On Feb 20, 9:16*pm, wrote:

(tedjrr) wrote:
Ie if I entered at (say) Bank with a U1/2 travelcard, travelled to
Woolwich DLR, but failed to tap-out I'd have been legal on my journey
but illegal when I failed to tap out. * If attempted the same from
Bank to Woolwich SouthEastern without collecting an OEP at London
Bridge, I'd be illegal from the R2/3 zone boundary, even though the
gates at Woolwich would debit me with a PAYG fare from the R2/3
boundary.

You are expected to get your OEP at Bank in the latter case, surely?

Bank or London Bridge, doesn't make any difference so long as the OEP
is on the card before the NR part of the journey. (And no, I don't
think loading an OEP onto the card mid-journey at London Bridge would
make any difference to the whole journey being treated and charged as
an LU+NR through journey.)

On 20 Feb, 22:32, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 20, 9:16*pm, wrote:

(tedjrr) wrote:
Ie if I entered at (say) Bank with a U1/2 travelcard, travelled to
Woolwich DLR, but failed to tap-out I'd have been legal on my journey
but illegal when I failed to tap out. * If attempted the same from
Bank to Woolwich SouthEastern without collecting an OEP at London
Bridge, I'd be illegal from the R2/3 zone boundary, even though the
gates at Woolwich would debit me with a PAYG fare from the R2/3
boundary.

You are expected to get your OEP at Bank in the latter case, surely?

Bank or London Bridge, doesn't make any difference so long as the OEP
is on the card before the NR part of the journey. (And no, I don't
think loading an OEP onto the card mid-journey at London Bridge would
make any difference to the whole journey being treated and charged as
an LU+NR through journey.)

It wouldn't need to be because you'd be on the travelcard-valid part
of the journey. The journey in question only begins when you touch in
at London Bridge NR.

In message
, at
14:16:51 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, MIG
remarked:

If course, it wouldn't matter if some people collected an OEP that they
didn't use (or would it... we should ask Alice, or at least the Mad
Hatter, about that).

Yes it would. *If you start a journey with an OEP on your card and
then don't touch out somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an
unresolved journey.

That wasn't my understanding from the long discussion a couple of weeks
ago. That would mean, or example, that if you collected an OEP and then
changed your mind about travelling, you'd be charged for a journey you
never did.

Only if you didn't touch out.

But I never touched in (if I decided not to travel at all).

Why bother to have a season ticket if you never travel?

Maybe the wires were down (as they are wont to be), and I decided to
make my way home independently.

You would probably carry on commuting etc, within the validity of your
season. While doing so, having an OEP on your card would "matter".

My next journey (the next day) would probably end by touching out inside
"my zones". Does that:

a) Cancel the OEP
b) Cause problems if I have an unused OEP.

If you always end up somewhere where
you can touch out, and remember to do so, you can leave the OEP safely
on the card till you finally touch out outside of your zones, but
inside the PAYG area.

That's a very different situation to "being charged for a journey if you
change your mind".

Where does that quote come from?

See the quote with five chevrons, above.

That's why there is supposed to be a facility for
getting the OEP removed.

Where can this facility be found?

LU ticket offices, apparently.

What do they look like? (The facility, not the office).

I said "If you
start a journey with an OEP on your card and then don't touch out
somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an unresolved journey."

ie you are guilty of not-touching-out.

There's no guilt about it. The majority of journeys using a season
ticket are within the validity of the season, so there is no PAYG
payable, and no need to worry about touching out. Touching out is
about calculating the PAYG fare; you don't need it if your whole
journey is covered by a season UNLESS you stick an OEP on your card.

But you do seem to be saying that if I don't touch out at all (eg my
scenario when all the trains are cancelled and I use some other way to
get home) then I will automatically get an unresolved journey.

But if you start a journey without an OEP, the travelcard simply lets
you through the gate. *Loads of journeys with travelcards on Oyster
involve getting through the gate at Charing Cross and then not
touching out anywhere.

I'm not sure why that's relevant.

It's totally relevant because it's a perfectly normal thing to do
which you won't get clobbered for without an OEP, but will get
clobbered for if you've got one, hence why it matters if you've got an
unused OEP on your card.

How many times does the OEP "clobber you". Once a day until you finally
manage to get it removed? Or does one clobberation also cancel the OEP?
And you seem to be saying that you'll get clobbered the day you added
it, so does that them mean all OEPs expire at midnight. If so, the
concept of an "un-used" one is a bit ephemeral.

What matters is whether the zone you're travelling to is "further out"
than your season.

