tedjrr wrote:
Surely the way that Oyster works is that you tap-in and you tap-out,
if you have a travelcard and PAYG element then the PAYG debit is
calculated at exit based on the non-travelcard portion of the
journey. Yes, OK for LT where there are barriers, or the DLR where
there are validators. But not OK for suburban rail where there may be
neither, particularly at stations outside the zones.

All NR stations 'in the zones' had validators fitted by December last year,
specifically to allow PAYG use from January. They already accepted
travelcards on Oyster.

Stations outside the zones have nothing to do with Oyster PAYG at all.


Is my thinking wrong? Presumably the only purpose behind an OEP is to
effectively allow a ticket machine (ATVM or TOM) to "tap-in" a PAYG
card at a station that has neither gates nor validators?

Your thinking is quite wrong because of my points above.

Paul S

tedjrr wrote:
Surely the way that Oyster works is that you tap-in and you tap-out,
if you have a travelcard and PAYG element then the PAYG debit is
calculated at exit based on the non-travelcard portion of the
journey. Yes, OK for LT where there are barriers, or the DLR where
there are validators. But not OK for suburban rail where there may be
neither, particularly at stations outside the zones.

Is my thinking wrong? Presumably the only purpose behind an OEP is to
effectively allow a ticket machine (ATVM or TOM) to "tap-in" a PAYG
card at a station that has neither gates nor validators?

I think all stations within the zones have validators now.

The way this would work if it was designed by a sane person is that you
would just touch in and touch out and be charged the correct fare and
that would be that.

The way Oyster has always worked before the introduction of Oyster on
National Rail is that you just touched in and touched out and were
charged the correct fare and that was that.

I strongly suspect the vast majority of Londoners assume that the way
Oyster still works is that you just touch in and touch out and are
charged the correct fare and that's that.

The current system was clearly devised by an insane person.

-roy

On 20 Feb, 15:33, "Paul Scott" wrote:
tedjrr wrote:
Surely the way that Oyster works is that you tap-in and you tap-out,
if you have a travelcard and PAYG element then the PAYG debit is
calculated at exit based on the non-travelcard portion of the
journey. * Yes, OK for LT where there are barriers, or the DLR where
there are validators. *But not OK for suburban rail where there may be
neither, particularly at stations outside the zones.

All NR stations 'in the zones' had validators fitted by December last year,
specifically to allow PAYG use from January. They already accepted
travelcards on Oyster.

Stations outside the zones have nothing to do with Oyster PAYG at all.



Is my thinking wrong? *Presumably the only purpose behind an OEP is to
effectively allow a ticket machine (ATVM or TOM) to "tap-in" a PAYG
card at a station that has neither gates nor validators?

Your thinking is quite wrong because of my points above.

Paul S


Thanks, I'm more confused than. Isn't the OEP just a way of
recording the start-point. If you entered at an NR station within
your travelcard validity, tapped-in there, but then exited at a
station outside your validity why can't the PAYG ballance debit be
calculated as with LU?

Presumably if you travelled without an OEP you'd be debited for the
entire journey, or an incomplete journey?

On Feb 20, 4:00*pm, tedjrr wrote:
On 20 Feb, 15:33, "Paul Scott" wrote:





tedjrr wrote:
Surely the way that Oyster works is that you tap-in and you tap-out,
if you have a travelcard and PAYG element then the PAYG debit is
calculated at exit based on the non-travelcard portion of the
journey. * Yes, OK for LT where there are barriers, or the DLR where
there are validators. *But not OK for suburban rail where there may be
neither, particularly at stations outside the zones.

All NR stations 'in the zones' had validators fitted by December last year,
specifically to allow PAYG use from January. They already accepted
travelcards on Oyster.

Stations outside the zones have nothing to do with Oyster PAYG at all.

Is my thinking wrong? *Presumably the only purpose behind an OEP is to
effectively allow a ticket machine (ATVM or TOM) to "tap-in" a PAYG
card at a station that has neither gates nor validators?

Your thinking is quite wrong because of my points above.

Paul S

Thanks, I'm more confused than. * Isn't the OEP just a way of
recording the start-point. * If you entered at an NR station within
your travelcard validity, tapped-in there, but then exited at a
station outside your validity why can't the PAYG ballance debit be
calculated as with LU?


It is, the OEP is just means that when you touch in with your Oyster,
you get an 'entry charge' deducted from your PAYG balance, which
wouldn't be deducted without the OEP. This 'entry charge' is then
refunded if you touch out within your travelcard validity, or adjusted
to the correct fare if you touch out outside your travelcard validity.

Presumably if you travelled without an OEP you'd be debited for the
entire journey, or an incomplete journey?

No, if you have a travelcard and touch in and out correctly, the
correct fare is charged, with or without the OEP. The OEP is only
there to tell the system whether to deduct anything upon touching in
(and to provide RPIs evidence that something has been paid)

What I'm not sure about is whether failing to touch in, and
travelling outside your valid travelcard zones, will lead to the
correct fare or an incomplete journey being charged when you touch out
beyond your normal validity.

tedjrr wrote:

Thanks, I'm more confused than. Isn't the OEP just a way of
recording the start-point. If you entered at an NR station within
your travelcard validity, tapped-in there, but then exited at a
station outside your validity why can't the PAYG ballance debit be
calculated as with LU?

That's exactly how it does work - but only if you touch out.

Presumably if you travelled without an OEP you'd be debited for the
entire journey, or an incomplete journey?

The purpose of the OEP is to put you in a position where you have to touch
out, in the absece of barriers.

If you look at the situation with LU, LO and DLR, they accept the revenue
risk [that a travelcard holder who doesn't bother to touch out outside his
zones will be undercharged], because they only have a relatively small
proportion of unbarriered stations.

