents include a list of gated and ungated stations. http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/...ent.php?id=687 I can't actually see where the NRCoC says that there are different conditions for electronic tickets. There is this bit "Wherever reference is made in these Conditions to information about restrictions, stations, routes and period of validity being shown on tickets, this information will not be shown on Smartcards and may not be displayed on the cards or devices in (ii) to (v) of this Condition, for any Electronic Tickets they contain. However, any restrictions or other terms of use (including these Conditions where applicable) will still apply. You can get details of restrictions and terms of use from the seller of the Electronic Ticket or Electronic Funds." But I took that to mean that the conditions which apply to validity of tickets apply to the tickets stored electronically, and other conditions which apply to the use of stored credit on a particular medium also apply, but not that they might contradict each other. The seller of electronic tickets would have to provide both the conditions which apply to tickets and the conditions which apply to the use of electronic funds. Or have I missed something? |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 13:29, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:20*pm, Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 11:49*am, MIG wrote: On 16 Feb, 11:13, MIG wrote: [snip] I could have misheard the zones, and originally thought it was an OEP issue (interesting in itself), but it was the other things that were said about season tickets on Oyster that were worrying. And I should have said, I initially perked up, all excited, saying "is this about OEPs actually being enforced?", and he was clear that that wasn't the issue in this case. *He was concerned about the lack of touch in at Euston, not the lack of OEP, and was concerned about proving the start of the journey, not the end of it. Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-of-carriage-... [snip quote of clauses 3.6 and 3.8] Not sure what happened to clause 3.7, but it skips straight from 3.6 to 3.8. *Clauses 3.18 and 3.19 refer to the OEP arrangement. Additionally, in the TfL conditions of carriage, there isn't a specific exemption that allows holders of Travelcards (and Bus Passes where applicable) loaded on Oyster not to touch-in - in practice, on the DLR, bendy buses and Tramlink this isn't enforced (as long as one is remaining in the zones covered on the DLR). I await a sermon on how this all means Boundary Zone fares for inboundary Travelcards are inevitably doomed ;) I should add that I don't think TOC RPIs should go around zealously enforcing this - if the Travelcard is valid between the origin station and destination station then I reckon that should be deemed a-ok. If a passenger is travelling outwith their zonal validity however then they do need to touch in (and notionally at least get hold of an OEP too, but regardless of that they should touch in) - it sounds as though the passenger in question didn't do so, and they were making a journey from within their Travelcard's zonal validity (Euston) to outside of it (Watford Jn). Note that the conditions of carriage only say you SHOULD touch in and out with a travelcard on Oyster when you are using it within its zones. If using it to travel into or out of the zones, the wording then becomes MUST. The only time penalty fares are mentioned is for the OEPs needed for traveling beyond the validity (in clause 3.19). Indeed section 7 says that you won't be charged a penalty fare if carrying an Oystercard with a valid travelcard season, with no mention of touching in or out. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. Of course, Watford Junction, along with Bushey and Harrow & Wealdstone, show some of the stupidity of the OEPs, as you don't need them if travelling on the London Overground services. If LO, which is still a National Rail operator even if the concession is awarded differently, can opt out of the OEPs, is there any reason why London Midland can't ? I also wonder what the situation on the ground would be with Chiltern to / from Amersham, as you may not know in advance whether you'll be catching a Chiltern or Met line service, especially if changing at Harrow-on-the-Hill. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 18:27, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. The thing is that whether or not I misunderstood that bit and it was really 1 - 10, the RPI seemed to think it was valid other than not having been touched in. Seems to me he should at least have charged an extension fare if he thought it wasn't. It wouldn't have been in the punter's interest to get a maximum fare when touching out, nor was that possibility mentioned. The whole thing seems very confused. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. And I was delighted to think I had an OEP enforcement story to report. I wasn't expecting to get into a debate when it turned out not to be that. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
Paul Corfield wrote
I note also that the DfT penalise Southern if they do not provide staffing 95% of the time to keep gates in service. I wonder how they enforce that bit of the franchise agreement? Maybe the gate phones home on every change of state or uploads a summary to the statistics database every day and Southern is required to pass them on to the DfT ? More to the point, 95% of what time? I assume Southern has lots of stations where no trains stops between 1am and 4am, which are closed on Sundays, with entrances that are not open all the hours that the station is open etc. I have previously noted that the instructions with some /Help/ terminals (with CCTV) appear to envisage their being used to keep gates "supervised" so that a station need not be have a member of staff on duty adjacent to each gateline. -- Mike D |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 10:09:59PM +0000, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
