teacup
 

I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started from
Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from the other
island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a Metropolitan) had
arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present at
the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started
from Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from
the other island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a
Metropolitan) had arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present
at the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.

Now do people believe me?

How clearly was the arrangement indicated at Edgware Road, by the way? I'm
thinking of both announcements and indicators on the platforms.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

wrote in message
...
In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started
from Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from
the other island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a
Metropolitan) had arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present
at the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.

Now do people believe me?


Sorry Colin, but what is there to not believe?

All Roland has described is the standard platforming, as discussed here in
u.t.l many times previously, and EXACTLY as described in last October's TfL
leaflet...

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...on-dl-2611.pdf

Paul S

teacup
 

In message , at 12:21:05
on Wed, 24 Feb 2010, remarked:
I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started
from Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from
the other island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a
Metropolitan) had arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present
at the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.

Now do people believe me?

How clearly was the arrangement indicated at Edgware Road, by the way? I'm
thinking of both announcements and indicators on the platforms.

The platforms have permanent signs which clearly state where the trains
will be heading. There was also a PA announcement at the station, and
one or two on the train (or possibly on the platform at earlier
stations) before it arrived.
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In message , at 19:01:29 on
Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Paul Scott remarked:

Sorry Colin, but what is there to not believe?

All Roland has described is the standard platforming, as discussed here in
u.t.l many times previously, and EXACTLY as described in last October's TfL
leaflet...

I was under the impression that it would be possible to change without
climbing the stairs. But this is clearly not implemented westbound.
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In message of Wed, 24 Feb
2010 19:05:57 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:21:05 -0600,
wrote:

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started
from Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from
the other island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a
Metropolitan) had arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present
at the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.

Now do people believe me?

Colin I don't think anyone has not believed you. We just don't see
platforming at Edgware Rd and the split Circle Line as being the end of
civilisation as we know it.

Closer to that was an ERD incident at about 8.15 2010/02/24.
I arrived on a District on platform 3 and took stairs to platform 1
where a fairly packed Barking waited. After a couple of minutes, an
inaudible driver PA was given. I spoke to the driver who was waiting for
a relieving driver. A fairly packed Circle arrived on platform 2.
Transfer to this was suggested, but it could not take the stress. The
relieving driver arrived and many returned to the Barking train which
left first. Circle line trains occasionally go east from platform 2.

What sort of incident investigation would this stimulate?
My experience of ERD is that driver availability delays are common.
--
Walter Briscoe

teacup
 

Roland Perry wrote:
I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started from
Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from the other
island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a Metropolitan)
had arrived at platform 4.

???

The Metropolitan hasn't run to Edgware Road for nearly twenty years, before
the H&C was so christened!

teacup
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:21:05 -0600,
wrote:

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started
from Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from
the other island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a
Metropolitan) had arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present
at the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.

Now do people believe me?

Colin I don't think anyone has not believed you. We just don't see
platforming at Edgware Rd and the split Circle Line as being the end of
civilisation as we know it.

Maybe not that, but hardly in line with the DDA.

It's asking a lot of passengers who don't want to have to struggle over
the Edgware Road footbridge to believe they can avoid that by getting a
District train that is nowhere to be seen.

I asked Roland about signs in case they held out any promises to anyone
who might have thought of waiting.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
12:21:05 on Wed, 24 Feb 2010, remarked:
I'm on a "via Victoria" (anticlockwise) circle train that started
from Edgware road on platform 2, which necessitated crossing from
the other island where the westbound Hammersmith train (albeit a
Metropolitan) had arrived at platform 4.

To achieve a cross-platform change I would have had to wait until a
District Line train reversed in platform 3 (there was none present
at the time). And then changed again if I really wanted the Circle.

Now do people believe me?

How clearly was the arrangement indicated at Edgware Road, by the way?
I'm thinking of both announcements and indicators on the platforms.

The platforms have permanent signs which clearly state where the
trains will be heading.

And when trains don't use the right platforms, as Walter Briscoe reports
elsewhere (Eastbound Circle on 2)?

There was also a PA announcement at the
station, and one or two on the train (or possibly on the platform
at earlier stations) before it arrived.

Saying what (in gist)?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

Roland Perry wrote on 24 February 2010 21:05:20 ...
In message , at 19:01:29 on
Wed, 24 Feb 2010, Paul Scott remarked:
Sorry Colin, but what is there to not believe?