I doubt anyone really knows how many regular LU travellers are fully aware
of this and intentionally use travelcard seasons that are only valid in the
central area.

Paul S

On 20 Feb, 16:23, "Paul Scott" wrote:

The purpose of the OEP is to put you in a position where you have to touch
out, in the absece of barriers.

If you look at the situation with LU, LO and DLR, they accept the revenue
risk [that a travelcard holder who doesn't bother to touch out outside his
zones will be undercharged], because they only have a relatively small
proportion of unbarriered stations.

I doubt anyone really knows how many regular LU travellers are fully aware
of this and intentionally use travelcard seasons that are only valid in the
central area.


Paul S and Andy - thanks.

That's a lot clearer - you have to signal the intention to use PAYG if
entering on a travelcard.

Ie if I entered at (say) Bank with a U1/2 travelcard, travelled to
Woolwich DLR, but failed to tap-out I'd have been legal on my journey
but illegal when I failed to tap out. If attempted the same from
Bank to Woolwich SouthEastern without collecting an OEP at London
Bridge, I'd be illegal from the R2/3 zone boundary, even though the
gates at Woolwich would debit me with a PAYG fare from the R2/3
boundary.

On 20 Feb, 13:44, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
04:27:03 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Mizter T remarked:

However, as has been discussed already in other threads, the whole
system rather falls flat on its arse because OEPs are not readily
available from the majority of NR stations in London.

The obvious answer is a special lane on the ticket gates at the NR
stations marked "Touch in *and* collect OEP".

If course, it wouldn't matter if some people collected an OEP that they
didn't use (or would it... we should ask Alice, or at least the Mad
Hatter, about that).


Yes it would. If you start a journey with an OEP on your card and
then don't touch out somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an
unresolved journey.

For example, if you got an OEP with your zone 1 - 2 travelcard for a
trip to Slade Green, touched in at Charing Cross, then changed your
mind and left at Greenwich without touching out (because, say, you
live there and never normally need to, because it's within your
travelcard zones) you'll get an unresolved journey.

If you didn't have the OEP, you wouldn't get an unresolved journey for
touching in at Charing Cross with your travelcard and never touching
out.

In message
, at
10:12:28 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, MIG
remarked:
However, as has been discussed already in other threads, the whole
system rather falls flat on its arse because OEPs are not readily
available from the majority of NR stations in London.

The obvious answer is a special lane on the ticket gates at the NR
stations marked "Touch in *and* collect OEP".

If course, it wouldn't matter if some people collected an OEP that they
didn't use (or would it... we should ask Alice, or at least the Mad
Hatter, about that).

Yes it would. If you start a journey with an OEP on your card and
then don't touch out somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an
unresolved journey.

That wasn't my understanding from the long discussion a couple of weeks
ago. That would mean, or example, that if you collected an OEP and then
changed your mind about travelling, you'd be charged for a journey you
never did.

For example, if you got an OEP with your zone 1 - 2 travelcard for a
trip to Slade Green, touched in at Charing Cross, then changed your
mind and left at Greenwich without touching out (because, say, you
live there and never normally need to, because it's within your
travelcard zones) you'll get an unresolved journey.

If you didn't have the OEP, you wouldn't get an unresolved journey for
touching in at Charing Cross with your travelcard and never touching
out.

But that scenario also requires you to not-touch-out.
--
Roland Perry

On 20 Feb, 19:54, Roland Perry wrote:
In message
, at
10:12:28 on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, MIG
remarked:

However, as has been discussed already in other threads, the whole
system rather falls flat on its arse because OEPs are not readily
available from the majority of NR stations in London.

The obvious answer is a special lane on the ticket gates at the NR
stations marked "Touch in *and* collect OEP".

If course, it wouldn't matter if some people collected an OEP that they
didn't use (or would it... we should ask Alice, or at least the Mad
Hatter, about that).

Yes it would. *If you start a journey with an OEP on your card and
then don't touch out somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an
unresolved journey.

That wasn't my understanding from the long discussion a couple of weeks
ago. That would mean, or example, that if you collected an OEP and then
changed your mind about travelling, you'd be charged for a journey you
never did.

Only if you didn't touch out. If you always end up somewhere where
you can touch out, and remember to do so, you can leave the OEP safely
on the card till you finally touch out outside of your zones, but
inside the PAYG area.

But you'd have a problem if you got an extension to your travelcard
and then travelled to somewhere outside of the PAYG area with the OEP
still lurking. That's why there is supposed to be a facility for
getting the OEP removed.


For example, if you got an OEP with your zone 1 - 2 travelcard for a
trip to Slade Green, touched in at Charing Cross, then changed your
mind and left at Greenwich without touching out (because, say, you
live there and never normally need to, because it's within your
travelcard zones) you'll get an unresolved journey.

If you didn't have the OEP, you wouldn't get an unresolved journey for
touching in at Charing Cross with your travelcard and never touching
out.

But that scenario also requires you to not-touch-out.

Yes it does. I don't think I suggested otherwise. I said "If you
start a journey with an OEP on your card and then don't touch out
somewhere (anywhere), you will get charged for an unresolved journey."

But if you start a journey without an OEP, the travelcard simply lets
you through the gate. Loads of journeys with travelcards on Oyster
involve getting through the gate at Charing Cross and then not
touching out anywhere.

MIG wrote:

But you'd have a problem if you got an extension to your travelcard
and then travelled to somewhere outside of the PAYG area with the OEP
still lurking. That's why there is supposed to be a facility for
getting the OEP removed.

Under what circumstances can that happen? Could you clarify with an
example?

-roy