On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:24:14 +0000, Tim Fenton wrote:

I'm of the belief that the likes of Simon Jenkins would quickly cease
their anti-Crossrail ranting once they had spent a few weeks as regular
commuters on the Central Line.

Yep. Having commuted on the Central Line for a number of years now, any
doubts I could have ever had that it's running MILES over capacity are
well have been well and truly slapped down.

I have the option of getting to work late (and then leaving late) at the
moment, so I get to Leyton at approaching 9am these days, and even then,
I have never got a seat in 2 years - if I ever do need to get to work for
9, meaning getting to Leyton at about 8-ish, I usually have to let at
least 2 or 3 trains go by before getting on. And even when I used to
travel from Bethnal Green at 7:15am, it would be sardines even at that
time.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:36:08 +0000, Bruce wrote:

If OOC is going to include interchanges with all those lines, there's
precious little point going on to Euston where interchange opportunities
will be far fewer. That will also save the not inconsiderable cost of
rebuilding Euston.

(I actually believe that there should be a NW London interchange (like
OOC), AND tunnelling all the way through to somewhere useful in the South/
East such as London Bridge or L'pool St so that it's not a pain to get to
from the other side of London....of course, I'll take it stopping at OOC
if it will just get built!)

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:57:17 +0000 (UTC), Martin Petrov
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:36:08 +0000, Bruce wrote:

If OOC is going to include interchanges with all those lines, there's
precious little point going on to Euston where interchange opportunities
will be far fewer. That will also save the not inconsiderable cost of
rebuilding Euston.

(I actually believe that there should be a NW London interchange (like
OOC), AND tunnelling all the way through to somewhere useful in the South/
East such as London Bridge or L'pool St so that it's not a pain to get to
from the other side of London....of course, I'll take it stopping at OOC
if it will just get built!)


I think that is a further indication of just how half-baked this whole
idea is. It simply isn't possible to come up with a properly planned
and costed proposal for a mega project like this in such a short time.
Above all, what is missing is a truly strategic view of how high speed
rail would sit alongside, and be integrated with, the classic network,
and how the two together would best serve passengers.

But we have seen this before with IEP. The balkanisation of BR means
that there is no overall strategic direction for the railway. The SRA
provided it to some extent under Alistair Morton, but the disastrous
appointment of Richard Bowker brought that to an end, and began the
era of micro-managing the railway that has been very damaging.

When the Department for Transport saw the complete mess Bowker was
making, they quickly realised that they could do the micro-managing
themselves without any need for a separate agency. So they disbanded
the SRA because it wasn't doing any good, rather than fire Bowker and
appoint someone to head it who was capable of strategic thinking.

With a properly managed SRA in place, the IEP and High Speed 2
mistakes would have been much less likely to occur.

On 2010-03-18 18:36:08 +0000, Bruce said:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:25:07 -0700 (PDT), kev
wrote:

snip

snip


I think it's an excellent idea. In fact it is such a good idea that
Old Oak Common (OOC) should be the terminus of High Speed 2.

If OOC is going to include interchanges with all those lines, there's
precious little point going on to Euston where interchange
opportunities will be far fewer. That will also save the not
inconsiderable cost of rebuilding Euston.

HS2 needs to connect to HS1 doesn't it? If you look at the area near
Euston on Google maps there is an easy connection from HS2 to HS1
via Primrose Hill and Camden Road and the track layout at St Pancras
has two connections to the North London line. There is space for more
tracks through Camden Road. Put the two lines together and we could
have DB ICE3s running through to Birmingham and Manchester. That is
why the London terminus has to be at Euston and not Heathrow or OOC.

I agree the OOC plan is a good one. Having a major interchange mirroring
Stratford makes a lot of sense.