All Roland has described is the standard platforming, as discussed here in
u.t.l many times previously, and EXACTLY as described in last October's TfL
leaflet...

I was under the impression that it would be possible to change without
climbing the stairs. But this is clearly not implemented westbound.

Yes it is. There is cross-platform interchange to a District train to
Wimbledon via High Street Kensington. I realise that if you wanted to
go further round the Circle, you'd also have to alight at HSK and wait
on the same platform there.

What were the origin and destination of your journey? It is relevant to
this discussion.
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

teacup
 

In message of Wed, 24 Feb
2010 22:49:20 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:22:35 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What sort of incident investigation would this stimulate?

The usual investigation process that arises whenever there is a delay
longer than 2 minutes. The cause and responsibility has to be determined
for attribution purposes. I am sure that the entire operation of the
revised service pattern is subject to additional detailed scrutiny so
that all of the issues are assessed, lessons learnt and changes made.

[snip]

Thanks Paul for solid information.

Colin: I understand the DDA is a best efforts business. There was a
minor loss of wheelchair access westbound with the introduction of the
teacup - slower timetabled journeys. The serious limitation that
Paddington is only accessible clockwise continues. Paddington's access
is not on the Dec 2009 Step-free Tube guide. The tube map doesn't show
one way access.

My grouse, as a passenger without mobility impairment, is that there is
no information at platform 4 on the first train to High Street
Kensington. About a month ago, I arrived on 4 to find trains waiting at
2 and 3. A platform CSA (admittedly from an SST - peripatetic staff to
deal with local shortages) had no information and did not volunteer to
find any. Help points are not provided. I took the lazy decision which
turned out to be sub-optimal. ;)

Colin: I believe my eastbound Circle line train had come via High Street
Kensington and, so, arrived on the advertised platform. A decision to
allow it to continue eastbound was taken to minimised customer delay. I
think it a pity that LU publishes so little on the web about disruption.

All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability statistics,
which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle and Hammersmith &
City may reflect operational reality, but provides a poor measurement
for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving about 90% before the
service revision, where all other lines achieve 95%+. 93% would be good!
--
Walter Briscoe

teacup
 

In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:


Yes it is. There is cross-platform interchange to a District train
to Wimbledon via High Street Kensington. I realise that if you
wanted to go further round the Circle, you'd also have to alight at
HSK and wait on the same platform there.

Not very convincing if there is no District train in sight!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

teacup
 

On Feb 25, 9:20*am, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
In message of Wed, 24 Feb
All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability statistics,
which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle and Hammersmith &
City may reflect operational reality, but provides a poor measurement
for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving about 90% before the
service revision, where all other lines achieve 95%+. 93% would be good!

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...U-Feb-2010.pdf

--
Paul C
via Google

teacup
 

In message , at
02:17:12 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:
Sorry Colin, but what is there to not believe?

All Roland has described is the standard platforming, as discussed here in
u.t.l many times previously, and EXACTLY as described in last October's TfL
leaflet...
I was under the impression that it would be possible to change
without climbing the stairs. But this is clearly not implemented
westbound.

Yes it is. There is cross-platform interchange to a District train to
Wimbledon via High Street Kensington. I realise that if you wanted to
go further round the Circle, you'd also have to alight at HSK and wait
on the same platform there.

What were the origin and destination of your journey? It is relevant
to this discussion.

I was travelling from Rurostar@StP to the Wimbledon branch. Given that
there was no District Line train waiting at Edgware Rd, but there was a
Circle train, I decided to try going via Gloucester Rd (yes, another up
and down the stairs change required).

Given where I was starting from, I couldn't be bothered to trek all the
way to the Piccadilly Line.

ps. On the way back at 8pm the line was closed at Notting Hill (signal
failure) so the train went to Mansion House rather than Edgware Rd. I
changed to at Victoria for St Pancras (MML).
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In message , at 18:12:30
on Wed, 24 Feb 2010, remarked:

I asked Roland about signs in case they held out any promises to anyone
who might have thought of waiting.

They are a good indication of which platform to head for, after you've
chosen which line you want. What they don't do is help you decide which
line you want to get for stations from Paddington to HSK, nor do they
promote the "change at HSK" solution.
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In message , at 18:57:26
on Wed, 24 Feb 2010, remarked:
The platforms have permanent signs which clearly state where the
trains will be heading.

