"Barry Salter" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:10:23 +0000 (UTC), "Terry Harper"
wrote:

I've often wondered why the MoT/DoT/DEFRA uses a system designed to
confuse,
and why they don't adopt the US method of showing roads which share
routes
on the signposts. Hence you could follow A34 all the way, rather than
have
to know that you need to use the A43/M40/M42/M6 to pick it up again.

Or how about the European Route Numbering System? [1]

For example, the good old E15 which, in the UK, runs from Dover to Wick,
via the A20, M20, M25, A282 (Dartford Crossing), M25, A1(M), A1, [Repeat
A1(M) and A1 as necessary], A720, A8, A902, A90, M90, A9 and A99. A
distance of 738 miles!

Or the rather odd E32, which runs the 16 miles of A120 from Harwich to
Colchester.

When you come to think of it, the E-road system is analogous with the
US-Highway system, which follows state roads at times, usually with the
US-Highway taking precedence. It is very comforting there to be able to see
a set of road numbers on a post, which included the number of the one which
you are following. Of course, you can be headed in the opposite direction to
the one you want:-)
--
Terry Harper, Web Co-ordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail:
URL: http://www.terry.harper.btinternet.co.uk/

"Mark Fry" wrote in message
...

Regarding funding, that would be true if the funding from the crossing
went
to pay for more crossings, but this isn't the case. When the bridge was
constructed it a joint venture involving a company called Trafalgar
House,
amongst others. Not too long ago the company controlling the crossing has
become a French company called Le Crossing, so do you think the revenue
generated by Le crossing will be funding more Le Crossings? I doubt it.

And if my costs do increase, I pass them on to the distributor / shipper,
who in turn passes them on to the consumer, which is you!
We are already paying enough taxes, why should we have to pay more.



Errrrmmm, to build more roads?

wrote:

"Mark Fry" wrote:

Regarding funding, that would be true if the funding from the
crossing went to pay for more crossings, but this isn't the case.
When the bridge was constructed it a joint venture involving a
company called Trafalgar House, amongst others. Not too long ago
the company controlling the crossing has become a French company
called Le Crossing, so do you think the revenue generated by Le
crossing will be funding more Le Crossings? I doubt it.

And if my costs do increase, I pass them on to the distributor /
shipper, who in turn passes them on to the consumer, which is you!
We are already paying enough taxes, why should we have to pay more.

Errrrmmm, to build more roads?

More tax at the same rate will do that (in spadefuls).

The same roads do not have to built anew every year, do they?

Clearly Europeans believe something different, that constructing
motorways is rather like handing dollops of money over to a
select few. This is considered unnacceptable, and hence their
roads are tolled.

In some countries yes, but then their petrol tax is a lot lower to
compensate. However, Germany's motorways are not tolled, and yet they have
the most comprehensive motorway network in Europe. Why can't we?

Our motorways weren't tolled from the start as it was believed that if
you have a road, you may as well let as many people use it as they
want, as there is (was) zero marginal cost of extra cars. This isn't
really the case anymore due to congestion.

Congestion which is due to cars becoming more affordable, hence not only the
rich can afford them; and also women breaking free and getting their own car
after decades of being told to stay at home and do the cooking.
Surely these trends are a very good thing.

The thing is it is about choices. Individuals choose whether or not to
drive, whether or not to use the M6toll or the old M6. With things
like healthcare, there is no choice involved, you either need it or
you don't.

No, it's the exact same argument. Either you take the free option (M6 / NHS)
or the pay-extra option (M6 Toll / Private health care). However, with the
amount of taxes we pay, we should not have to suffer a substandard M6 or
NHS, and we shouldn't even have to consider paying a premium for a decent
service.

This is the heart of the problem, any Government subsidy or tax
effectively takes choice away from individuals, and distorts the market.
In most cases this leads to a sub-optimal allocation of resources.

Yes, which is why private firms build the roads, the govt just pays them to.

The nice thing about tolls is that it automatically takes account of this,
if the people making their local journeys consider their journey
"unimportant" they will be unwilling to pay £2-3. If they long
distance traffic considers its journey important then they will pay
for it. Everyone considers their journey to be "important" or even
"essential". But the proof of the pudding is whether they are
prepared to pay for it.

And what if they can't afford it? A poor man's important journey to a job
interview may have to stay on the M6 because he can't afford to pay the
toll, whereas a rich man's trip to play golf can use the Toll because he's
got bags of spare cash.

wrote:

[someone else had writen:]

Clearly Europeans believe something different, that constructing
motorways is rather like handing dollops of money over to a
select few. This is considered unnacceptable, and hence their
roads are tolled.

Not in Germany, or the UK (until May 1997), the Netherlands, Belgium,
Luxembourg, Denmark, Sweden (and even certain stretches in France, Spain and
Italy - in fact, the whole Italian motorway network south of Naples is FOC).

What was that the OP was saying about "Europe"?

In some countries yes, but then their petrol tax is a lot lower to
compensate. However, Germany's motorways are not tolled, and yet they
have the most comprehensive motorway network in Europe. Why can't we?

Exactly. And our fuel carries a lot more tac than Germany's (especially
diesel).

Our motorways weren't tolled from the start as it was believed that
if you have a road, you may as well let as many people use it as they
want, as there is (was) zero marginal cost of extra cars. This isn't
really the case anymore due to congestion.

Rubbish (to the OP).

Our roads (inc. motorways) were not tolled before May 1997 because we
believe(d) in the freedom of the highway.

Congestion which is due to cars becoming more affordable, hence not
only the rich can afford them; and also women breaking free and
getting their own car after decades of being told to stay at home and
do the cooking. Surely these trends are a very good thing.

He won't agree with that - though he will be torn.

The thing is it is about choices. Individuals choose whether or not
to drive, whether or not to use the M6toll or the old M6. With things
like healthcare, there is no choice involved, you either need it or
you don't.

Nonsense. You can choose whether you bother the doctor for a cold or flu -
or not.

No, it's the exact same argument. Either you take the free option (M6
/ NHS) or the pay-extra option (M6 Toll / Private health care).
However, with the amount of taxes we pay, we should not have to
suffer a substandard M6 or NHS, and we shouldn't even have to
consider paying a premium for a decent service.

Well said.

"JNugent" wrote in message
...
wrote:

"Mark Fry" wrote:

Regarding funding, that would be true if the funding from the
crossing went to pay for more crossings, but this isn't the case.
When the bridge was constructed it a joint venture involving a
company called Trafalgar House, amongst others. Not too long ago
the company controlling the crossing has become a French company
called Le Crossing, so do you think the revenue generated by Le
crossing will be funding more Le Crossings? I doubt it.

And if my costs do increase, I pass them on to the distributor /
shipper, who in turn passes them on to the consumer, which is you!
We are already paying enough taxes, why should we have to pay more.

Errrrmmm, to build more roads?

More tax at the same rate will do that (in spadefuls).

The same roads do not have to built anew every year, do they?



Gotta do something with all this money, haven't we?