I have previously noted that the instructions with some /Help/ terminals (with CCTV) appear to envisage their being used to keep gates "supervised" so that a station need not be have a member of staff on duty adjacent to each gateline. I doubt that very much. The gate supervisor is there to make sure people can get out of the station if the gates break. It's easy to imagine situations which would break both the gates *and* the help terminal. Vandalism, for example. -- David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire THIS IS THE LANGUAGE POLICE PUT DOWN YOUR THESAURUS STEP AWAY FROM THE CLICHE |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. Not any more. The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare (maximum Oyster fare for any Oyster card holding any valid Travelcard) At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adult Oyster card, that would be £4.20 at Peak Oyster single fare times / £3.40 at Off-Peak Oyster single fare times. (The mixed travel maximum Oyster fare at all Z1-6 stations and most others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare. Similarly the maximum payg only Oyster fare is set at the appropriate Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30) |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote:
On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. Not any more. The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare (maximum Oyster fare for any Oyster card holding any valid Travelcard) At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adult Oyster card, *that would be £4.20 at Peak Oyster single fare times / £3.40 at Off-Peak Oyster single fare times. (The mixed travel maximum Oyster fare at all Z1-6 stations and most others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare. Similarly the maximum payg only Oyster fare is set at the appropriate Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30) Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for! |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote: On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored on Oyster was being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet accepted Oyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on the Oyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. Not any more. The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare (maximum Oyster fare for any Oyster card holding any valid Travelcard) At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adult Oyster card, *that would be £4.20 at Peak Oyster single fare times / £3.40 at Off-Peak Oyster single fare times. (The mixed travel maximum Oyster fare at all Z1-6 stations and most others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare. Similarly the maximum payg only Oyster fare is set at the appropriate Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30) Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for! System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge. Equally - the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare is deducted when touching in at a station outside the zones of your Travelcard. The system has no way of knowing whether you will end your journey within the zones of the Travelcard. Your question as to when this started has a long and complicated answer. Simply put, the 'benefit of the doubt' that was in place until late last year - whereby the assumed extension fare was deducted irrespective of a corresponding entry or exit touch at the other end of the journey - was never advertised. It was an interim measure until the mixed travel max fare could be implemented. The main obstacle, obviously, was the lack of Oyster validators and the majority of NR stations within the LFZ. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote:
System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge. The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey, the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e. Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where your Travelcard is valid. Equally - the mixed travel maximum Oyster fare is deducted when touching in at a station outside the zones of your Travelcard. The system has no way of knowing whether you will end your journey within the zones of the Travelcard. This is more reasonable, after all it's the start of a normal PAYG journey and you may as well keep it consistent. IMHO, it should still deduct the zones you have a Travelcard for though from what it deducts upon entry though - after all, you've already paid for them. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote: System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge. The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey, the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e. Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where your Travelcard is valid. So, I have a Z3-4 on my Oyster card. I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station. What should I be charged for? A Z1-2? A Z5-G? TfL fare scale? NR fare scale? Through fare scale? Hence the max fare charge |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie Thompson wrote:
On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote: On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone.. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. Not any more. The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard holding any valid Travelcard) At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be £4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster single fare times. (The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare. Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30) Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for! Let's be clear. Regardless of any other info you have read, this is how it is: payg only on an adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR I have £10 payg balance It is Saturday 1) No OEP set before touching in Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR only Off-Peak extension I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves Battersea Park. I remain liable even after touching out at London Victoria. 2) OEP set before touching in Touch in Battersea Park: £3.40 Off-Peak mixed travel maximum Oyster fare deducted from payg balance Touch out London Victoria: £1.90 "refunded" to payg balance. I have paid the correct £1.50 extension fare and complied with the Oyster on National Rail Conditions of Carriage. OEP set to off ("removed") 3) No OEP set before touching in No touch in at Battersea Park Touch out London Victoria: £3.40 deducted from payg balance I am liable to penalty fare / prosecution when the train leaves Battersea Park 4) OEP set before touching in No touch in Battersea Park Touch out London Victoria: £3.40 deducted from payg balance I am liable to penalty fare / prosecution when the train leaves Battersea Park OEP set to off Hope this is helpful |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
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LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 21 Feb, 08:49, JS wrote:
On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote: System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge. The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey, the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e. Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where your Travelcard is valid. So, I have a Z3-4 on my Oyster card. I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station. What should I be charged for? A Z1-2? A Z5-G? TfL fare scale? NR fare scale? Through fare scale? Hence the max fare charge You don't get charged anything in that situation. Nor should you be. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On 21 Feb, 09:16, JS wrote:
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote: On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. Not any more. The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard holding any valid Travelcard) At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be £4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster single fare times. (The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare. Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30) Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for! Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is how it is: payg only on an adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR I have £10 payg balance It is Saturday 1) No OEP set before touching in Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR only Off-Peak extension I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London Victoria. Where did you get this from? Look forward to seeing that one in court. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 21, 9:16*am, JS wrote:
On 18 Feb, 20:45, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 18, 5:59*pm, JS wrote: On 16 Feb, 20:56, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 16, 6:27*pm, Paul Corfield wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:04:35 -0800 (PST), Mizter T wrote: On Feb 16, 10:40*am, Neil *Williams wrote: On Feb 16, 11:34*am, MIG wrote: It turned out that a punter who was travelling from Euston to Watford on a zone 1 - 9 travelcard season stored onOysterwas being told that he was technically without a valid ticket because it hadn't registered a touch at Euston. *(He wasn't actually PFed or anything.) If it was a 1-9 Travelcard, the PFI was right, because Watford Junction is not in Zone 9, it's in a special non-Travelcard zone. Thus, he'd have had to register a touch in (and possibly an OEP?) to pay the PAYG amount that would be due on top. Correct. Not sure whether LM would be all that fussed about OEPs, given that they managed without them until January yet acceptedOyster PAYG for all possible journeys from Watford Jn and points south thereof. I think the entire issue in this debate is about the Z1-9 Travelcard not being valid at Watford Junction. Without an entry record on theOyster card then the passenger will be charged a maximum fare on exit at Watford as the system will be unable to calculate the add-on. OEPs are actually required now to Watford Junction so that could be a secondary issue in the "RPI vs passenger" debate. *I don't disagree with you about it working OK up to Jan 2010 but the rules changed and London Midland is a TOC so it's bound by the collective nonsense about OEPs. -- Paul C IIRC that's not strictly speaking true - if there is no entry record it is taken as being from the validity of the zones present on the Travelcard, surely? So a missing entry record on a Z12 Travelcard with a touch out at Stanmore would charge the z345 extension PAYG fare. Not any more. The touch out without a previous touch in would result in the mixed travel maximumOysterfare (maximumOysterfare for anyOystercard holding any valid Travelcard) At Stanmore, for a non-discounted adultOystercard, *that would be £4.20 at PeakOystersingle fare times / £3.40 at Off-PeakOyster single fare times. (The mixed travel maximumOysterfare at all Z1-6 stations and most others is derived from the corresponding Z1-4 through payg fare. Similarly the maximum payg onlyOysterfare is set at the appropriate Z1-6 through fare i.e. £6 / £4.30) Really? When did that start - I can't say I'd noticed it...but then I rarely start from an ungated station in z1 these days. I find it somewhat appalling that they'll deliberately overcharge you for a z123456 fare knowing full well that you have z12 already paid for! Let's be clear. *Regardless of any other info you have read, this is how it is: payg only on an adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £6 Peak (0630 - 0930 / 1600 - 1900 Mon - Fri excl public holidays) and £4.30 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through (TfL + NR that did not use payg before 2 Jan) Z1-6 Oyster single fares Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares Agreed between TfL and the other TOCs I have a valid 7 day Z2-4 Travelcard on my adult rate Oyster card I want to travel from Battersea Park to London Victoria NR I have £10 payg balance It is Saturday 1) No OEP set before touching in Touch in Battersea Park: 0 charge Touch out London Victoria: £1.50 deducted from payg balance - Z1 NR only Off-Peak extension I am liable for penalty fare / prosecution as soon as the train leaves Battersea Park. *I remain liable even after touching out at London Victoria. Rubbish, you are not liable even after touching out, as you have now paid the correct fare. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
On Feb 21, 8:49*am, JS wrote:
On 19 Feb, 20:59, Jamie *Thompson wrote: On Feb 19, 5:56*pm, JS wrote: System has no way of knowing whether journey was started within zones of Travelcard or beyond, hence the charge. The point I was making is that *wherever* you started your journey, the "maximuum" fare you could possibly pay is that of the zones not covered by your Travelcard, and IMHO that should be the penalty. I.e. Given a z12 Travelcard, if you actually started your journey at Canon's Park, but didn't touch in, being charged as having come from Willesden Green would be the penalty. The principle should always be that there should be no requirement to touch in within the zones where your Travelcard is valid. So, I have a Z3-4 on my Oyster card. I make a journey without touching in but touch out at a Z4 station. What should I be charged for? A Z1-2? A Z5-G? TfL fare scale? NR fare scale? Through fare scale? Hence the max fare charge Ah, what I managed to edit out of my example was the destination...which was supposed to be Stanmore. However, in your example, if you didn't touch in, but touched out in z4 with a z4 Travelcard you're not charged anything, which isn't the point I was making. I was referring to extending your journey out of your zones without touching in. In that specific scenario, I think charging from the validity of your zones is quite reasonable, as any loss should be minimal. |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote: wrote: In article , (JS) wrote: Any valid Travelcard on adult rate Oyster card: max fares are £4.20 Peak and £3.40 Off-Peak They are equivalent to the through Z1-4 Oyster single fares That doesn't seem to stack up with my off-peak fare from Vauxhall to Putney being half what I paid last year (£1.70 full price day single before, 85p on Oyster with Senior Railcard now). The only snag is a small delay so I pass the barrier after 19:00 rather than put a bike on a train only after that time. Those are the PAYG 'entry charges' for a travelcard enabled Oyster Card Colin, not the actual fares that would be charged after eventual touch out. That is how PAYG works normally - with a charge and refund . OIC. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
LM penalty fares scheme: New Oyster Bizarrity
Mizter T wrote:
Technically speaking touching in even when using an Oyster card loaded with a Travelcard that covers all the required zones is a requirement when using NR. See the "Oyster Conditions of Use on National rail services" (PDF): http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf ---quote--- 3.6 When you use a National Rail service, you should touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader before you start your journey, at the station you are leaving from; and at the end of your journey, when you arrive at your destinations station. You can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working provided that your Travelcard is valid for the journey you are making. You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where needed). And for those who are quibbling about 'should' rather than 'must' in the above, I just found the following in the new TfL Conditions of Carriage: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...f-carriage.pdf 6.6. Using a season ticket on your Oyster card 6.6.1. When you use Underground, London Overground and National Rail services, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) at both the start and the end of your journey. If the ticket gates at stations are open you must still touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader. You can use the Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card provided it is available and valid at the time you travel and any pay as you go balance on your Oyster card is not in debit. Should any pay as you go balance on your Oyster card be in debit, you must clear the debit before you use your Travelcard season ticket. Provided that the season ticket on your Oyster card is available and valid at the time you travel, you can still use your Oyster card at stations where there is no yellow card reader or if it is not working. You may be asked instead to show your Oyster card (and photocard where needed). and 6.6.7. When you use a bus, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader (see clause 6.8.) as you board the bus. If you board the bus without having touched your Oyster card on the yellow card reader or having paid a cash single fare, you may be liable to a Penalty fare or you may be prosecuted. Special arrangements apply if you are accompanying a wheelchair user (see clause 13.2.1.) and to users of double buggies (see clause 13.2.5.). If the bus has a conductor, when asked, you must touch your Oyster card on the yellow card reader on his/her ticket machine. If the yellow card reader on a bus or a conductor’s ticket machine is not working, you must show your Oyster card to the driver or conductor. |
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