And when trains don't use the right platforms, as Walter Briscoe reports
elsewhere (Eastbound Circle on 2)?

They are painted (enamelled or whatever) signs. So will be inaccurate as
soon as there's disruption.

There was also a PA announcement at the
station, and one or two on the train (or possibly on the platform
at earlier stations) before it arrived.

Saying what (in gist)?

The one at Edgware Road was advertising the Circle Line train on
platform 2, the one on the train was warning that the Circle was now
"permanently" [1] teacupped, and that a change at ER was required for
people wanting to continue their CL journey.

[1] That's a very long time, even in politics.
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

In message of Wed, 24 Feb
2010 22:49:20 in uk.transport.london, Paul Corfield
writes
On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:22:35 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

What sort of incident investigation would this stimulate?

The usual investigation process that arises whenever there is a delay
longer than 2 minutes. The cause and responsibility has to be
determined for attribution purposes. I am sure that the entire
operation of the revised service pattern is subject to additional
detailed scrutiny so that all of the issues are assessed, lessons
learnt and changes made.

[snip]

Thanks Paul for solid information.

Colin: I understand the DDA is a best efforts business. There was a
minor loss of wheelchair access westbound with the introduction of the
teacup - slower timetabled journeys. The serious limitation that
Paddington is only accessible clockwise continues. Paddington's access
is not on the Dec 2009 Step-free Tube guide. The tube map doesn't show
one way access.

My grouse, as a passenger without mobility impairment, is that there is
no information at platform 4 on the first train to High Street
Kensington. About a month ago, I arrived on 4 to find trains waiting at
2 and 3. A platform CSA (admittedly from an SST - peripatetic staff to
deal with local shortages) had no information and did not volunteer to
find any. Help points are not provided. I took the lazy decision which
turned out to be sub-optimal. ;)

The lack of information at Edgware Road also sounds like a serious
deterioration too. I don't think I've ever met a helpful member of
platform staff there either.

Colin: I believe my eastbound Circle line train had come via High Street
Kensington and, so, arrived on the advertised platform. A decision to
allow it to continue eastbound was taken to minimised customer delay. I
think it a pity that LU publishes so little on the web about disruption.

Wouldn't help many people on the move. They need it on the platforms!

All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability statistics,
which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle and Hammersmith &
City may reflect operational reality, but provides a poor measurement
for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving about 90% before the
service revision, where all other lines achieve 95%+. 93% would be good!

I'm not mobility-impaired either but I do sometimes have luggage and other
impedimenta. Luckily the granddaughter gets older and more able to walk
herself over the footbridge as time goes by.

And they say the new service is an improvement! Edgware Road sounds worse
than ever, especially for information. *Why* can they still not show which
is the first train for High St in this day and age?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

On Feb 25, 11:25*am, wrote:

In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

[snip]

Colin: I understand the DDA is a best efforts business. There was a
minor loss of wheelchair access westbound with the introduction of the
teacup - slower timetabled journeys. The serious limitation that
Paddington is only accessible clockwise continues. Paddington's access
is not on the Dec 2009 Step-free Tube guide. The tube map doesn't show
one way access.

My grouse, as a passenger without mobility impairment, is that there is
no information at platform 4 on the first train to High Street
Kensington. About a month ago, I arrived on 4 to find trains waiting at
2 and 3. A platform CSA (admittedly from an SST - peripatetic staff to
deal with local shortages) had no information and did not volunteer to
find any. Help points are not provided. I took the lazy decision which
turned out to be sub-optimal. ;)

The lack of information at Edgware Road also sounds like a serious
deterioration too. I don't think I've ever met a helpful member of
platform staff there either.

Hold on, if it was never any good, how can it be a serious
deterioration. I demand rhetoric with at least some logic underpinning
it ;-)


Colin: I believe my eastbound Circle line train had come via High Street
Kensington and, so, arrived on the advertised platform. A decision to
allow it to continue eastbound was taken to minimised customer delay. I
think it a pity that LU publishes so little on the web about disruption..

Wouldn't help many people on the move. They need it on the platforms!

All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability statistics,
which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle and Hammersmith &
City may reflect operational reality, but provides a poor measurement
for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving about 90% before the
service revision, where all other lines achieve 95%+. 93% would be good!

