In message , David
Cantrell writes

On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 07:01:51PM +0000, Paul Terry wrote:

0845 is not premium rate (unless you have an exceptionally bad telco).

It jolly well is premium rate, if you use a mobile.

Which is why I wrote "Mobile phone companies may vary" in the part that
you conveniently snipped!

--
Paul Terry

In message , at 11:57:29
on Mon, 24 Jan 2011, David Cantrell remarked:

0845 is not premium rate (unless you have an exceptionally bad telco).

It jolly well is premium rate, if you use a mobile.

It's "more expensive" which is not the definition of "Premium Rate".
--
Roland Perry

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at
11:57:29 on Mon, 24 Jan 2011, David Cantrell
remarked:

0845 is not premium rate (unless you have an exceptionally bad
telco).

It jolly well is premium rate, if you use a mobile.

It's "more expensive" which is not the definition of "Premium Rate".

A LOT more expensive, mainly by not being included in packages but also
including higher charge rates where charged.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , at 07:26:45
on Mon, 24 Jan 2011, remarked:

It jolly well is premium rate, if you use a mobile.

It's "more expensive" which is not the definition of "Premium Rate".

A LOT more expensive, mainly by not being included in packages but also
including higher charge rates where charged.

Anything's a lot more than "free" (in a bundle), but it would be
unfortunate if they charged much more per minute than ad-hoc geographic
minutes from the same company. Which seems to be the case with mine
(Virgin): normal calls are 21p/min and 0845 etc[1] are 41p. Although new
users seem to pay 31p & 41p respectively.

[1] What they call "toll rate" numbers.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:23:56PM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:57:29
on Mon, 24 Jan 2011, David Cantrell remarked:
0845 is not premium rate (unless you have an exceptionally bad telco).
It jolly well is premium rate, if you use a mobile.
It's "more expensive" which is not the definition of "Premium Rate".

It's not merely "more expensive". It's "a lot more expensive". It
costs more than several 09whatever numbers do to call from a land line.
Therefore it is premium rate. That's premium rate by sensible
definitions, as opposed to OFCOM's definition.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

It's my experience that neither users nor customers can articulate
what it is they want, nor can they evaluate it when they see it
-- Alan Cooper

In message , at 11:13:36
on Tue, 25 Jan 2011, David Cantrell remarked:
0845 is not premium rate (unless you have an exceptionally bad telco).
It jolly well is premium rate, if you use a mobile.
It's "more expensive" which is not the definition of "Premium Rate".

It's not merely "more expensive". It's "a lot more expensive". It
costs more than several 09whatever numbers do to call from a land line.

I often feel that people have been lulled into a sense of false security
by so many "bundled minutes" plans on mobiles (and fixed line phones
have them too these days). The underlying cost of mobile calls is *much*
greater than landline ones, that's just something we have to live with.
My provider (Virgin PAYG) would charge you 31p a minute to call a
geographic landline, for example.

Therefore it is premium rate. That's premium rate by sensible
definitions, as opposed to OFCOM's definition.

OFCOM's definitions are there for a reason - so that we can all
distinguish between the different kinds of number. And Premium Rate
numbers are there primarily for the revenue stream and have stronger
regulation as a result. It's that aspect which distinguishes them, not
the price as-such.

0845, 0870 etc numbers have fundamentally different characteristics, and
thus a different name.

(If you want a transport analogy it'd be like calling Eurostar a "tube
train". The Chunnel is a tube, isn't it?)
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:30:00AM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

I often feel that people have been lulled into a sense of false security
by so many "bundled minutes" plans on mobiles (and fixed line phones
have them too these days). The underlying cost of mobile calls is *much*
greater than landline ones, that's just something we have to live with.

But there's no reason why calls to 080 numbers can't at least be
included in bundled minutes, aside from profiteering on the part of the
mobile phone company. I don't see any reason why calls to 0845 numbers
can't be included either, perhaps with a multiplier so that each minute
of call "costs" 2 bundled minutes, or whatever, if the costs involved
really are so much higher than calls to, for example, other networks'
mobiles (which *are* included in bundled minutes). Again, that I have
to pay eleventy squillion pence a minute looks like profiteering, on
both the part of the mobile phone companies and TfL.

--
David Cantrell | Cake Smuggler Extraordinaire

Do not be afraid of cooking, as your ingredients will know and misbehave
-- Fergus Henderson

In message , at 11:50:36
on Wed, 26 Jan 2011, David Cantrell remarked:
I often feel that people have been lulled into a sense of false security
by so many "bundled minutes" plans on mobiles (and fixed line phones
have them too these days). The underlying cost of mobile calls is *much*
greater than landline ones, that's just something we have to live with.

But there's no reason why calls to 080 numbers can't at least be
included in bundled minutes, aside from profiteering on the part of the
mobile phone company.

OFCOM is currently consulting on proposals to make 0800 free from
mobiles.

I don't see any reason why calls to 0845 numbers can't be included
either, perhaps with a multiplier so that each minute of call "costs" 2
bundled minutes, or whatever, if the costs involved really are so much
higher than calls to, for example, other networks' mobiles (which *are*
included in bundled minutes).

From my time in the mobile phone industry, the charging scheme tends to
be built around what the billing system will allow you to do. So having
different "consumption rates" of bundled minute is probably not
something they can cope with - otherwise it would probably have been
done by now.

Again, that I have to pay eleventy squillion pence a minute looks like
profiteering, on both the part of the mobile phone companies and TfL.

All calls cost almost zero, on a marginal cost basis. What ends up on
the price list is a complex combination of amortising network build
costs, what other operators charge you at the interconnects, and what
the market will stand.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 10:19:13AM +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

From my time in the mobile phone industry, the charging scheme tends to
be built around what the billing system will allow you to do. So having
different "consumption rates" of bundled minute is probably not
something they can cope with - otherwise it would probably have been
done by now.

Hmmph. From *my* time in the phone industry (admittedly this was mostly
wholesale, with some landlines) the billing system can be very flexible
indeed.

Perhaps they should write some better billing software.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

Good advice is always certain to be ignored,
but that's no reason not to give it -- Agatha Christie

In message , at 11:32:02
on Fri, 28 Jan 2011, David Cantrell remarked:

From my time in the mobile phone industry, the charging scheme tends to
be built around what the billing system will allow you to do. So having
different "consumption rates" of bundled minute is probably not
something they can cope with - otherwise it would probably have been
done by now.

Hmmph. From *my* time in the phone industry (admittedly this was mostly
wholesale, with some landlines) the billing system can be very flexible
indeed.

Perhaps they should write some better billing software.

They do - for example the whole PAYG platform, rather than monthly
subscriptions, was new. Nevertheless, any billing system needs "levers
to pull" (to implement a fancy new charging scheme[1]) and if they
aren't there, the marketing people have to think again.

[1] Brainstorm: maybe something like "all calls to someone you've
already called for more than half an hour that day are half price". Of
course, one you've got the levers in place, you can tinker with the
"half hour" and the "half price" (and perhaps even the "that day",
although I wouldn't put it past the IT people to take that literally and
hard code it in) until the cows come home - but the billing system needs
to support that model.
--
Roland Perry