In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

*Subject:* Taxi insurance for multiple people?
*From:* Paul Terry
*Date:* Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:31:54 +0000

In message , Roland Perry
writes

In message , at 14:52:11 on
Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:

Nothing to do with insurance - he was more likely referring to
his private hire licence. He'd be in serious trouble if he
picked-up anyone who had not been pre-booked. In the case in
point, where only one passenger had been booked, it would be
necessary to get back to the operator and have the booking
changed to two people.

I've never heard of that before. Is it a London thing?

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The
Private Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance
for drivers and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted
and their PHV driver_s licence suspended or revoked."

I think that the driver in the case concerned was applying the real
letter of the law in order to extract a bit more cash for the fare,
since he wasn't actually touting. But I suspect he was technically
correct because the passenger who made the booking had presumably
only booked for one person.

That's no more plying for hire or touting in London as outside. The law is
the same in effect. I am assuming that the arrangement to share was made
by the person who made the booking before communicating with the driver.

The fact that the extra passenger wasn't going to the same destination
would probably justify a different fare, though, if it involved a detour,
for example.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party"
without me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a
car full).

Of course they can.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message
,
Mizter T writes

In message , at 14:52:11 on Sat,
20 Feb 2010, Paul Terry remarked:

Yes - London has its own act for private hire vehicles ("The Private
Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998"). To quote TfL's guidance for drivers
and operators:

"PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire and are therefore
committing the offence of touting for which they may be prosecuted and
their PHV driver’s licence suspended or revoked."

Sorry Paul but I have never come across a minicab firm in London that
demands to know how exactly many passengers are being picked up for a
normal booking

They always ask me how many passengers, if only in order to send the
appropriate size of vehicle. They also usually ask if there's a lot of
luggage (in which case they send an estate or MPV), if any child seats
are needed, and so on.

Almost all WWW booking forms for private hire similarly ask for these
details.

However, I'm merely quoting above what TfL say about unbooked
passengers, and commenting that the driver probably used this as an
excuse for bumping up the fare. It certainly wouldn't have been because
of an insurance issue, as he claimed.

Minicab firms book "cars" (i.e. carloads) , not individual passengers.

They need to know more detail than you imply, especially on airport runs
- it's not just the number of passengers, but also whether there are
particular needs (such as child seats, disabled access, or a guide dog),
large amounts of luggage, difficult items to transport (e.g. skis) and
so on. Most web booking forms ask for these details, but what an
operator asks for on the phone is up to him or her.

I really don't think it could possibly count as "plying for trade"
when a minicab picks up three passengers instead of two.

I agree. As I said earlier I think the driver was simply using the
licence regulations (described as "insurance") as an excuse for bumping
up the agreed fare. It would have been more honest to say something like
"We charge extra for each unbooked passenger" (or each extra drop-off
point, if that is what was actually involved).

--
Paul Terry

In message , at 17:41:32
on Sat, 20 Feb 2010, remarked:
So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party"
without me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a
car full).

Of course they can.

So Paul Terry seems somewhat outvoted on this issue.
--
Roland Perry

In message , Roland Perry
writes

So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party" without
me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a car full).

It's entirely up to the operator how they take the booking. Almost all
WWW booking forms ask for the number of passengers along with a mountain
of other details. Telephone operators may or may not ask for such
information.

However, if a company is willing to take a booking for just "a car to
Heathrow" without the knowledge that there are five passengers, two of
whom require child seats and one of whom is disabled, and that there is
a wheelchair, eight large suitcases, two pairs of skis, a double bass
and a guide dog among the party, everyone is going to be disappointed if
a Ford Escort turns up for the job.

So Paul Terry seems somewhat outvoted on this issue.

I don't mind being outvoted in the slightest, but it was not me that
wrote "PHV drivers who pick up passengers that have not been booked
through their PHV operators are plying for hire" ... it was TfL.

As I said, I think the driver concerned was just using this as an excuse
to bump up the fare. However, there is no regulation of the fares
charged for private hire - operators can set whatever conditions they
wish.

--
Paul Terry

"Paul Terry" wrote in message

In message , Roland Perry
writes

So they can't take a commission to collect "Mr Perry's party" without
me first saying how many people it is? (Modulo less than a car full).

It's entirely up to the operator how they take the booking. Almost all
WWW booking forms ask for the number of passengers along with a
mountain of other details. Telephone operators may or may not ask for
such information.

However, if a company is willing to take a booking for just "a car to
Heathrow" without the knowledge that there are five passengers, two of
whom require child seats and one of whom is disabled, and that there
is a wheelchair, eight large suitcases, two pairs of skis, a double
bass and a guide dog among the party, everyone is going to be
disappointed if a Ford Escort turns up for the job.

Given that the Ford Escort went out of production in 2000, I think even
a group of two passengers might be disappointed if a shabby, 10+ year
old small car turns up to collect them.

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:40:37 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:

Is there any possible truth to his assertion about insurance, or was this
a barefaced attempt at a scam?

The latter, I'd think. Not unusual in the taxi industry, IMX.

Taxi fares may well include an extra sum for an extra passenger, but
normally this is a small amount, and has nothing whatsoever to do with
insurance - the driver is licenced and insured to carry the number of
people stated on their plate.

That said, there's nothing saying that a minicab firm cannot have a
fares structure that charges the same amount for each passenger, but
I've never come across one. And I've never been asked to specify the
number of passengers when booking one, other than when I asked for a
minibus once.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:18:37 +0000, Paul Terry
wrote:

However, if a company is willing to take a booking for just "a car to
Heathrow" without the knowledge that there are five passengers, two of
whom require child seats and one of whom is disabled, and that there is
a wheelchair, eight large suitcases, two pairs of skis, a double bass
and a guide dog among the party, everyone is going to be disappointed if
a Ford Escort turns up for the job.

I don't think I ever saw an Escort as a taxi. But I would say it's
generally down to the passenger to say when booking if a fairly
standard-sized saloon car won't do, as that's what you generally get
if you don't specify anything else.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Feb 21, 7:58*pm, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010 13:40:37 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote:
Is there any possible truth to his assertion about insurance, or was this
a barefaced attempt at a scam?

The latter, I'd think. *Not unusual in the taxi industry, IMX.

Taxi fares may well include an extra sum for an extra passenger, but
normally this is a small amount, and has nothing whatsoever to do with
insurance - the driver is licenced and insured to carry the number of
people stated on their plate.

London minicabs don't have these plates - instead (if they're
licensed) they display a diamond-in-circle licence in the front
windscreen and back window as can be seen he

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/resources/corp...le-licence.jpg
or via http://tinyurl.com/TfL-Private-Hire-licence

The licence stickers do show how many passengers the vehicle is
permitted to carry, but the text of that is rather small - though to
be fair, it's normally pretty obvious how many passengers are allowed,
as it's the number of seats!

Additionally many minicabs will also have a more obvious TfL "Private
Hire" roundel (grey with blue bar) on display too, which allows them
to pick up and set down passengers on red routes - this is shown in
diagrammatic form on this TfL webpage (can't immediately find a photo
on the web):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/businessandpar..._fix_the_signs
or via http://tinyurl.com/TfL-PHV-red-route-sticker

On Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Mizter T wrote:

On Feb 20, 1:40*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

Is there any possible truth to his assertion about insurance, or was this
a barefaced attempt at a scam?

Absolute total horse****, of course.

What i reckoned. Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. I will try to
persuade the housemate to make a complaint, but i doubt he can be
bothered.

tom

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