Only if it's in the PAYG area, or else you'd need a normal extension
ticket

agreed.

and would have to make sure that you didn't have an OEP.

I'm still struggling to understand the algorithms, as you can see.

--
Roland Perry

In article ,
(Paul Scott) wrote:

wrote:

How would someone with a zones 3 and 4 only travelcard get from
Richmond (z4) to Wimbledon (z3) without going outside their zones?

With a walk at East Putney?

He postulated NR only I thought. You'd use that interchange to go direct
from East Putney to Fulham Broadway in his example otherwise.

Does raise a valid question about whether there should be an OSI at
the Putney stations, for PAYG users.

Indeed. That is a fair(-ish) question.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On 20 Feb, 22:32, Mizter T wrote:
On Feb 20, 9:16*pm, wrote:

(tedjrr) wrote:
Ie if I entered at (say) Bank with a U1/2 travelcard, travelled to
Woolwich DLR, but failed to tap-out I'd have been legal on my
journey but illegal when I failed to tap out. * If attempted the
same from Bank to Woolwich SouthEastern without collecting an OEP
at London Bridge, I'd be illegal from the R2/3 zone boundary, even
though the gates at Woolwich would debit me with a PAYG fare from
the R2/3 boundary.

You are expected to get your OEP at Bank in the latter case, surely?

Bank or London Bridge, doesn't make any difference so long as the OEP
is on the card before the NR part of the journey. (And no, I don't
think loading an OEP onto the card mid-journey at London Bridge would
make any difference to the whole journey being treated and charged as
an LU+NR through journey.)

It wouldn't need to be because you'd be on the travelcard-valid part
of the journey. The journey in question only begins when you touch in
at London Bridge NR.

I was rather thinking that visiting ticket offices, or machines even, part
way through a journey would be inconvenient.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On 20 Feb, 21:16, wrote:
In article
,

(Mizter T) wrote:
However, as has been discussed already in other threads, the whole
system rather falls flat on its arse because OEPs are not readily
available from the majority of NR stations in London. It's hard to
see a Penalty Fare issued to someone who didn't have an OEP because
they started from a station where OEPs weren't readily available
standing up to the slightest challenge.

What we still haven't established is what proportion of journeys for
which OEPs are required are started from an NR station. Do the figures
exist?

All of them.

I don't agree. If you start outside your travelcard zones you *don't* need
an OEP, only if you start within them. A lot of Travelcards will be inner
zones, say 1-2, and extensions on NR will start within those zones going
out beyond them. A lot of the time, especially from Zone 1 they will be at
stations with LU ticket offices.

Although I assume that those involving interchanges like Stratford and
Highbury might not be included, assuming that one no longer needs to
use the interchange validators.

Everywhere else your OEP-requiring journey effectively starts when you
touch in an an NR station, whether Kings Cross or New Barnet etc.

No, it starts when you enter the LU/NR system in London, not when you
interchange.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 20 Feb, 22:46, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
14:16:51 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, MIG
remarked:





If course, it wouldn't matter if some people collected an OEP that they
didn't use (or would it... we should ask Alice, or at least the Mad
Hatter, about that).

Yes it would. *If you start a journey with an OEP on your card and
then don't touch out somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an
unresolved journey.

That wasn't my understanding from the long discussion a couple of weeks
ago. That would mean, or example, that if you collected an OEP and then
changed your mind about travelling, you'd be charged for a journey you
never did.

Only if you didn't touch out.

But I never touched in (if I decided not to travel at all).

Why bother to have a season ticket if you never travel?

Maybe the wires were down (as they are wont to be), and I decided to
make my way home independently.

Then you should be fine on that occasion, but the OEP will stay on the
card, and you need to be aware of it for the future.



You would probably carry on commuting etc, within the validity of your
season. While doing so, having an OEP on your card would "matter".

My next journey (the next day) would probably end by touching out inside
"my zones". Does that:

a) Cancel the OEP
b) Cause problems if I have an unused OEP.

Potentially b), but not a). That's why you need to take care in
future situations, and maybe get it cancelled.


If you always end up somewhere where
you can touch out, and remember to do so, you can leave the OEP safely
on the card till you finally touch out outside of your zones, but
inside the PAYG area.

That's a very different situation to "being charged for a journey if you
change your mind".

Where does that quote come from?

See the quote with five chevrons, above.

I thought it was clear. You don't get charged for the journey you
change your mind about, as long as you touch out in your zones. If
you exit legally within your zones without touching, but have an OEP,
you get charged, but wouldn't without an OEP.