On 2010-03-18 16:25:07 +0000, kev said:

HS2 are proposing an interchange between High Speed 2, Crossrail, and
all services out of Paddington (including the Heathrow express), at
Old Oak Common.

snip

Layout of proposed station (page 83):

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/hi.../chapter3a.pdf

Looking

at the diagram, OOC station is right next to North Pole depot,
which has lain empty since Eurostar vacated it to move to Temple Mills.
Suddenly it looks like the depot could once again be used for TGV-type
train maintenance. All that would be needed is a connection from HS2
on the other side of the GWML, and since HS2 will be in tunnel east of
OOC, a spur in tunnel coming up inside North Pole would be feasible.
Alternatively, a flyover from the station box, à la Stratford International,
could cross the GWML and come down inside the depot.

"Stephen Sangwine" wrote

Looking at the diagram, OOC station is right next to North Pole depot,
which has lain empty since Eurostar vacated it to move to Temple Mills.
Suddenly it looks like the depot could once again be used for TGV-type
train maintenance. All that would be needed is a connection from HS2
on the other side of the GWML, and since HS2 will be in tunnel east of
OOC, a spur in tunnel coming up inside North Pole would be feasible.
Alternatively, a flyover from the station box, à la Stratford
International,
could cross the GWML and come down inside the depot.

It seems that North Pole has been pencilled in as the depot for GW IEPs,
with HS2 trains being maintained at Washwood Heath.

Peter

Just noticed this submission to HS2 by Parsons Brinckerhoff:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/hi...pdf/oldoak.pdf

see the diagrams and plans on pages 9, 10 and 20 in particular.

As well as a low level Crossrail/Great Western/HS2 station, they
suggest a high level station with:

*four West Coast Main Line platforms (for services either terminating
or going onto the West London Line)
*two Dudding Hill line platforms (so services could be run onto the
Chiltern and Midland Main lines)
*two North London Line platforms (effectively bays facing the Richmond
direction)
*two West London Line platforms

On Mar 20, 11:03*pm, kev wrote:
Just noticed this submission to HS2 by Parsons Brinckerhoff:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/hi...stakeholdersub...

see the diagrams and plans on pages 9, 10 and 20 in particular.

As well as a low level Crossrail/Great Western/HS2 station, they
suggest a high level station with:

*four West Coast Main Line platforms (for services either terminating
or going onto the West London Line)
*two Dudding Hill line platforms (so services could be run onto the
Chiltern and Midland Main lines)
*two North London Line platforms (effectively bays facing the Richmond
direction)
*two West London Line platforms

Intriguing. Quite a novel solution to the problem of serving both the
WLL and the Richmond Line, though it's not much use for through
service from the Richmond line heading north (be it to Willesden or
Cricklewood.) I'm also not entirely sure of the benefit of serving the
Chiltern and MML either, though I guess it's an extra pair of
platforms each they can both ill-afford at their respective termini.
Their flyunder destroys any possibility of reinstating platforms on
the slow lines at Willesden though, which would be a pity.

....with that much construction going on it'd be handy if the freight
loop at Olympia was extended through to this station to join the
proposed one there though. Might enable the WLL to have the decent
level of passenger service it needs.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 16:03:33 -0700 (PDT), kev
wrote:

Just noticed this submission to HS2 by Parsons Brinckerhoff:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/hi...pdf/oldoak.pdf

see the diagrams and plans on pages 9, 10 and 20 in particular.

As well as a low level Crossrail/Great Western/HS2 station, they
suggest a high level station with:

*four West Coast Main Line platforms (for services either terminating
or going onto the West London Line)
*two Dudding Hill line platforms (so services could be run onto the
Chiltern and Midland Main lines)
*two North London Line platforms (effectively bays facing the Richmond
direction)
*two West London Line platforms


As I suggested, there would be no need for High Speed 2 to terminate
at Euston.

In message , at 09:16:49 on
Sun, 21 Mar 2010, Bruce remarked:

As I suggested, there would be no need for High Speed 2 to terminate
at Euston.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...wreck_at_Montp
arnasse_1895_2.jpg
--
Roland Perry