I'm not mobility-impaired either but I do sometimes have luggage and other
impedimenta. Luckily the granddaughter gets older and more able to walk
herself over the footbridge as time goes by.

And they say the new service is an improvement! Edgware Road sounds worse
than ever, especially for information. *Why* can they still not show which
is the first train for High St in this day and age?

Because the signalling system isn't from this day and age.

Just because Edgware Road might be a bit messy that doesn't invalidate
the notion that the service has improved. Well, maybe it does to you.
To me, the idea that the Circle line might actually work means I might
start to acknowledge its existence.

teacup
 

In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

wrote on 25 February 2010 09:43:19
...
In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

Yes it is. There is cross-platform interchange to a District train
to Wimbledon via High Street Kensington. I realise that if you
wanted to go further round the Circle, you'd also have to alight at
HSK and wait on the same platform there.

Not very convincing if there is no District train in sight!

Nonsense! Cross-platform interchange doesn't mean there's always a
train there waiting for you!

Are there signs advertising that method of step-free interchange though?
Edgware Road seems rather information-light.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

In article
,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Feb 25, 9:20*am, Walter Briscoe
wrote:
In message of Wed, 24 Feb
All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability statistics,
which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle and Hammersmith
& City may reflect operational reality, but provides a poor
measurement for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving about
90% before the service revision, where all other lines achieve 95%+.
93% would be good!


http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ing-Director-R
eport-RUP-LU-Feb-2010.pdf

Showing, FWIW, the only period shown for last year and this (9) as worse
for the Circle and Hammersmith.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

Roland Perry wrote on 25 February 2010 11:04:10 ...
In message , at
02:17:12 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:

All Roland has described is the standard platforming, as discussed here in
u.t.l many times previously, and EXACTLY as described in last October's TfL
leaflet...

I was under the impression that it would be possible to change
without climbing the stairs. But this is clearly not implemented
westbound.

Yes it is. There is cross-platform interchange to a District train to
Wimbledon via High Street Kensington. I realise that if you wanted to
go further round the Circle, you'd also have to alight at HSK and wait
on the same platform there.

What were the origin and destination of your journey? It is relevant
to this discussion.

I was travelling from Rurostar@StP to the Wimbledon branch. Given that
there was no District Line train waiting at Edgware Rd, but there was a
Circle train, I decided to try going via Gloucester Rd (yes, another up
and down the stairs change required).

So just because the District hadn't managed to have a train waiting for
you in the platform at Edgware Road, you volunteer for an extra two
up-and-down-stairs interchanges in order to save at best the odd couple
of minutes, but only if the first westbound at Gloucester Road is a
Wimbledon (which it's quite likely not to be).

That's your choice, but it's unfair to pretend that the advertised
interchanges at Edgware Road don't work, based on that scenario.

Given where I was starting from, I couldn't be bothered to trek all the
way to the Piccadilly Line.

No, you prefer routes with stairs, apparently. :-)

--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

teacup
 

teacup
 

In message , at
17:42:50 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:

So just because the District hadn't managed to have a train waiting for
you in the platform at Edgware Road,

If there's no train in the platform, there won't be one departing in the
near future. It takes five minutes to turn one round, and it has to
cross the front of the train waiting (in platform 2) which will depart
southbound. Which it didn't do in the time I was aboard that train.

you volunteer for an extra two up-and-down-stairs interchanges in order
to save at best the odd couple of minutes, but only if the first
westbound at Gloucester Road is a Wimbledon (which it's quite likely
not to be).

The first train from Edgware Road isn't, either.

That's your choice, but it's unfair to pretend that the advertised
interchanges at Edgware Road don't work, based on that scenario.

What clearly doesn't work is a no-stairs interchange to the Circle
anticlockwise. Unless you use the unadvertised change at HSK.

Which also means I'd have to let "next" Circle Line train (the one
sitting in Platform 2) go, because the next District will be after that.
So I'm condemned to use the "Circle train after the one six feet away".

Which is going to typically add 10 minutes.

Given where I was starting from, I couldn't be bothered to trek all
the way to the Piccadilly Line.