More importantly, you might get charged for future journeys if you
don't remember you've still got the OEP and take care not to start a
journey you won't or can't touch out from (eg next week with a paper
extension beyond the PAYG area).


That's why there is supposed to be a facility for
getting the OEP removed.

Where can this facility be found?

LU ticket offices, apparently.

What do they look like? (The facility, not the office).

I don't think it looks like anything; you just ask at the counter.
Not that I've done it. I don't think I've used an Oyster card since
PAYG was accepted on NR.



I said "If you
start a journey with an OEP on your card and then don't touch out
somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an unresolved journey."

ie you are guilty of not-touching-out.

There's no guilt about it. *The majority of journeys using a season
ticket are within the validity of the season, so there is no PAYG
payable, and no need to worry about touching out. *Touching out is
about calculating the PAYG fare; you don't need it if your whole
journey is covered by a season UNLESS you stick an OEP on your card.

But you do seem to be saying that if I don't touch out at all (eg my
scenario when all the trains are cancelled and I use some other way to
get home) then I will automatically get an unresolved journey.

If you get an OEP but never touch in, nothing will happen. The
potential charge is from your first touch in with the OEP on the
card. My example was bailing out at Greenwich instead of Slade
Green. There's no barriers at Greenwich, and if you go there every
day, you wouldn't be in the habit of touching out with your
travelcard. If you had an OEP, that lack of habit would result in a
charge. However, you can still make sure you remember to touch out,
and you have to keep remembering to do so.



But if you start a journey without an OEP, the travelcard simply lets
you through the gate. *Loads of journeys with travelcards on Oyster
involve getting through the gate at Charing Cross and then not
touching out anywhere.

I'm not sure why that's relevant.

It's totally relevant because it's a perfectly normal thing to do
which you won't get clobbered for without an OEP, but will get
clobbered for if you've got one, hence why it matters if you've got an
unused OEP on your card.

How many times does the OEP "clobber you". Once a day until you finally
manage to get it removed? Or does one clobberation also cancel the OEP?
And you seem to be saying that you'll get clobbered the day you added
it, so does that them mean all OEPs expire at midnight. If so, the
concept of an "un-used" one is a bit ephemeral.

They don't seem to expire while you keep on touching out in your
zones. They are meant to be cancelled with your first touch out in
the PAYG area outside of your zones.

I didn't mean to imply the clobberation happening on any particular
day. It would be the first time that you didn't touch out, which
might be perfectly legal. If I've got a 1 - 2 travelcard I never
normally touch out at Greenwich or DLR stations, but with an OEP on
the card I'd have to.

As for whether they are cancelled when you get your first OEP-related
unresolved journey (ie clobberation), I really can't guess. Not sure
if someone will volunteer to try that out.




What matters is whether the zone you're travelling to is "further out"
than your season.

Only if it's in the PAYG area, or else you'd need a normal extension
ticket

agreed.

and would have to make sure that you didn't have an OEP.

I'm still struggling to understand the algorithms, as you can see.

See my post to Roy with the example of going to Tonbridge.

Or maybe we can just hope that the damn things are abandoned asap.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On Feb 20, 9:16 pm, wrote:

(tedjrr) wrote:
Ie if I entered at (say) Bank with a U1/2 travelcard, travelled to
Woolwich DLR, but failed to tap-out I'd have been legal on my
journey
but illegal when I failed to tap out. If attempted the same from
Bank to Woolwich SouthEastern without collecting an OEP at London
Bridge, I'd be illegal from the R2/3 zone boundary, even though the
gates at Woolwich would debit me with a PAYG fare from the R2/3
boundary.

You are expected to get your OEP at Bank in the latter case, surely?

Bank or London Bridge, doesn't make any difference so long as the OEP
is on the card before the NR part of the journey. (And no, I don't
think loading an OEP onto the card mid-journey at London Bridge would
make any difference to the whole journey being treated and charged as
an LU+NR through journey.)

That raises an interesting question about how Oyster deals with
extensions. If you make a LU+NR journey with a season ticket, but the
section outside the zones is LU only or NR only what will you be
charged?

Example - Alexandra Palace - Oxford Circus via Finsbury Park with Z23
travelcard, are you charged £3.00 for a LU+NR Z1 fare, or £1.80 for a LU
Z1 fare?

Peter Smyth

On Feb 20, 11:35*am, Roy Badami wrote:
An OEP is needed when a card holder has both a Travelcard season
ticket and Pay-as-you-Go credit on their Oyster card and wishes to
travel from a station within the validity of their Travelcard season
ticket to a station within the Travelcard zones but not within the
validity of their Travelcard season ticket.

Not for travel on the tube, surely?
Agreed. Not for tube. OEP is an invention of ATOC for use on journeys
wholly or partly by National Rail.

where is the
actual rule stated?
"How to use a Travelcard and pay as you go together on National Rail

You can put a Travelcard season ticket on your Oyster card. It will
cover your National Rail journeys as well as other public transport.

If you want to travel beyond the zones covered by your Travelcard on
National Rail services within London you must set an Oyster Extension
Permit on your card before you travel. This means you will use pay as
you go once you've gone outside the zone.

Oyster Extension Permits
* You can set your permit at any Tube or London Overground station
ticket office or touchscreen ticket machine, Oyster Ticket Stops, some
National Rail ticket offices or self-service ticket machines
* You only need to set an Oyster Extension Permit when you start a
journey within the zones covered by your Travelcard and want to travel
outside those zones on National Rail
* Only set your permit to your card just before you make your
extension journey
* You must have at least £1.50 pay as you go balance on your
Oyster card to set one
* A permit stays on your card until you touch out at the end of
your journey
* When touching out, the permit will be cleared from your Oyster
card and the fare for the extension journey will be deducted from your
pay as you go balance

If you travel beyond the zones covered by your Travelcard without an
Oyster Extension Permit you may be liable to a penalty fare or
prosecution."
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oyster...x#section-5%29

In all these cases, the holder is liable to a
Penalty Fare if challenged when outside the validity of the season
ticket.

Hang on, have I misread that, or is someone seriously saying that you
can now be issued with a penalty fare for paying the *correct* fare for
the journey.
The system imposed by ATOC means that someone can can now be issued
with a penalty fare for not having loaded an OEP to their card if the
card is inspected between them leaving the zones where their
Travelcard season ticket is valid and completing their journey, even
though they have touched in correctly and they would pay the correct
fare *if* they touched out at the end of their journey.

The reason given for this approach by the ATOC rep at the London
Travelwatch F&TC meeting was that without a Penalty Fare regime there
is no incentive for the passenger to touch out at the end of their
journey and nothing can be done unless a passenger is caught in the
act of walking past a validator. It is this particular aspect of the
OEP scheme which causes London Travelwatch to oppose the concept so
strongly.

Under what circumstances would a Zone 1-6 Travelcard *not* be valid
within Zones 1-6? *Now I'm really confused.
I don't think any of us are surprised by the instruction "When you are
using Oyster pay as you go you must touch in on the yellow card reader
at the start of your journey and touch out at the end." The question
is whether having an Oyster card loaded with a season ticket and PAYG
credit creates a liability to touch in and out whenever that card is
used. Opinion at the London Travelwatch meeting seemed to be divided
between those who thought the issuer of the Penalty Fare Notice was
technically correct but unwise, and those who thought s/he was just
plain wrong.

On Feb 21, 12:21*am, wrote:

(MIG) wrote:

On 20 Feb, 22:32, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 20, 9:16*pm, wrote:

(tedjrr) wrote:
ie if I entered at (say) Bank with a U1/2 travelcard, travelled to
Woolwich DLR, but failed to tap-out I'd have been legal on my
journey but illegal when I failed to tap out. * If attempted the
same from Bank to Woolwich SouthEastern without collecting an OEP
at London Bridge, I'd be illegal from the R2/3 zone boundary, even
though the gates at Woolwich would debit me with a PAYG fare from
the R2/3 boundary.

You are expected to get your OEP at Bank in the latter case, surely?

Bank or London Bridge, doesn't make any difference so long as the OEP
is on the card before the NR part of the journey. (And no, I don't
think loading an OEP onto the card mid-journey at London Bridge would
make any difference to the whole journey being treated and charged as
an LU+NR through journey.)

It wouldn't need to be because you'd be on the travelcard-valid part
of the journey. *The journey in question only begins when you touch in
at London Bridge NR.

I was rather thinking that visiting ticket offices, or machines even, part
way through a journey would be inconvenient.

Not really, at least not in this case - at London Bridge, one has to
exit from the tube station and will therefore pass through the LU
ticket hall. Might be easier to do it at LB than Bank.

(And anyway, if one is topside at Bank and going to London Bridge, I'd
recommend either walking or heading to Cannon Street - plus the trains
on the North Kent line that stop at Woolwich leave from Cannon Street
anyway - well, when Cannon Street NR is open for business at least!)