No, you prefer routes with stairs, apparently. :-)

They aren't as far as the two interchanges with the deep level tube (at
KX and then again at maybe Earls Court or Gloucester Rd).
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

Roland Perry wrote on 25 February 2010 21:45:10 ...
In message , at
17:42:50 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:

So just because the District hadn't managed to have a train waiting for
you in the platform at Edgware Road,

If there's no train in the platform, there won't be one departing in the
near future. It takes five minutes to turn one round, and it has to
cross the front of the train waiting (in platform 2) which will depart
southbound. Which it didn't do in the time I was aboard that train.

you volunteer for an extra two up-and-down-stairs interchanges in order
to save at best the odd couple of minutes, but only if the first
westbound at Gloucester Road is a Wimbledon (which it's quite likely
not to be).

The first train from Edgware Road isn't, either.

Just do the arithmetic. Going via Gloucester Road adds on average 10
minutes to your journey time compared with the direct route on Wimbleware.

That's your choice, but it's unfair to pretend that the advertised
interchanges at Edgware Road don't work, based on that scenario.

What clearly doesn't work is a no-stairs interchange to the Circle
anticlockwise. Unless you use the unadvertised change at HSK.

That's a different argument. What journey are you considering now?
--
Richard J.
(to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address)

teacup
 

In message , at
22:40:02 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:
Just do the arithmetic. Going via Gloucester Road adds on average 10
minutes to your journey time compared with the direct route on
Wimbleware.

I left Edgware Road on a train that had departed before a District had
even arrived (although looking at the timetable, the there's supposed to
be a 5 minute gap between each train).

And the time from HSK to GR is about the same as HSK to Earls Court - so
the "extra" time is only that required to change platforms at GR, wait
for the next train, and the trip to EC.

If the trains are running in the published 5-minute pattern from ER,
then I reckon that would be a draw (not a ten minute penalty). But as we
all know "a train in the hand is worth two in the timetable".

That's your choice, but it's unfair to pretend that the advertised
interchanges at Edgware Road don't work, based on that scenario.
What clearly doesn't work is a no-stairs interchange to the Circle
anticlockwise. Unless you use the unadvertised change at HSK.

That's a different argument. What journey are you considering now?

Same one - St Pancras to Wimbledon (via GR or otherwise).
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

On Feb 26, 11:10*am, Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at
22:40:02 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:

Just do the arithmetic. *Going via Gloucester Road adds on average 10
minutes to your journey time compared with the direct route on
Wimbleware.

I left Edgware Road on a train that had departed before a District had
even arrived (although looking at the timetable, the there's supposed to
be a 5 minute gap between each train).

And the time from HSK to GR is about the same as HSK to Earls Court - so
the "extra" time is only that required to change platforms at GR, wait
for the next train, and the trip to EC.

If the trains are running in the published 5-minute pattern from ER,
then I reckon that would be a draw (not a ten minute penalty). But as we
all know "a train in the hand is worth two in the timetable".

The Wimbleware service is every 10 minutes, not every 5.

Or are you saying there's a 5 minute gap between trains to HSK, which
alternate between Wimbleware and Circle?

If I was taking that route, then unless I knew the Wimbleware service
was disrupted, I'd probably just stay put at Edgware Road until a
direct train turned up.

(Disregarding luggage considerations, Vic line to Vauxhall and then
SWT to Wimbledon is the choice route I'd think - plenty of steps at
Vauxhall for all the staircase fans out there!)

teacup
 

In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

wrote on 25 February 2010 17:08:24
...
In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

wrote on 25 February 2010 09:43:19 ...
In article ,
(Richard J.) wrote:

Yes it is. There is cross-platform interchange to a District train
to Wimbledon via High Street Kensington. I realise that if you
wanted to go further round the Circle, you'd also have to alight at
HSK and wait on the same platform there.

Not very convincing if there is no District train in sight!

Nonsense! Cross-platform interchange doesn't mean there's always a
train there waiting for you!

Are there signs advertising that method of step-free interchange
though? Edgware Road seems rather information-light.

There are permanent signs on Platform 3 indicating that District
trains to Wimbledon run from there.

And no other signage for when that breaks down, or indication for the best
way to get to stations from Paddington to High St?!

I feel a Boltar-like outburst coming on. I shall stop now before I injure
myself.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

If there's no train in the platform, there won't be one departing
in the near future. It takes five minutes to turn one round, and it
has to cross the front of the train waiting (in platform 2) which
will depart southbound. Which it didn't do in the time I was aboard
that train.

That's a stroke of genius, adding more conflicts in the vicinity of Praed
St junction!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
22:40:02 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:
Just do the arithmetic. Going via Gloucester Road adds on average 10
minutes to your journey time compared with the direct route on
Wimbleware.

I left Edgware Road on a train that had departed before a District
had even arrived (although looking at the timetable, the there's
supposed to be a 5 minute gap between each train).

And the time from HSK to GR is about the same as HSK to Earls Court
- so the "extra" time is only that required to change platforms at
GR, wait for the next train, and the trip to EC.

If the trains are running in the published 5-minute pattern from
ER, then I reckon that would be a draw (not a ten minute penalty).
But as we all know "a train in the hand is worth two in the
timetable".

Priceless! I shall treasure that, Roland!

The other reason not yet mentioned for getting the first train to High St
is the possibility of picking up an Olympia there for direct access to
Earl's Court. You'd have the bridge at High St (with, IME, a good chance
of the Olympia train leaving while you're on it) but still possibly
quicker than going via Gloucester Road.

Also, won't Gloucester Road be cross-platform late evenings and Sundays?
Or have they stopped changing the District platform used then?

That's your choice, but it's unfair to pretend that the advertised
interchanges at Edgware Road don't work, based on that scenario.
What clearly doesn't work is a no-stairs interchange to the Circle
anticlockwise. Unless you use the unadvertised change at HSK.

That's a different argument. What journey are you considering now?

Same one - St Pancras to Wimbledon (via GR or otherwise).

As Mizter.T says, that might be quite a bit faster if you ticket allows
it, without luggage and other mobility considerations. Victoria & Bakerloo
to Waterloo might even be faster still. Depends or what time you allow
yourself for the interchanges and to find a train at Waterloo. That's
where the journey planner might have its limitations.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Feb 25, 11:25*am, wrote:

In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

[snip]

Colin: I understand the DDA is a best efforts business. There was a
minor loss of wheelchair access westbound with the introduction of
the teacup - slower timetabled journeys. The serious limitation that
Paddington is only accessible clockwise continues. Paddington's
access is not on the Dec 2009 Step-free Tube guide. The tube map
doesn't show one way access.

My grouse, as a passenger without mobility impairment, is that there
is no information at platform 4 on the first train to High Street
Kensington. About a month ago, I arrived on 4 to find trains waiting
at 2 and 3. A platform CSA (admittedly from an SST - peripatetic
staff to deal with local shortages) had no information and did not
volunteer to find any. Help points are not provided. I took the
lazy decision which turned out to be sub-optimal. ;)

The lack of information at Edgware Road also sounds like a serious
deterioration too. I don't think I've ever met a helpful member of
platform staff there either.

Hold on, if it was never any good, how can it be a serious
deterioration. I demand rhetoric with at least some logic underpinning
it ;-)

Colin: I believe my eastbound Circle line train had come via High
Street Kensington and, so, arrived on the advertised platform. A
decision to allow it to continue eastbound was taken to minimised
customer delay. I think it a pity that LU publishes so little on
the web about disruption.

Wouldn't help many people on the move. They need it on the platforms!

All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability
statistics, which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle
and Hammersmith & City may reflect operational reality, but provides
a poor measurement for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving
about 90% before the service revision, where all other lines achieve
95%+. 93% would be good!

I'm not mobility-impaired either but I do sometimes have luggage and
other impedimenta. Luckily the granddaughter gets older and more able
to walk herself over the footbridge as time goes by.

And they say the new service is an improvement! Edgware Road sounds
worse than ever, especially for information. *Why* can they still not
show which is the first train for High St in this day and age?

Because the signalling system isn't from this day and age.

Just because Edgware Road might be a bit messy that doesn't invalidate
the notion that the service has improved. Well, maybe it does to you.

It does to the quite large proportion of Circle /H&C/WImbleware pax who
want to "turn the top left corner".

To me, the idea that the Circle line might actually work means I might
start to acknowledge its existence.

The old PIS at Edgware Road was immensely better with indicators on all
platforms of the next trains from all platforms. When they "improved"
things (and removed some historic baggage like the ability to show Verney
Junction as a destination) they made things a lot worse, so it can't just
be the signalling.

Why didn't they at least do something more that new fixed signs to improve
the passenger information systems there before messing with the Circle?
They are positively misleading at times of disruption.

The Earl's Court PIS is not even from my late father's age but it's better
than at Edgware Road with more complexity in some respects (but not
reversing trains, I concede).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

On Feb 26, 2:39 pm, wrote:

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
22:40:02 on Thu, 25 Feb 2010, Richard J.
remarked:

[snip]

That's a different argument. What journey are you considering now?

Same one - St Pancras to Wimbledon (via GR or otherwise).

As Mizter.T says, that might be quite a bit faster if you ticket allows
it, without luggage and other mobility considerations. Victoria & Bakerloo
to Waterloo might even be faster still. Depends or what time you allow
yourself for the interchanges and to find a train at Waterloo. That's
where the journey planner might have its limitations.

Nah, all trains between Waterloo and Wimbledon stop at Vauxhall, so
Vic line to Vauxhall and SWT onwards will always be quicker - KXSP to
Vauxhall is 13 minutes, whilst KXSP to Waterloo is 14-16 minutes (via
Oxford Circus and the easy change onto the Bakerloo).

teacup
 

On 26 Feb, 14:39, wrote:
In article
,





(Mizter T) wrote:
On Feb 25, 11:25 am, wrote:

In article ,
(Walter Briscoe) wrote:

[snip]

Colin: I understand the DDA is a best efforts business. There was a
minor loss of wheelchair access westbound with the introduction of
the teacup - slower timetabled journeys. The serious limitation that
Paddington is only accessible clockwise continues. Paddington's
access is not on the Dec 2009 Step-free Tube guide. The tube map
doesn't show one way access.

My grouse, as a passenger without mobility impairment, is that there
is no information at platform 4 on the first train to High Street
Kensington. About a month ago, I arrived on 4 to find trains waiting
at 2 and 3. A platform CSA (admittedly from an SST - peripatetic
staff to deal with local shortages) had no information and did not
volunteer to find any. Help points are not provided. I took the
lazy decision which turned out to be sub-optimal. ;)

The lack of information at Edgware Road also sounds like a serious
deterioration too. I don't think I've ever met a helpful member of
platform staff there either.

Hold on, if it was never any good, how can it be a serious
deterioration. I demand rhetoric with at least some logic underpinning
it ;-)

Colin: I believe my eastbound Circle line train had come via High
Street Kensington and, so, arrived on the advertised platform. A
decision to allow it to continue eastbound was taken to minimised
customer delay. I think it a pity that LU publishes so little on
the web about disruption.

Wouldn't help many people on the move. They need it on the platforms!

All: I am afraid I failed to note the URL for reliability
statistics, which was recently given in utl. Aggregation of Circle
and Hammersmith & City may reflect operational reality, but provides
a poor measurement for customers. I recall the aggregation achieving
about 90% before the service revision, where all other lines achieve
95%+. 93% would be good!

I'm not mobility-impaired either but I do sometimes have luggage and
other impedimenta. Luckily the granddaughter gets older and more able
to walk herself over the footbridge as time goes by.

And they say the new service is an improvement! Edgware Road sounds
worse than ever, especially for information. *Why* can they still not
show which is the first train for High St in this day and age?

Because the signalling system isn't from this day and age.

Just because Edgware Road might be a bit messy that doesn't invalidate
the notion that the service has improved. Well, maybe it does to you.

It does to the quite large proportion of Circle /H&C/WImbleware pax who
want to "turn the top left corner".

To me, the idea that the Circle line might actually work means I might
start to acknowledge its existence.

The old PIS at Edgware Road was immensely better with indicators on all
platforms of the next trains from all platforms. When they "improved"
things (and removed some historic baggage like the ability to show Verney
Junction as a destination) they made things a lot worse, so it can't just
be the signalling.

Why didn't they at least do something more that new fixed signs to improve
the passenger information systems there before messing with the Circle?
They are positively misleading at times of disruption.

The Earl's Court PIS is not even from my late father's age but it's better
than at Edgware Road with more complexity in some respects (but not
reversing trains, I concede).

Do the indicators on the Wimble-related parts of the District yet show
any next trains at all before they are actually in sight?

I don't recall them ever doing so.

teacup
 

In message
, at
03:46:57 on Fri, 26 Feb 2010, Mizter T remarked:

Or are you saying there's a 5 minute gap between trains to HSK, which
alternate between Wimbleware and Circle?

Yep.

If I was taking that route, then unless I knew the Wimbleware service
was disrupted, I'd probably just stay put at Edgware Road until a
direct train turned up.

(Disregarding luggage considerations, Vic line to Vauxhall and then
SWT to Wimbledon is the choice route I'd think - plenty of steps at
Vauxhall for all the staircase fans out there!)

Long way to the Victoria Line from the front of St Pancras :(
--
Roland Perry

teacup
 

In message
,
Mizter T writes

If I was taking that route, then unless I knew the Wimbleware service
was disrupted, I'd probably just stay put at Edgware Road until a
direct train turned up.

I can see the attraction of changing elsewhere, though. Edgware Road is
one of the coldest stations I've ever waited on!
--
Paul Terry

teacup
 

In message
, MIG
writes

Do the indicators on the Wimble-related parts of the District yet show
any next trains at all before they are actually in sight?

The live departure boards for Kensington High Street generally show an
astonishing mish-mash. Just looked now and in the anti-clockwise
direction I see:

1. Circle and Hammersmith & City (1 min)
2. Unknown (4 mins) - likely to be a Wimbleware, but it ought to know if
its only 4 minutes away.
3. Circle Line Inner Rail (yep!) (10 mins)

Ex-Wimbledon trains are recognised in the clockwise direction, though.

As I recall, there is not always a direct correlation between the
information on the web and that displayed on the platform, although I've
always assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the information comes from the
same source.
--
Paul Terry

teacup
 

Mizter T wrote

On Feb 26, 2:39 pm, wrote:

Same one - St Pancras to Wimbledon (via GR or otherwise).

As Mizter.T says, that might be quite a bit faster if you ticket
allows
it, without luggage and other mobility considerations. Victoria &
Bakerloo
to Waterloo might even be faster still. Depends or what time you
allow
yourself for the interchanges and to find a train at Waterloo.
That's
where the journey planner might have its limitations.

Nah, all trains between Waterloo and Wimbledon stop at Vauxhall, so
Vic line to Vauxhall and SWT onwards will always be quicker - KXSP to
Vauxhall is 13 minutes, whilst KXSP to Waterloo is 14-16 minutes (via
Oxford Circus and the easy change onto the Bakerloo).

"next train to Wimbledon" at W'loo is a level stroll along the
concourse - do all trains from Vauxhall to Wimbledon leave from the
same platform pair ?

If they don't you presumably hope the PIS is accurate.

--
Mike D

teacup
 

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Feb 26, 2:39 pm, wrote:

As Mizter.T says, that might be quite a bit faster if you ticket
allows it, without luggage and other mobility considerations. Victoria
& Bakerloo to Waterloo might even be faster still. Depends or what
time you allow yourself for the interchanges and to find a train at
Waterloo. That's where the journey planner might have its limitations.

Nah, all trains between Waterloo and Wimbledon stop at Vauxhall, so
Vic line to Vauxhall and SWT onwards will always be quicker - KXSP to
Vauxhall is 13 minutes, whilst KXSP to Waterloo is 14-16 minutes
(via Oxford Circus and the easy change onto the Bakerloo).

Fair enough. I thought some SWT trains to Wimbledon were first stop
Clapham Junction. Wrong line for me.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

In article
,
(MIG) wrote:

On 26 Feb, 14:39, wrote:

Do the indicators on the Wimble-related parts of the District yet show
any next trains at all before they are actually in sight?

I don't recall them ever doing so.

The ones at East Putney (Eastbound) claim to do so.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

teacup
 

wrote in message
...
In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Feb 26, 2:39 pm, wrote:

As Mizter.T says, that might be quite a bit faster if you ticket
allows it, without luggage and other mobility considerations. Victoria
& Bakerloo to Waterloo might even be faster still. Depends or what
time you allow yourself for the interchanges and to find a train at
Waterloo. That's where the journey planner might have its limitations.

Nah, all trains between Waterloo and Wimbledon stop at Vauxhall, so
Vic line to Vauxhall and SWT onwards will always be quicker - KXSP to
Vauxhall is 13 minutes, whilst KXSP to Waterloo is 14-16 minutes
(via Oxford Circus and the easy change onto the Bakerloo).

Fair enough. I thought some SWT trains to Wimbledon were first stop
Clapham Junction. Wrong line for me.

This is relatively new. The Guildford trains used to miss out Vauxhall.
There even used to be some that were Wimbledon first stop

tim